Hi Lottie

I've just posted about the Gentle Controller on the Halti thread, but I'll just give you a cut & paste link to the Gentle Controller on an Agility website - you might find this would be helpful for your GSD.

Just cut & paste this http://www.agilitywarehouse.com/product_detail.cfm?id=156.

It might be of assistance to you.

Margot

Thanks Margot.

I am hoping the qualified trainer that I take my terrier to will be free for me to commission a private home visit next week.  She trains using treats whereas the large dog school I take Sasha to (the GSD) doesn't, I just hate all this check chain lead jerking. I trust her ideas and advice as she is C&G trained and used to train guide dogs for the blind, her own golden retreiver is impeccably behaved, and she had her from 7 months old.

I will follow your link and keep you posted, since one of the things she had suggested was that she'd help me fit a halti on Sasha when she visited me at home.

Hi Lottie AFC

The Micro IDT is a DT systems collar, it has 15 levels, instantly selectable by a click stop dial.They are quite a small unit both on the reciever, which is on the collar and the handheld transmitter. DT systems are better collars at the top end of their range the the bottom, which the Micro-IDT is.

For a GSD I would suggest and recomend a Dogtra 200 gold or maybe better a Dogtra 1200NC (which I have), alternativly and Dogtra 1200NCP which has a vibrator option, don't be mislead by the vibrator as they can alarm some dogs, the static stim does not.

Dogtra are a linear system which means you can turn them up and down like you turn a rehostat or a light dimmer switch. The 1200 is a very robust system and I like the handheld transmitter because its just right for ease of use.

The smaller ones-Dogtra 200 gold and DT-Micro are a bit to small for my own choices andf ease of use and comfort are VERY important factors when choosing an e-collar, my compliments some people just go out and 'buy a shock collar' without any idea why they bought what they bought. Both Dogtra collars have 100 levels and are much more versatile and able collar. Dogtra and Tri Tronics are the worlds best collars.

You may have been mislead prior to your post by suggstions that e-collars work from 'intensity' and shocks etc. They do not work from intensity or shocks, they work from sensation + accumulation.

I really dont have time to write more right now but a couple of days ago I put some original charts and a section from a paper on them by someone. The charts are messed up but if you copy and past the piece (its an extract) to word the charts seem to come out ok. It explains how they work and also what 'static stimulation' is.

Just click the link below and scroll to my post:
Davedee 04.04.05 20:54 GMT
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=66132;pg=3

Lottie, are you taking the GSd to a class that uses check chains to jerk her? If so, that could be the problem! ;)

I did notice further up, that you state you show her you are the boss.  Not sure how you do that, you seem to be a sensitive person, but it may be that you are being given misleading information on how to train a GSd.

First of all, if you have had her just 3 weeks, your relationship won't even have bonded. I feel you just need some help with a good reputable trainer and you will be fine. Please, avoid this yank and jerk tupe club and get her to someone who understands dogs. The other trainer you mentioned sounds good, esp. if she/hehas a well behaved dog of their own. If you want to PM me, (use the message facility at the top of the page) and let me know where you are, i may be able to recommend someone else in your area if you feel that would help.

Hth a bit
Lindsay
X

I forgot, there are no reputable vibration only collars on the market. If you ever come across any I'd advise avoid them. The radio signals would be no good from  obscure makes that might say vibration or pager only (if there are any) and the vibration almost invariably alarms dogs, as I said static does not I have seen both many times, vibs (pagers) are not so bad if the static is introduced first.

Davedee, if you've read the posts you'll know that Lottie does NOT want any collar that uses electric shocks, so it would be more helpful if you only suggested those which don't have that option at all. Otherwise you're only muddying the waters. There's at least one humane vibrating collar on the market.
:)

Davedee

The other thread that you started to take over have been locked.   Please go away and play with your ecollar on yourself.   We want to give informtion, not indoctrination.  You've alrady discredited yourself enough in our eyes, allying yourself with someone who has been turned off more boards than most.

Margot

I just noticed you have been given some incorrect info, which will mislead.

Quote: "These collars dont vibrate even when set to the lowest levels its a static shock not a vibration but as has been said you can get pager collars that do vibrate. HTH"

The above is non-factual information. The vibration and static facilities on any collars which have both facilities function totaly independently of each other. If you have a Dogtra with NCP in the model identification it has vibration or static facilities, if you do not want to use static you do not have to use it.

Someone else said that the US versions are better because of the radio signal. That's good advice, they are much better and Dogtra and Tri-Tronics are the top in the radio technology but Tri Tronics does not make vibration facility collars.

