I would object strongly to putting a muzzle on my dog if she has no agression in her. As most people on this board know, she is a very young puppy at the moment. I particularly wanted a Golden Retriever because they are known for their gentle temperament. I sit and feed her with my hand in her food so that she is happy with people handling her when food is around, I take her biscuits etc. off her while she eats them and I will do all I can to make sure she does not become nasty. I would then strongly object if a law was made that said I had to muzzle her for no reason. I think it would be cruel to muzzle a dog unless it is absolutely necessary.

We have always been carefully letting our Rotts off the lead and have always put them straight back on leads if anyone with dogs or not come in sight, again it is because of the misconceptions of the breed rather than my distrust of our dogs. so many times we have loose dogs snapping at them when their owners are miles in the distance, it makes me really cross.........................
Lorraine

I know how you feel Lorraine - i have exactly the same problem with my GSDs and it drives me mad. Especially when the owner finally gets close enough to grab their dog and then laughs at how brave it was to challenge those big nasty dogs. Aaarrrrgggg!

Lisa

Hi Brainless, JulieAnn and Claire. I dont like long posts so probably was a bit short in more than one way wth my last one! Barney loves his walks and when there are dogs on leads I have no trouble (myself) at all. I am just a bit afraid of reacting badly if I meet one that isnt on a lead and it is big and seems threatening and as I said I do have a big mouth and I probably would shout in horror. Barney absolutely loves meeting other people and other dogs and although I dont let him get too close yet he does keep a bit of distance anyway at the moment - not through any negative thoughts emanating from me I hasten to add as my husband normally has him on the lead and he loves all dogs - especially large ones. As I have said before I am not afraid of large dogs I know but just ones off leads coming too close when I dont know what they are going to do. I havent been able to get Barney into ANY training near me as they are all full. But Terri from this site has given me a number to ring but because of something very upsetting happening to my old cat over the last couple of weeks I havent been able to ring him but I will do so shortly. My cat is dying I think at this moment in the vets so am very upset myself tonight. I have had her nearly 22 years and she is so dear to me. Anyway thanks for your posts I will let you know how Barney gets on at his training and perhaps once I have been around larger dogs I will be okay too LOL Many thanks Gina

Gina

So so sorry to read your posting about your cat. Is there bad news today? How are you feeling? I too have two cats who I just could not imagin not having round. My best friend in Argyle Scotland lost her cat of 19 years a few years ago - it was very upsetting and even now if you talk about her cat which I belive you should do she gets up set and we look at her photos.

I send you my best wishes Gina and hope everything is OK today. Just wish we could make things better hey?

God Bless

Julieann

Thanks Julieann. We brought her home last night (on the vet's advice of course) so that she can have her last few days at home with us. She isnt in any pain and is drinking so it seems to be just a matter of time. Once of us is with her nearly all the time and my daughter slept with her last night. Still hoping for a miracle though. Regards Gina x

That must be very hard for you Gina, especially after 22 years. I don't think anything will ever stop us from hoping for miracles at times like this :-(

Thanks Claire. Regards Gina

Gina,

Am thinking of you.

Julieann

I have been interested in reading the entire thread of this topic as I own a rescue dog who has (through no fault of his own) got a problem with other dogs. We have worked very hard with him on this matter, going to training classes on a regular basis and getting help from the trainers.

Then, last week a dog came racing up to us while we were on a walk (our dog was, as always, under control and on a lead) and unfortunately our dog took exception to this dog sticking it's face in his and bit it on the ear.

As you can imagine, we felt really bad about this, but the truth of the matter is that the owner of this dog did not have control, he didn't have a lead with him and he was on a mobile phone at the time. If we had had a chance to get his attention we would have asked him to call his dog away, but he wasn't paying any attention and his dog got bitten. As a result of this, I am having to consider whether we should muzzle him all the time when we are out as a lot of dog owners in my area are just as careless. We often have to ask people to call their dogs away only to get the reply "it's ok my dog is fine", this is not the point, my dog isn't. It makes matters worse that he is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier so if he was muzzled all the time we would get verbal abuse, and if we don't he's a liability.

What can we do?

I think for your own peace of mind and your dogs safety you really should have him muzzled. At least that way you'd be able to enjoy your walks without worrying about him getting upset with another dog.

Fiona
x x x

Welcome to the forum Torianna :-)

I think you have answered your own question there........

>>and if we don't he's a liability.

In this day and age, & with the DDA you can't afford to take chances,it could cost him his life.

OK, I get your drift, but it gets me so mad that so many other dog owners are so stupid - if you don't have control of your dog in a public area, what can you expect?

My dog is not dangerous, he just took exception to a 'rude' dog with an idiotic owner. We have owned him for 2 years with no bother until now - 2 weeks ago he wasn't a liability, so why should my circumstances change just because of a careless dog owner?

