Hi

We have two cocker spaniel brothers - first off, I know that's a mistake but no-one told us at the time and the thought of splitting them up is horrible to me.  But we've got problem after problem and I'm at my wits end, on the verge of finding new homes for them as I just can't cope.  They've got a number of problems:

Barking

This is only one of the dog's problems really - they both bark when they're going out and when people come to the door which is fair enough as they're excited.  The problem is that one of them barks constantly when he's let out in the garden.  It's not a case of he sees something which makes him bark - night or day as soon as you let him out of the house he runs around barking incessantly.  It drives me mad - and our neighbours needless to say - I wish he'd understand that if he didn't bark he wouldn't get hauled in so soon.

Messing in the House

To be honest I don't know which one has this problem but I'm fed up of it.  They were both toilet trained but it seems like recently they just don't care.  They would stay dry all day, you'll get home, take them out, turn your back for five minutes and they've weed or pooed.  Max, one of them, even cocked his leg up the dishwasher the other day right in front of my husband.  They get out plenty, loads of opportunity to do their business yet they still mess in the house - mostly in the kitchen which is hideous and unhygienic - I've got a 1 year old daughter and don't want to have to deal with that every night - she can't even go in the kitchen I'm so worried she'll pick something nasty up.

Fighting

They never used to have this problem but lately they've been really going for each other.  I know they'd never intentionally hurt any of the family but I'm worried that my daughter will get accidentally caught up it.

They've numerous other issues - pulling on the lead, one of them runs off if you let him off the lead, etc - but they're our dogs - we've had them for three years and I would feel so ashamed if we had to give them up now but honestly, they cause me so much stress.

If anyone has got any tips that would be really great.

Thanks
Freya

Personally, i would be looking at rehoming one of them.

That might sound like ive said that as a quick solution, but in the long term, and especially given that they are fighting, it would be the most sensible answer.

You are really going to struggle to get to the bottom of the heirachy issues (and that is what is causing the fighting and the scent marking in the house) with them both there. Whilst you are doing that you risk things getting worse.

The housetraining issue COULD be sorted whilst they are both there, but again it will be incredibly difficult.

The one that barks when he goes outside. Well he probably finds going into the garden very stimulating. My lurcher does this at times, leaps out of the door barking his head off. He is out on a long lead, and the second he makes a sound he is back in and has to sit for ten seconds, then out again. It gets VERY irritating doing this but he IS getting the message that barking outside means he comes back in.

These, and other problems are the reasons WHY it is a really BAD plan to have littermates together, ESPECIALLY of the same sex, and you will find that even most BREEDERS wouldnt want to run two on together.
I would suggest you see if you can return one to the breeder, however considering that a responsible breeder would never have sold you litter brothers in the first place, i dont fancy your chances THAT highly there.

Em

They're three years old nearly so I don't even know if the breeder is still around. 

I find it hard to imagine our back garden is so stimulating - but then I'm not a dog - the long lead thing might be a good idea.

The difficulty with getting rid of one of them is who do you choose - it feels like choosing between your children.

Thanks for your response.

Freya

To be fair to a possible new owner and make the rehoming more successful I would rehome the least problematic dog.  It would seem the one who doesn't bark. 

Then you will want to start a program of retraining right from scratch as if your dog is a rescue or new puppy.  this includes the housetraining and setting rules like the barking in teh garden foing for walks etc.

The long line sounds a good idea (I use a squirt bottle ) for when they bark outside.  You must ensure that each and everytime he barks outside he is made to come in, then let out as soon as he has responded to command of quiet (he needs to know what quiet means), so quietly praise as soon as he quiets and let him out again, the instant he barks same again.  It does work as I broke a highly exciteable bitch of this habit which had become ingrained (with my first dog).

Take him to training classes and teach him commands so that he is stimulated and forms a link with you being the source of stimulation.

A responsible breeder should be willing to help you rehome your dog at any time in it's life, so do try contacting them.  Failing that get in touch with a Cocker Spaniel breed club adn ask for details of Cocker Rescue who will be the best people to match the dog with often an expereinced cocker owner.

>>The difficulty with getting rid of one of them is who do you choose<<

Don't look on it as getting rid of one of them.  They are obviously not happy together if they fight.  It is making you stressed out and owning a dog should be a pleasure.

I agree re-homing one would be your best option.  You could vet the home and the people or get in contact with the breed club and speak to their rescue people.

If you don't want to go down that road then I think a qualified Animal behaviourist would be needed.  One of the dogs will be the higher ranking one and they will be able to advise how to handle the situation. There is often light at the end of the tunnel if it is handled correctly.  Have a word with your vet about it.

If they are not already neutured, then neuturing one may help, but you really need to seek help first on which one, if you get it wrong then it will get worse.

