Another large dog owner over the park has suggested to me that I should get one of these Micro-iDT Training Collars for my large GSD.  She's a 9-10 month old rescue dog.

I currently take her to dog training, but the longer I have had her and the more settled she feels the more outrageous she is in her complete ignorance of me when we are out.  I have had GSD's before and even helped out with rescue some years ago, I have done all the 'letting her know who's boss' routine; However, she has now started barking furiously and approaching anything and everything whilst on walks, even things that never used to bother her previously.  It's very menacing for anyone other than myself who she's badgering.

I walk her with the terrier if I have company on the walk to assist with handling, or if I am walking alone, I just take her.

Some of you will remember I persevered for 6-8 tough weeks of no sleep with my terrier and never resorted to an anti-bark collar.  The only way I eventually kept my terrier quiet was pervseverance and then to combat the very early mornings (1st light) place his puppy crate in a darkened place in the hallway.  So using external aid like this is not a knee jerk reaction.

I have looked this Micro-iDT Training Collar up on the net and am really unsure about it.  I wonder if it is a tad extreme for my dog at this stage? I don't even know if they work, or actually how severe they are.

Your opinions please?

Another  Electric collar post! No thanks!

Thanks for the judgement. You have made me really cross.

I deliberately mentioned the fact that I refused to even use the citronella collar on my terrier because I didn't like the thought of it.

As for posting about this particular item here I am trying to seek the truth about these collars, because from what little I can find out I am led to believe I can set the collar to a vibration setting which I took to believe that no shock will be administered to the dog.

It is in clarification of this that I come here for advice, as I don't want to shock my dog if this is what the collar does.

Well, at least you know what I think of electric shock collars. If you dont want to hear what people think then dont ask the question. After the thread on here yesterday I would have thought you would have known what the answer would be!

I have no problem with your opinion on the collars, it was your misjudgement of me that I objected to.

I had not seen the previous thread until after I had posted, and anyway I am still unclear as to whether you can get harmless vibrating collars that would work in a humane way and distract.

I would have also thought it possible that one could express an opinion in an eloquent way.

You can get "Vibrating" collars, normally called "Pager collars" which function similar to a mobile phone in "Silent mode" They can be very useful and something I have no objections to at all.

Regards, John

Thank you, this is the information I was seeking.  I didn't want to buy the wrong thing, thinking it worked one way, when in fact it worked in conflict with my beliefs as a pet owner.

Dogtra offers Ecollars that give both electronic stim and have a vibration only mode.  If you only want the vibration (they call it a pager) then you just push that button.  But it's been my experience that many dogs find the vibration very aversive and some are even frightened by it.  There's a much more extreme response from them than they have to a low level stim.  Since the vibration isn't adjustable, as is the level of stim, you can't set it to exactly what your dog needs, where he first feels it. 

Unfortunately the collar you mention is more than a vibrating collar, and can be used to give a continuous shock. It isn't something I'd want to see used on any dog, let alone one that isn't exactly calm to begin with. No reflection on you, but I think you've been given poor advice and should consider another sort of collar. Good luck.
:)

It's hardly unfortunate except to those who oppose the use of Ecollars.  It's been my experience that usually those folks either have absolutely no experience with the tool or they've only see it used as a punishment-only device.  It's easier to use than most people will admit. 

As far as using one on a dog that's "not calm" you'll find that it has a calming effect.  I've used them on highly fearful (to the point of aggression) dogs and had great success. 

The only poor advice I've seen has come from those who condemn Ecollars.  Jeangenie have you ever felt a low level stim from an Ecollar? 

I've felt extreme low-level static electric shocks from similar devices - not enough to make muscles contract - and it was uncomfortable and unpleasant. So I'm not going to risk making a dog feel the same way.

Me too, JG, even if it is set as low as "relaxation", "tickle" or "stim(sic)" (or whatever euthemism one might use) such that it didn't hurt the only way that it would cause a strong willed dog to react is if it serves to remind the dog of the occasions when a stronger electric shock had been used, the reminders are always going hand in hand with a previous cruelty.
Those who sell these implements seem to keep bringing it up but I don't know why we give them publicity of air time :rolleyes:  In the UK the public were horrified when it emerged, due to the terrible death of a dog, that some police forces were using physical punishment to train their dogs, they would not tolerate it and things had to change so I'm pretty sure these things will never catch on in the mainstream of UK dog owning.