Plus, you cannot get any humane muzzle in this country that will fit a staffy comfortably. Any suggestions would be most welcome.

Maybe I should just please the whole world and have my best friend destroyed.....

Good grief !! Chill out ....... you're the one who said he was a liabilty!

No I didn't. I said that was what people think (or that's what I meant!)

Whatever ... the bottom line is you are snarling at the wrong people!

"Maybe I should just please the whole world and have my best friend destroyed....."

Hmmm, perhaps a bit too much drama there. Going from a question to muzzle or not: to euthanasia. All in one fell swoop. --not funny and rather drastic. If you can't handle the stress, perhaps you might try to rehome your dog to another area with less careless people or with someone who can gracefully handle the awkward situation.

We're not your opponents, so don't take it out on us, please.
toodles

Leigh, you sound positively American with your proper use of Charlie Brown/ Gen-X slang. Am I being contagious??? (modestly [$ humbly said, of course) ])

I thought I sounded frighteningly like my mother :D

Torianna, I appreciate your problem, I have an ESS who will do the same thing :-( I've found through working with a trainer that she is actually quite nervous, and this is her response to any situation she finds threatening. What we've started doing is using a MasterPlus collar and some carefully selected 'stooge' dogs to remind her that snapping and snarling is not an appropriate response to 'rude' dogs, and that coming to Mum and hiding behind me IS..... It's going to take a lot of work, but I can see a light at the end of the tunnel......

I've also found that the Halti head harness works with mine when she "Fear-snaps" at a fast approaching & subsequently rude dog. I can easily turn her head into my body & deal calmly with the situation.
toodles

It would never work, dogs are supposed to be on a lead out in the street but how many people ignore that?! I would rather see some kind of test or assessment of dog owners to make sure that they are knowledgable enough to own a dog! you have to have a lisense to drive a car or own a gun, both lethal weapons in the wrong hands, how is it that any idiot can buy a dog which can also be a lethal weapon in the wrong hands! might souns a bit extreme but I'd much rather face a test or something than have to muzzle my dogs all the time :(

What would never work, Julie?

Personally, I doubt there'll ever be a test for having a dog. Just too many variables & issues for testing to be truly fair and impartial.
toodles

Sorry, muzzling all dogs would never work, I wasn't implying haltis would never work! used to use one on my GSD, only thing that stopped him tanking off like a train when he was little! :D
I'm pretty sure too that there'll never be a test system put in place, the government wouldn't want to have to deal with that, muzzling would be simpler in their opinion.
Just got to add though that I live on a very busy main road and as I'm sat her typing I've just seen a young lady walking a young GSD up the road with no lead!! young lady too busy making sure her hair doesn't get wet in the rain!

It wouldnt bother me unduly if all dogs were muzzled when out in the street. Hudson has been jumped on by the same long legged Jack Russel type of dog on 3 seperate times. The owner never says a word ..just collects the nasty little thing and walks away.

Why does she have it off the lead when it jumps all over other dogs?

Baffles me ...and poor Hudson (who is always on a lead and usually has a halti on)

I didn't think you were talking about Halties or the other post...so it kind of confused me.
I really don't understand people who walk their dogs off leash in the city/town streets. You just never will know what will come along and distract your doggy's brain. If you have a leash on, you have a chance to react to sudden situations. Oh well. Can't save the world with good intentions :rolleyes:

Geesh, you guys must be in a permanent cloud over there. It's been sunny & warm since Sunday. Windy & cloudy on Sat. But Hot Hot HOt all last week!!!! Why aren't you all up there sharing in this wonderful weather?????

I realize it's off topic. I just feel really sad for you all up and over there :(
toodles

Don't feel sorry for me Sara, I'm siting in my lounge watching Holly standing in the garden. It's really windy and the wind is blowing her ears back and she's so happy. All her fur is being blown towards her tail and she loves it.

I love the weather in this country, wouldn't change it for anything.

Fiona
x x x

Ok --- Won't feel sorry for you, Fiona, just everyone else :D :D :D ;) ;)
Don't get me wrong. I love the misty rain [$ windy days too. It's just with all of this construction around me, I get either blowing dust or knee deep mud. :( Don't like either, but I'll take the dust (with my allergy meds of course ]) )

Well I am sat here listening to the rain lashing down and the wind blowing only to hear that the weather forcast is not promising anything better for the time being. The trouble with this country is that when it starts to rain, it doesn't know when to stop. I am trying to house train my poor 7wk old puppy and there we stand, in the garden with the rain belting down on us. Its a good job she is catching on quickly (perhaps that's why).

Under the "Control of Dogs on Roads Order 1993" - It is an offence for a dog to be on or near a road off the lead.