Good Luck
Sandra

Oh i really feel for you, and i hope you get your problem sorted. Take care. x

hi please think very carefully before a breed rescue we rescued a 2.5 year old bullmastiff and we loved him but he had a lot of problems i mean a lot we tryed for a year but decided a person that was used to the breed may be able to help so i got in touch with bullmastiff welfare she said she had a lady who visited people to check there house she also vet checked people and made sure people had had the breed before ,anyway this girl rang this rescue women recomended [my husband didi not want him to go by this point] but she was on her way she came name dropped constantly,and said we could have her address so we could visit she put the dog in the car jumped in and sdrove off i found out the place she said she lived did not exsist she changed her mobile number so we could not ring the rescue woman had not vet checked her  when i rang the rescue woman she refused to tell us were she lived so all this girl told us was a lie we tryed to get the dog back but the rescue woman just threatened[i cant spell sorry] us with court we offered to pay for a vet to check her without noing were she lived but the girl refused so this set alarm bells off and it should have with the rescue women please think twice before letting someone else rehome your dog i have nightmares over harley and would pay to get him back we even offered to the rescue woman that we would but the girl a puppy but that woman says she cares  i will not give her name but it wasnt b.a.r.k please find your own home then at least you can check on him i have now got a 14 week old puppy but i would still have harley back with doulble the problems sorry for going on but for all the rescue care he could be misstreated dawnxx

hi dawn, have just been reading your post about harley and im sorry to hear what happened,i have seen alot of your posts on here about brock and i hope that he is okay,he sounds lovely, you say alot about showing brock and i was wondering was harley also a pedigree and did you show him?

Hi Freya

I had no problems at all with my 2 cocker litter brothers they got on great, but one was castrated at around 3 years old for medical reasons so maybe that helped.  Get intouch with your vet and ask about castration.  I beleive it does calm them down no end as I have found with one of my other cockers, especially if your don't want to breed with them.

Caz

Thanks for all your reponses.  We're still trying to decide what to do - everytime I think I've resolved to rehome one of them their little doggy faces look up at me and I'm torn all over again.

Freya

Oh Freya, I do feel for you.  You sound like a very caring, sensible owner who wants to do what is right for both dogs.  My two drive me mad at times but, if I had to part with one it would tear me apart.
I wish you well, whatever you decide. :)

Freya,

I wish you luck in whatever you decide - try not to feel guilty, at the end of the day by rehoming one you are doing what is best for the dogs and if in doing so you cope better and they are happier there is absolutely NOTHING to feel guilty about.  You clearly love them but are not able to enjoy them anymore and I'm sure each will revel in one to one attention if the other is not around to spark off problems etc.

Try to look on it as a positive and not a negative choice :)

very best wishes, Teri x

Something similar to this happened to me a few years ago.  We were sold litter brother labs, one black and one yellow.  They were 8 weeks old and totally adorable (as all 8 week pups are).  We persevered with the toilet training, which was a success, and they never fought once, but the problem was "separation anxiety" - something the breeder did not tell me about.

This resulted in three years of total destruction - and I mean serious destruction - of my house.  I was told by more than one breeder (including the one where they came from) that it would only be a couple of years and they would be fine.  Well, it lasted 3 years and then a miracle - it stopped.

There then followed 2 extremely happy years, until, for reasons I have still yet to fathom, it all started again.

At this stage we came to the extremely painful decision to rehome them both.

I cried and cried for weeks - it was so painful, but I knew that we had done the absolute best for "the boys".  One of them went to a young family and the other to a retired couple, both living near Wimbledon common, so I knew they would have a better life. 

In hindsight, I think I was just a tad over the top about them - loved them to death, gave them way too much attention, and consequently paid the price.

I lost touch with their breeder - who moved and did not leave any forwarding address or telephone number.  There are most certainly some unscrupulous breeders out there, so "caveat emptor" (buyer beware) is best remembered when buying pups.  This is not in any way a slur on the many fabulous breeders who are out there, and always do their utmost for pups/new owners at the start and right through their lives.

Freya, I suppose I am really just empathising with you - I know how hard it is for you, but you must now try to put your feelings to one side and do what is best for your dogs.

Good luck - I'll be thinking of you.

Thanks again for all your responses. 

Vicki - we've been through the destructiveness - thankfully at the minute they're pretty good (unless they're out when the post arrives - god help those letter!) - but in our old house they pulled up the carpet, the lino etc - they've been a lot better recently.  I'm sorry you had to rehome your dogs.  I think at the minute I feel like if I rehome them I will never be able to get a dog again with a clear conscience - does that make sense?  I grew up with dogs and my daughter loves the boys but I feel like if I fail these two I won't be a fit owner ever again.