The first statement made is quite untrue.  It's enough that it's mildly unpleasant for a dog to want to make it stop.  I've worked many dogs on Ecollars that have NEVER had a "stronger electric shock."  You simply don't understand how I use the tool and until you do, you'll probably continue to make misleading statements such as this one. 

I haven't brought up this topic on this forum or any other EVER.  I've only responded to the questions or statements of others. So your second statement is also quite untrue.  The Essex incident you mention had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with any kind of training device at all and your statement is horribly misleading.  That dog was kicked to death. 

As far as catching on, just one manufacturer (and there are at least four brands available in the UK) tells me that they're selling about 50,000 a year. 

I would not consider doing anything even mildly physically unpleasant to my dog.
The OP made it clear before you joined the thread that they were not interested in a shock collar so there was no need for you to bring the subject up.
I wonder how many of the 50000 bought a product not appreciating what it was due to the euphemisms commonly used to describe electric shock, certainly the OP could have made that error if she had not been put in the picture.

Do you realise that 50,000 is not far short of half the dogs born in the UK in one year? This means, according to you, that half the people in the UK are using them! I THINK NOT!!!!!!!

So the answer to my question is "No, you haven't felt the stim from an Ecollar."  That's what I thought, and it's usually the case with people who are opposed to Ecollar use.  Transferring their feelings from one device to another usually doesn't work well.  Stims from other devices while similar, are not the same.  But in any case, people have different responses to the stim from those other devices.  At low levels I find them relaxing and have often fallen asleep while they're going on. 

As I've said earlier, when children feel the stim from an Ecollar at the level that they first perceive it, they giggle.  I have a hard time thinking that I'm causing much "discomfort and unpleasantness" to a dog if the same thing makes children giggle.  It's about the same level of pain as a flea bite. 

My husband has a degree in electronics next time I see him I will ask him if there are different types of electicity :rolleyes: other than voltage levels of course.

No there aren't different type of electricity but there are many ways of delivering it. 

Electrical stimulus is the same (apart from degree of voltage) no matter what device generates it, so in answer to your question "Yes, I have felt an electrical stimulus".

That wasn't my question but this is a typical comment from someone who has never used an Ecollar and opposes their use.  It's commonly called begging the question.  And besides anything else, you're quite wrong as long as we're talking about Ecollars. 

While there is only one kind of electricity, there are scores of ways of delivering it.  If the contact points are very far apart, more nerves will be activated and it will have an entirely different "feel."  If the pulse rate, the rate at which the stim turns off and on, is different, there's an entirely different "feel" to it.  if the contact points are very large, as in the pads used in physical therapy, there's an entirely different "feel" to it than if the contact points are very small as they are on an Ecollar. 

Why is this important?  Because it's what the dog is feeling that's important!  If I was causing pain, rather that merely discomfort the dogs would let me know.  Many dogs will suffer silently with chronic pain.  But the sudden onset of pain, particularly that from an Ecollar that's set too high, gives the same reaction from almost all dogs.  They jump and make noise. 

>But the sudden onset of pain, particularly that from an Ecollar that's set too high, gives the same reaction from almost all dogs.  They jump and make noise. 

If Ecollars are capable of causing pain like that then until they're adapted to make that impossible I'm sure anyone who actually respects dogs would consider them to be cruel, and their use should be vehemently opposed.

I'll agree just as soon as Haltis, leashes, collars of all kinds and clickers can be set to do this as well.  ANY device can be abused and can cause a dog pain.  This isn't limited to Ecollars.  ANY device can be misused and can cause a dog pain.  This isn't limited to Ecollars. 

There are many statements made by those who oppose Ecollars, such as this one, that make just as much sense if you remove the word "Ecollar" and insert (any other training tool). 

It's impossible to set an Ecollar so that it can't cause pain.  Different dogs need different working levels and at times the same dog will need a higher or lower level, depending on what's going on. 

In any case, someone who wants to hurt or abuse a dog doesn't need to spend the hundreds of dollars that quality Ecollars cost.  They can use the leash that they already have, a stick or a boot.  In fact in one of the worst cases of dog abuse ever in your country, the Essex Incident, a dog was kicked to death. 