Leigh, We know that but try telling it to half the dimwits who live by me! :D

Let me make one point. Dogs are not rude! That is putting human values on a dog’s behaviour! Dogs do the things dogs do. Unfortunately, and this is the humans fault, dogs, not being socialised in the manner they would be in the wild pack, are not always familiar with dog ways! They are lacking in understanding of natural body language. The result of this is confrontation, not from rudeness but from a lack of understanding of its own genre.

Regards, John

In light of recent events, this subject has been discussed on other boards as well as this one. Here is how I see it.

The ONLY way to ensure your dog does not bite a person or another dog is to muzzle it. I have no problem with this nor do I have a problem with keeping dogs on leads. Dogs are dogs and no matter how well we think we know them they always surprise us. In our kennels we see it all the time, dogs under pressure, in a strange environment or not well will change in a flash. "He is as daft as a bottle of pop" they say, yes while mommy is here and he is safe, but when she has gone they revert to the only defense they know BITING!!
Some of the most popular breeds are top of our "dodgy" list, the way different breeds react is very interesting.

It doesn't matter how well you train or socialise your dogs, some of them by nature of their breeds are aggressive and nothing will change this. Shows, tests etc.. are licensed events and should be given "immunity" or something as they are a controled situation on private grounds or hired facilities.

So whilst I understand why people do not want to all dogs muzzled, quite frankly I would gladly do it if it meant a more "dog acceptant" society.
Dawn.

Muzzling all dogs would not make society accept dogs more. It will make them realise that they can restrict the lives of these creatures. Make them live out sad pathetic lives stuck on a lead and muzzled till the end of their days. Sorry but I dont agree. If society wants to restrict dogs then they will have to make provision for them like they do for every other aspect of our lives.
My dogs would not cope being permenantly kept on a lead and muzzled. I know of dogs who have ripped claws off in an attempt to get muzzles off their faces. My Boxer cant even where a head collar because he panics so much he goes blue.
I wouldnt condemn the life of a dog to that kind of existance.

Bit of a side track, Dawn, but I can't help wondering what on earth can happen in kennels to put a dog, that the owner would never recognise as a biter, under such pressure that it would. I don't think I could ever kennel my dogs again if I thought anything could occur to make them react like that. However judging by the affection that they greet the staff and owner of the one we use and indeed the way they are greeted I feel that is not something I need to worry about in their instance

Hi Isabel
Imagine living with your family for many years, never being away from them and then after 10 or more years, they decide to go on holiday, or an emergency occurs, Fine, you put your old dog in a confined space, expect him to accept strangers and be groomed, fed and exercised by them and there are upto 80 or so other dogs around you that think life there is great because they are used to it. If a dog is not happy in his surroundings, he WILL change his behavior the way he knows how. We will not board old dogs for a first time because we feel it not fair to them, and after 15yrs or so of working with dogs, I feel this to be true. 95% of dogs boarded do not have a problem with it. You cannot expect all dogs to accept strange circumstances, they are individuals as we are. We board many other dogs that are perfectly schooled dogs at home, but as soon as they come up the drive they get really excited, tow their owners down the kennels, and thrive on the very atmosphere of it. Dogs boarded from a young age generally have no problems at all. Anyone working in kennels will tell you there are dogs that do not cope and will change their behavior because of it, you only need watch any of the rescue programs to see that. If anyone tells you all dogs should be ok in kennels, they are lying or do not know what they are talking about.
Hope this clears up a few things for you, and as you said you have a well balanced dog that has no problem with boarding, if only everyone did the same!
Dawn.

I am still having trouble with this notion that a dog that the owners believe to be reliable can change so much when merely being groomed, walked etc. A couple of years ago we looked after an elderly terrier cross for someone from work who was called away to a family crisis never having left the dog with anyone before. He had never met us and he was obviously a bit sad and confused to find himself with strange people in a strange house with strange dogs for company but I never felt there was any danger that he would be anything other than the good mannered dog she assured me he was. Maybe I am being naive but you make it sound so common and yet when I think of the many dogs I know I can imagine so few of them causing any trouble just being asked to do the kind of things I image they would be asked to do in kennels. What kind of thing do these dogs object to?