Teri - you're right about looking at is as a positive choice - it would be doing what is better for all of us - my head says that, I've just not convinced my heart yet!

Thanks

Freya

Hi Freya,

>you're right about looking at is as a positive choice - it would be doing what is better for all of us - my head says that, I've just not convinced my heart yet!<

If you're anything like me (most women I think!) food is a great source of comfort in stressfull situations so put a list of all the positive benefits on the fridge door :P  -  then not only can you hit your cake/choc fix but remind yourself at the same time that what you're contemplating - no, strike that, what you're "going to do" - is out of love and in everyone's best interests.

Seriously, let your head rule this one - I'm honestly convinced your heart will quickly follow ;)

Thinking of you all.  Teri x

 

Freya, I also feel for you with htis decission. Its one I was forced into making, not a day goes past where I dont spare a thought for him, he will be 2 this Saturday. Ironic really as Im now in a situation where Im able to give a dog a wonderful life. Im picking up my new pup on Saturday

Hi,
Years ago I had two dogs together, but! not litter mates.The one was a pup,
It lasted a good year and then they started. Barking, fighting, my children
were young then as well, I got concerned that they might get aggresssive'
When the children were around them. After a lot of soul seaching, and tears.
I decided the best thing for everyone concerned was to get the younger one,
rehomed. I loved it so much, I did think it wouldn't settle. But! a decision,
hod to be made. They were both Sam's the dog did settle. The other one lived on
to be over 12 years old. It took a lot of gut's to make the decision.
Best of luck
Denese

Hi Im new to this forum, but had to reply to your letter, have you tried Amichien bonding, my friend tried it with her two, who had most of the problems you have, and is going great with it. I am doing it with my little Tibetan spaniel, and after a few days the differance is amazing, give it a try it does't cost you anything, my problem was the constant barking and pulling on the lead towards other dogs.  I have read on this site someone was really putting Amichien bonding down, but I think its great. In just Three days of starting it when anyone comes in the house instead of constantly barking and jumping up them, (all the while) she now justs sniffs around them then wanders off untill they call her to them, we still have a long way to go but the results so far are great

I've not heard of this rubyjean - could you explain a little bit more about it?

Thanks

I would be interested in hearing more about this to.
Sandie

It's Jan Fennells eating before the dogs etc theory

I've not heard of it - where can I find out more please?

Hi Vicki,

you could buy (or preferably borrow first) Jan Fennel's book "The Dog Listener" - to be honest her methods get very mixed reviews :(  If you do a search on here under her name or the name of the book you'll get a wide range of members' opinions about some of her techniques.  A lot is based on out moded theories about the dog / wolf / human ranking, relationships etc.,  that some behaviourists initially shared agreement with several years ago but have now developed, adjusted and in some cases dumped previous analogies to how these very different species relate and communicate best with each other.

Regards, Teri :)

Thanks Teri - I'll have a look!

Having read your post I realise that life must be very stressful for you at the moment.  You obviously care about the dogs very much or you wouldn't be asking for advice on this forum.  REading between the lines, it may be that you have your hands full with your one year old and the dogs are finding ways of occupying themselves.  Do you have much time to spend with them throughout the day?  Are you able to give them enough exercise to tire them out?  It must be very difficult with a small child to care for and you will know yourself if you are giving them enough of your time.  Like children, if dogs are left to their own devices they will get up to all sorts of mischief.  Cockers, although they are small dogs and make good family pets, they are also extremely clever and require about 1 to 2 hours of free exercise a day (1 hour minimum).  That means off lead and able to hunt, sniff, play and run around to get rid of some of the vast amounts of energy they store up.  If they are unable to do this you will find that they will develop behavioural problems like the ones you are experiencing.  Free running around the garden is not enough, they also need plenty of mental stimulation too to keep their brains tired.  I always say that a tired dog is a well behaved dog!!!  There are two ways that you could deal with this.

If you don't have the time (and energy!!) to spend with them (which I suspect may be the case) then could you employ the services of a good dog walker who can take the dogs away perhaps at the beginning of the day for a long walk to tire them out.  You will then be free to carry out your daily tasks and perhaps take them for a small walk in the afternoon with your baby and the buggy.  Regarding the pulling.  Have you tried a halti?  They are fabulous for control.  I use one on my cocker when I need to have him well behaved and it really works.  They also seem to calm the dog down.  They take a big of getting used to but if you persevere you should be able to walk them very well on the lead.  I have also found that once dogs get to know where they are supposed to walk they seem to just fall into that way of walking. So do give it a try.  If you can't handle them in the afternoon perhaps your husband/partner could take them out when he gets home at night.  I think you would find a huge difference if the dogs were getting adequate exercise as they would be too tired to get up to any mischief.