>It's impossible to set an Ecollar so that it can't cause pain.

Any other training tool (haltis, leads, collars, clickers [how on earth do you cause pain with a clicker - poke it in the dog's eye?]) can be 'set' not to cause pain. In fact, they're purposely designed not to cause pain. Unlike your collars.

Enough said.

EXACTLY!  I was present when a clicker trainer became frustrated and threw her clicker at her dog.  It struck him in the eye.  I'd rather take the highest level of stim that an Ecollar has than to be hit in the eye by a clicker. 

Yawwnn

That's hardly the fault of the clicker, is it? :rolleyes:

I didn't say that it was.  It's a clear case of misuse, bordering on abuse.  BUT since any tool can be misused or abused, to rail against the tool, rather than how it's used is illogical. 

There's a world of difference between a tool which is capable of causing pain when misused, and one that is specifically designed to be capable of causing pain during 'normal' usage.

Ecollars were originally invented so that trainers whose dogs were chasing game, instead of hunting birds could cause the dogs pain to break them off the chase.  Those tools had one setting, very high and an on and off switch. 

However the tool has grown in sophistication so that they can now be turned down so low that no person and no dog can feel the stim.  That allows the trainer to slowly turn it up so that it can be used at the level where the dog first perceives the stim.  That's where I work and that's where I train people to work.  Nowadays Ecollars are designed to allow them to be used to cause discomfort rather than pain. 

But it really doesn't make any difference, it's how a tool is used, not what it was originally designed for, that determines if it's acceptable or not.  Many common implements were originally designed to cause pain or kill before they were modified into the form we see them in today.  Hammers were used to kill game long before they were used to build homes.  Spears were designed to kill animals for food long before they were modified to be used in the Olympics. 

I get the feeling that Mr Castle does not know what a clicker is JG!

Have a look at:-

http://www.ukwebpages.co.uk/deafdogs/petpager.htm

These collars are principally aimed at deaf dogs but can be useful with any dog who needs something to catch his attention.

Regards, John

I didn't see this post John, I have replied to you further up the thread.  I wasn't aware the thread could be interrupted and responded to higher up.

I will check the vibrating collar out, on the link you have kindly provided.  Have you any idea how effective they are?

As to effectivness, Some American friends swear by them for dogs who tend to fixate on something and go deaf to commands. Of course, the ones they use are manufactured over there. I personally have never used one so really can't say. As you probably know, some mobile phones really shake, others are not so effective. Same applies to these. Also the range varies. The Americans do not have the same limits on the strength of radio signals we do. The only thing you can do is chat to these people. I found another site which has the same pager collar for £20 cheaper but I dont know if vat is charged on top so it could be that the price is the same! Do a search on Google for Pager Collars and you will see several links.

Regards, John

It's been my experience that vibrating collars are great with many dogs when they're first introduced.  Some dogs ignore them right from the start though and there's no way to predict beforehand if your dog will be one of those.  If you get one I'd suggest that you get one that the seller will allow you to return if your dog ignores it. 

It can be trained as a secondary reinforcer, just like a clicker but if your dog is ignoring you now, I doubt that this will have much effect. 

Many people train their dogs that the vibration means "look at me" and then they give the dog a hand signal, but if he's at the ignoring stage, this too is a waste of time. 

I know that you don't want "to be cruel" to your dog, but if he gets off the leash and is running towards a busy street, I don't think the slight discomfort that an Ecollar will cause him to be "cruel" if it saves his life. 

Unfortunately Lottie your timing is just a little out this has been debated at great length this very weekend and you will find that apart from acouple of people that supported there use without being able to be honest about how they work most people here are against them do a quick search for training collars and you will find the locked thread. :)

Satincollie I had just started to read the locked thread and was actually on my way to delete my own post, but when I returned there had been the initial response.

I am really appreciative of the way you've taken on board my intention with my original post, and wanted to thank you, for your understanding.  I take it from your post that the so-called vibrating ones are not actually humane after all, as if people can't be honest on how they work, I assume it's all pain based?