I also recommend importing from US for that reason. The same applies to trackers. You pay VAT and a couple of % customs duty, with the exchange rates at the current level you pay about the same or maybe a bit less.

Denis wrote: I forgot, there are no reputable vibration only collars on the market.

Reputable to who Denis? You?

It was these people coming out of the woodwork again that was the reason I was unhappy when I saw this thread last night. Now I suppose we will have to endure more of the same rubbish!

Denis wrote: Someone else said that the US versions are better because of the radio signal.

Where did I say better Denis?

So the Micro -iDT vibrates does it?????
I thought all these collars stim the dog????
Oh and if they do Vibrate there no good after all you just stated so in your post

It's really a shame that people have to engage in personal attacks.  These forums exist so that a free exchange of ideas can take place.  The Internet is often referred to as "The Information Superhighway."  But if people are personally attacked that exchange can't take place and information that people should have so they can make an informed decision, isn't available.  

The original poster has stated clearly that she isn't interested in any collars that give electric shocks, whatever jargon term is used. So let's put all those that do use those out of the discussion entirely, as they're not what the OP wants.

The original poster has a problem that's been going on for quite some time.  In her own words "the more outrageous she is in her complete ignorance of me when we are out."  It's very possible that she'll soon get fed up with the dog's behavior, and rather then put the dog to sleep or take him back to the rescue, she may feel that an Ecollar is the best answer to her continuing problem. 

It's best if she has the information to make an informed decision when that time comes, not just information from those who have never used the tool, never even felt a low level stim from one or have only seen it misused. 

Lou you didn't respond to my last post on the other thread - I'm not going to repeat it here, but for the information of Lottie, the original poster, here is a link to it - you will see that Lou does seem to sing a different song at times:-

Here is the link http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=481549#pid481549

Margot

I responded to all reasonable posts (ignoring ones that just made a sarcastic comment)  that were sent until the topic was locked.  You'll notice that there are MANY people there who don't know anything about modern use of the Ecollar and I'm just one guy.  It takes me a bit of time to respond to several people who are posting misinformation of asking questions.  The link you posted here was one such response to a question that was asked of me.  If you'll post the link to your question I'll be happy to answer it.  My "song" has been the same all along.  If you think it's changed it's because you choose to misinterpret what was written.  Try asking for clarification if you don't understand something or disagree, and you'll get the information. 

QUOTE:The smaller ones-Dogtra 200 gold and DT-Micro are a bit to small for my own choices andf ease of use and comfort are VERY important factors when choosing an e-collar, my compliments some people just go out and 'buy a shock collar' without any idea why they bought what they bought. Both Dogtra collars have 100 levels and are much more versatile and able collar. Dogtra and Tri Tronics are the worlds best collars

**

Must make sure they are easy to use of course, wouldn't want anyone holding the remote control to feel uncomfortable would we? Added bonus is 100 levels to be able to play around with.

Mind boggles!!!!!!!!!!

Dogs are trained (or they should be) not worked by remote control.

hi guys...pager collars are a fascinating effective and humane tool..this type training was devolped in the american field where the need to be able to communicate at a distance was crucial.it is very misunderstood here and abroad.i have used them on hundreds of dogs and can tell you when used properly produces dramatic results.the nick is a pre timed nano second that contarcts the muscles .not ''shocks'' the dog.people attempt the same thing with prong or chain collars  but the muscles contract then in an attempt to protect the windpipe from damage..the key is finding an experienced trainer which may be difficult there but i can assure used properly it is a powerful tool .and not something used in punishment based fashion       http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedience/index.html  http://www.dobbsdogs.com/articles/pdj28.htm

Dobbs dogs rings a bell - isn't he the trainer on one of the Dogtra videos? I believe he uses what i consider to be absolutely disgusting training tables to teach retrieve.
Not a lot of humane training going on there.Sorry but he's hardly anyone to quote as someone to refer to!

Lindsay

Quote: I believe he uses what i consider to be absolutely disgusting training tables to teach retrieve.
Not a lot of humane training going on there.

** It is the same one Lindsay. A bit of searching around the site link given will turn up how Mr Dobbs advocates 'table training'. Not nice.

Kelly McKoy, according to the link to the pager collar recommended for deaf dogs, you're describing a different type of collar. You seem to describe one which makes the dog's muscles contract involuntarily; the one mentioned before doesn't at all.
:)

I think you need to start again with this dog. Whatever methods you have been using to show her you are boss have clearly not had the desired effect on her.