Re the barking.  If the dog gets all his enjoyment in the garden then this will be something he looks forward to.  If his enjoyment is happening elsewhere, you will probably find that the garden is less of a problem for you.

Re the messing in the house.  Well, it could just be because of the above.  If they are left to get on with it, they will.  Dogs are like that you know, you have to have eyes in the back of your head.

I would try the above.  To be honest I think that if you are having problems with finding the time to spend with the dogs then employing the services of a behaviourist is going to be a waste of money as this will involve a behaviour programme which will take up lots of time!!!!  Again, rehoming one of them - well you still have problems with the other one and unless you have the time it is the same old story.  Nothing will change.

Lastly(!), you will know yourself if you can afford a dog walker because they are not cheap and if you have the time to spend with your dogs.  If you really feel that you don't have because your time is being taken up with the little one then perhaps it would be a good idea to rehome the dogs.  They can't be happy having no time spent with them and really a dogs that are behaving like yours are showing all the symptoms of stress.  I wish you the best of luck.  It won't be easy but in the end you are the only one that can make any decision.

Hi I see some people have already explained a little bit about Jan Fennells Amichien bonding, but have they tried it?  I am only on the 4th day and have already seen a huge differance in her especially when we go out, don't knock it before you try it.  You have to put all four princables into place,

REUNITING- THE 5 MINUTE RULE, this I must admit is very hard to start with but itdoes get easier, whenever you reunite with your dogs do not make eye contact do not say get down or anything, after the 5 mins is up call dog or dogs by name to you give small treat, fuss play or what ever.
Then there, is the gesture eating , prepare the food, let them see you then eat a biscuit, then put the food down, pick up after 15mins if not eaten
If you want to know more let me know.
My dog would bark as soon as she would go in the garden, but now the differrence is amazing, she comes as soon as she is called, goes back out and then doesnt usualy carry on . So yes I would buy the book THe practical dog listener is her second book and is more explanitary, but they are both good.And as you read it it all slots into place, it will take time but it doesnt cost you anything (except the price of the book, or put Amichien bonding into google and get some information there.

Before I did my Diploma in Dog Psychology I tried Jan Fennell's theories on my dogs.  When I applied for my diploma I informed them that I had Jan Fennell's book and they told me to throw it away.  They advised me that the book had done vast amounts of harm to dog/owner relationships.  The book takes a lot of John Fisher's and John Rogerson's views (which have now changed - although JOhn Fisher has passed away) and marketed them well.  Jan Fennell also did her research for the book by studying captive wolves in Canada for 3 weeks.  Captive wolves behave very differently to wolves in the wild and, anyway, there is now evidence to show that dogs evolved from one species of wolves and probably are more like the wild dogs of Africa.  In effect, in the wild, wolves ensure that all the young, mothers and less able get their food before the alpha.  This would put paid to all of Jan Fennell's theories.  Things have moved on since this book was published and I would recommend Jean Donaldsons "The Culture Clash" rather than Jan Fennell.  There is also a very good article in this month's "YOur Dog" which carries on from last month's articles about dominance theories etc.  I must say that most professional dog trainers/behaviourists (although not all) have now moved away from the dominance theories so it would be worthwhile to look for more up to date books.  Regarding how Jan Fennell's theories work.  Well, I have a two-way partnership between me and my dogs.  It is based on mutual respect.  My dogs get adequate exercise, good food, a nice place to sleep, plenty of human company and consistency in their day to day lives.  It works for me.  I have 4 well behaved, well socialised dogs that I can take anywhere.

I am sorry if this post does not agree with others but I wonder why you would want a dog if you are going to torture it by eating first, ignoring it etc., etc., etc.,  Also, you don't hear much about Jan Fennell any more but there are lots of alternative views around.  I think she was just good at marketing herself.  Believe me, there are lots of good books out there that would be more informative and bring about a relationship built on mutual respects.  I for one do not want to be "dominant" over my dogs.  They are my pets and my friends and I love them dearly.  If I had a child, I would feel the same.

Can we please remember that the laws of libel apply to the internet

Gemspan

Well, I have a two-way partnership between me and my dogs.  It is based on mutual respect.  My dogs get adequate exercise, good food, a nice place to sleep, plenty of human company and consistency in their day to day lives.

Well said!! a statement that perfectly describes how to own a dog without all the psycho babble!!

Gemspan

Well, I have a two-way partnership between me and my dogs.  It is based on mutual respect.  My dogs get adequate exercise, good food, a nice place to sleep, plenty of human company and consistency in their day to day lives.

Well said!! your statement repeated above perfectly describes how to own a dog without all the psycho babble!!