I never raise a hand to any of my pets, or my children for that matter, and to cause compliance out of fear and not respect was exactly what I wanted to avoid.

Hence asking the question. 

It's just unfortunate that I didn't see the other debate before posting mine - I was however still under the impression that some collars could be used in a non pain way and was seeking clarification on the vibration feature (ie was it low level shock).

I don't want people here to get the wrong impression of me, as I am a responsible loving pet owner.  I found it very upsetting that someone else would think otherwise (especially after the way I dealt with my terrier over the barking - I almost lost the roof over my head for goodness sake and I still did not use any aversion therapy on him to stop him barking).

These collars dont vibrate even when set to the lowest levels its a static shock not a vibration but as has been said you can get pager collars that do vibrate. HTH

Aaaahhhhh I see satincollie.  Thanks for the advice and information, so collars do exist and can vibrate in a humane manner - do you know if they work? 

Also what does the HTH stand for?

http://www.ukwebpages.co.uk/deafdogs/petpager.htm
pinched from John's post
HTH is hope that helps

:)

Thank you so much

I'm one of the people who support the use of Ecollars.  As far as not "being able to be honest about how they work" I have no idea what you're referring to.  I answered every question posed to me until the thread was locked.  I'm told that it was locked because it was getting "too difficult to read" that it would be "branched" and then opened.  But until that occurs, I'll answer any questions right here. 

I hope that this time people will remain polite and professional, instead of engaging in personal attacks. 

Right then honest eh what is a stim?

"Stim" is a slang word, shortened from "stimulation," and describes the electrical current that flows between the contact points on an Ecollar.  (Other than the pager (or vibration) mode.) 

It's in common use on lists where Ecollars are the topic of conversation, among users of Ecollars and also by physical therapists who are using TENS or other electrical stim devices. 

What has this do to with being "honest?" 

So a shortened term for electrical stimulus? agreed

They don't use euphemisms at my local hospital they refer to it as what it is.

Exactly my point Isabel. In my book calling a spade a spade is being honest. Using  a term that is commonly used to avoid saying spade is less than honest especially when you are supposed to be giving helpful information to someone who obvioulsy isn't used to the slang associated with the item and therefore putting a gloss over what is actually meant.

How long have you had her? Was it from breed rescue or a general rescue? What is her background? As you've worked with rescue dogs before you'll already know that they shouldn't be treated as you would a dog you've had from a small puppy. I understand that Gwen Bailey has written a good book about rescue dogs which may help you, and I'm sure other people will know of other books too.
:)

Hi Jeangenie.  Thank you so much for you response.

I have had Sasha for nearly 3 weeks now and she was from a small rescue place where they mainly get GSDs but do not turn away other breeds.

I have limited information on her background, I just know that she was passed around within the family (from sibling to sibling, and on to the Mother of the family) all living in different homes, but I am uncertain as to why.  I have not yet left her on her own in the house and gone out, but she had seperation anxiety when I went to the toilet in the vets and left her with my son when she was due her second vaccination.  The longer she's here though she is able to manage me going to other rooms without following me etc.

She seems to have got worse the longer she goes between training classes (ie she's great the first few days after class).

I have a number for the actual trainer who collected her from the home (on behalf of the rescue) so I may call him tomorrow for more insight.  I will definately look up the Gwen Bailey book you mentioned, and I will keep you informed of how I am getting on.

Lottie - am I correct in thinking that you have taken on two rescue dogs in the last six weeks?  The first of them an unvaccinated puppy that you can only now take out?   How are you trying to exercise them - are you taking them tegether or separately?

Margot

Hi Loki's mum.  I've had my terrier for longer than 6 weeks now, he wasn't planned for me to get him as I had been waiting for a suitable GSD, but as things worked out I took him rather than see him given to someone who I knew wouldn't look after him.  He wasn't able to go out initially but after I had had him fully vacc-d and waited the 10 days after he's been out and about.  I take him to training also, but it's different classes than the ones I take the GSD to.  I walk the 2 dogs seperately if I am on my own (mostly) but as my son is home from boarding school at the moment, and my daughter is also off from her school on Easter hols they have been at times accompanying me with our terrier on a flexi-lead.

The idea of me walking them seperately was so they didn't egg one another on and pick up bad habits.