She sounds very nervy, unsure and the barking and approaching other dogs etc is a sign of this.

IF she understood that you were the boss and you are there to protect her and make tough decisions for her, then she would feel less ofa  need to do this. She doesnt, so she carrys on.

I would suggest you go back to the beginning and give her some damn good reasons to both trust and respect you, and DONT put her in situatiosn where she feels scared or the need to protect herself until she trusts you and would rather turn to you than take on the world on her own.

Em

deleted

Actually, while the dial is marked in 100 increments, there are 200 levels available.  I was consulted as to how the dials should be marked.  I picked 0-100 to make it an easier concept for those who use the metric system to understand. 

As far as comfort of the user, it's best if whatever tool is used feels comfortable in the user's hand. 

I don't know what it means for a dog to be "trained not worked by remote control."  The Ecollar is a training device.  It allows the owner to teach the dog what to do and well as to teach him what not to do.  Not all tools allow this.  I have no idea how to work a dog by "remote control.  Can you explain what you mean by this. 

As Jeangenie pointed out, the original poster did say they were not  interested in "Ecollars" so let's not let this thread get ruined by yet another discussion on Electric collars :rolleyes:  as it's not fair on the OP.

Lindsay

QUOTE: nick is a pre timed nano second that contarcts the muscles .not ''shocks'' the dog.

**OK Lou, let's say we accept this summary of how the collar works. If we do, then your way of training, say a recall, where the 'stim' is continuous and is only switched off by compliance by the dog (ie returning to owner) means that the dog's muscles are contracted to the point of, at the very least, strong discomfort which can only be relieved by going back to the owner who has applied the means of contraction. Me thinks, not a good basis for a relationship.

Remote control? Automatic obedience by means of a remote method of applying discomfort was what I meant by it.

i still cant see how it works without pain

It doesn't Michelle, not really - but supporters will spend endless hours trying to convince you that it does!

Sometimes the discomfort is minor but the dog certainly knows what it means. I saw a video of Fred Hassen. The Dogtra rep has said he was a good trainer - not a pleasant video to watch as the dogs were rescue pit bull types and one dog was sure the human being used as a distraction in Recall was causing his pain, so he tried to appease that person - it was frankly pitiful.

The dog had no idea what it was supposed to do.

You can just imagine someone thinking "that dogs disobedient" and upping the levels etc.

Just one example of how it can be stressful to the dog even in the supposed nicey nicey way.

Lindsay
X

Here we have the age-old discussion of "pain."  Pain is a continuum that ranges from extreme, "I can't stand that another second!" to mild discomfort, "It's cold out, I think I need a sweater."  The Ecollar, as I advocate its use, is at the bottom end of that scale. 

As to Fred Hassen, I'm not a fan of his or what he does.  If you do a search for his name you'll find many sites where I've debated against his use of high level stim with the Ecollar.  Some of those discussion have become quite heated and unpleasant.  That may give you some idea about how I feel about causing pain to dogs.  I'll be happy to send anyone some links to those conversations.  If you're interested; send me a PM or an email. 

Fred's use of the Ecollar is not anywhere near mine.  I'd never call what he does "nicey nicey."  Please don't associate what I do with what he does.  We're not even close. 

Please just GO AWAY.   We do not wish to hear any more - either from you orfrom Davedee Dozy Beaky Mitch & Tich & Dennis.    Just take your e-collars and apply them to yourselves.

First, that's not a quote from me.  I'd suggest that you ask the person who wrote it for clarification.  I almost never use the "nick" mode in training. 

Second, Actually it's an excellent basis for a relationship.  The dog learns that the person it's being trained with, usually the owner, is a place of safety.  Since the stim occurs when the dog is away from the owner, and stops as soon as the dog begins to move towards the owner, the owner become the protector of the dog,  It's his presence that bring both physical and emotional comfort.  He makes the discomfort stop just by "being there." 

Third, there's nothing "automatic" about OB that's learned with an Ecollar any more than there is by OB that's learned with a Halti or a clicker.  It's a learned behavior.  When the behavior is learned and then proofed, the Ecollar can be removed as with any other training tool and only reapplied when the behavior backslides, as it will with any dog and any tool. 

Quote: Actually it's an excellent basis for a relationship.  The dog learns that the person it's being trained with, usually the owner, is a place of safety.  Since the stim occurs when the dog is away from the owner, and stops as soon as the dog begins to move towards the owner, the owner become the protector of the dog

** shock, horror,    .... but Lou, if the 'stim' is so gentle that it makes young children giggle when they experience it, why would the dog need a place of safety and a protector ???

I've not found a dog that giggles when it feels the stim.  Children do and I use it to counteract the nonsense that people spew that it has to hurt to be effective. 

Every dog that I've come across finds it uncomfortable and wants it to shut off.  When they're guided towards the owner, it does.  When you're outdoors and it's a bit too cold for you, you go inside and get a sweater.  Same thing, the sweater protects you from the discomfort of the cold.  In this case the owner protects the dog from the discomfort of the stim. 

Quote: In this case the owner protects the dog from the discomfort of the stim. 

*** Let's hope the dog never associates the owner with the 'stim' then otherwise I presume it would never trust its owner again

I've put Ecollars on thousands of dogs and never once has any dog ever associated anything but its own behavior with the stim. 

The association is made with the change that occurs.  Since the owner is present the entire time, the dog doesn't associate the stim with him.  What IS different is that the distance between the dog and the handler (in the recall, for example) is reduced.  Reducing this distance is what the dog associates the stim with.  And as he moves towards the handler, the stim stops and he's made comfortable.  So going towards the handler becomes a pleasurable sensation. 

When a dog is puppy and no distractions are present, this can be done with food, play or toys.  But as he grow and becomes interested in other things and explores his world, those lose their influence, particularly for a highly driven dog.  This is when many owners discover that they don't have the recall that they thought they had. 

I understood Lou that you use these gadgets for everyday training of basic commands?

So, I see where your logic is in respect of the recall, but wouldn't subsequent teaching of other commands means that the dog would associate the stim with the handler? I believe that a dog is not as unreasoning as some obviously think he is. There's no way of knowing this, of course. Greater minds than both you and I have differing opinions on this subject, but I would think that a dog would soon come to learn that stims only occur when the handler is in the vacinity. Training by use of this uncomfortable (at best) gadget is, therefore, training by coercion which the dog knows is driven by the handler. Not a sound basis for a good relationship in my view.

Hi Lottie

You don't say how long you have actually had your dog?

'Letting her know who is boss', can you explain this in a little more depth?

You've got a young adolescent dog that is probably  unsure of her world at the moment. I think you may be adding to her confusion by your application of a rank reduction programme, particularly if this is compounded by force methods of training.

If the training classes you are attending are advocating these methods, look for another where they will show you ways to focus your girl on you and ways to help her to trust you. You may find that this alone helps to lessen the problems you are encountering. If not, a good trainer will be able to guide you in ways to help your girl, but they can only do this when they get to meet her and see what the problem is. No matter how well you explain her reactions to different situations, it's only possible for a trainer to see for themselves what those reactions are as it's so easy to miss something out that can be crucial for working out the best way to help her.

Using force will only mask the symptoms and won't deal with the cause and it's the cause that needs work to sort out.

I am off to training in a moment so I can't make this a long post.

I am not aggressive to Sasha in any way, and do not shout at her etc. The most she gets is a deep and firm command from me.  By using the term 'showing her who is boss' I meant not treating her like a baby and giving her lavish and unneccessary attention etc. I go through doors before her and make her sit before I feed her / put on her lead etc etc. Just generally get her to see me as top dog rather than allow her to dictate to me. I suppose I just mean I am fair and firm with boundaries. This is what the behaviouralist told me when I got Bobby (my terrier who had been baby-ed by his previous owners)

I have called the treat based trainer and left her a message because I am now wondering if the change in behaviour is due to me implimenting the training methods by the rescue place I got her from - they do use the check chains etc.  I am not comfortable with that and have asked the oher trainer (Lorri) to call me for a home visit.

I've posted this on the board as I just want to keep people informed. 

Thanks to those for your very informative help, and advice.

Charlotte

Good for you Lotti!

Margot

michelled 06.04.05 15:41 GMT
i still cant see how it works without pain

Davedee
I posted the simplest and quite detailed explanation I have ever seen on the other post, I again linked it on P1 and suggested anyone Lottie or anyone who wants to get a good understanding copies it into word and reads it, done that way it will not take more than 5 mins if you read it you just might "see how it works without pain "-

Because it was all squashed up on the post I first posted it on it makes for tedious reading, but if you want to read it in word here's the link again. I'd suggest you leave the charts and go back to them after reading part 2 of Carthys chapter. Oh, by the way, dogs cannot be trained by pain.

Just click the link below and scroll to my post:
Davedee 04.04.05 20:54 GMT
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=66132;pg=3