Hi Isabel.
Confinement is the first thing they do not like, dogs who do not like being groomed etc.. are often the same at home, although some are quite the opposite with strangers. Houses are not kennels and should not be viewed the same, and you are right in saying confused and strange are the "usual" things you see. One example was a youngish Golden Retriever we boarded, and having boarded their previous dog for years did not forsee any problems. She came in and was all over us a delightful dog. It could only have been a couple of hours until we came to take her in the field for a run. She was snapping, snarling and charging to the front of the kennel, we could not even put our hands on the bolt to open the kennel door. We left her to settle down and not being a particularly busy time tried again later, no improvement. We telephoned her owners who were not on holiday, just doing a bit of decorating to tell them what was happening. Don't believe you she is adorable, I would trust her 100% with anyone, he said. He came to the kennels and as one of us approached the kennel, this man was horrified to see a raging dog throwing itself at us in an incredibly aggressive manner. He could not believe it, he was visibly very shocked, it took just a few seconds for that dog to recognise her owner and revert to the loving family pet she was that morning, and on getting her out of the kennel she was as loving with us as she was with him.
Most people never see an aggressive side to their dogs and can be reluctant to accept they are capable of it, but for many dogs it is the only way they can deal with an unfamiliar situation, of course if people had seen this side to their dogs in their home surroundings they wouldn't keep them, but most do not.
Hope this helps
Dawn.

As I have said a few time I have always had dogs around me all of my life and never had a problem ever neither have my parents.

About 6 months ago my freind went on holiday and left her Staffy BENNIE with her mother for the 2 weeks.

When walking my 2 dogs I called in every night and collected Bennie so he could get walked with my 2. One particular night I had the 3 dogs and my daughter and her freind came also. ( Not unususal either) whilst down in the field and after they had been running around mad for about 30 mins Bennie cam charging up the field and grabbed my daughters freind by the sweatshirt, he wouldn't let go and was dragging her along the ground, he was shaking her like a rabbit. I don't know where he got the strength. she was screaming.. I nearly died. I went charging after him and had to use leg intervention to stop him but believe me it was hard.

Once I got the child to her feet to check her injuries I was horrified not only was there little left of her sweatshirt he had bitten her quite badly. I burst into tears with shock as I could not believe this had happened. I have know this dog for 10 years and walked with it about 5 times a week for all this time also. He always showed dominance over my 2 and sometimes he had to be kept on the lead for is roughness but I never ever thought him capable of that.

My next reaction was worse and wrong but I became terrifed as he was growling still ...I rounded the girls and my 2 dogs and fled the field , I was too scared to try and catch him..

I ran straight home luckily only 5 mins and sent my husband for Bennie. The 3 of us were hysterical. He came along the street quite happily with my husband as if nothing had happened.

I had to take this poor girl home to her parents.. It was awful more so it was not my bloody dog..

Luckily they were OK she was taken to casualty and was cleaned up etc. but naturally she has not been back out for walks with us..

I have not been back out with Bennie neither as I am now terrifed of him.

When my freind returned and I told her the whole story she though I was exagirating and that he couldn't have been that bad but I saw it with my own eyes..he was attacking her.

I have always had strong big dogs until my 2 Westies ( but I guess they still fit this catagory ;-)
I have as I say never ever seen that happen but I now now it can.

I have to say it has put me off a bit some particular breeds.

Don't get me wrong and I am not a dummy and I know that dogs are all different like humans..etc but believe me when you experince these things first had in front of your own eyes and with a child involved something changes a bit.. I am more cautious with other dogs which bothers me sometimes but it is a result of the shock I experienced.

To be honest I think the fact it was my daughers freind rather than my daughter kept me from being hysterical in the field. I can still see it now shaking her about like a rag doll.

Luckily the girl parents were OK and didn't even call the police..I have to say I am not sure what my decision would have been had it been my daughter.

Pam

Sorry to hear that dreadful story Pam, hope the girl does not fear dogs because of it It does prove though that no matter how much we think we know them, they are in fact dogs, a pack animal with pack animal instincts.
Dawn.

It doesn't really Dawn :) I know the woman who owns the kennels I use quite well socially and we have often chatted about her work there. I have heard her speak of the odd incident like you describe but I have never got the impression these incidents were common and I have never hear her say the owners were suprised. Mostly she speaks with great affection for her charges and dogs in general. Also what is the difference between a home and a kennel if both are strange and manned by strange people to a dog. As I say perhaps I am naive but I still find it very hard to believe the average good natured dog would deal with stress in this way, depression and anorexia seem far more likely to me.

Hi Isabel.
OK, let me try again!
I love my job and the dogs that I care for, doing it properly is of paramount importance to me.
We board up to 80 dogs at any one time, did the kennel you use board a similar amount? less dogs more time etc..
A lot of boarding kennels are designed so that should there be a problem dog, the owners/staff do not have to in any way put themselves at risk. By this I mean, sliding pop holes. Doors which are designed to be operated from outside the kennel, so that managing any dog meant that you didn't have to touch it. This can be very beneficial but at our kennels we do not wish to work like this, we prefer a "hands on " approach so that each dogs can be made a big fuss of and be loved and handled by us as he would at home. I KNOW that kennels who have the pop hole system will often not acknowledge dogs posing a problem for them, because it hasn't, they have not had to deal with it !! Another thing is if a dog has a problem, medical, is injured or something if the dog shows aggression towards you, how do you deal with it, how would you get it to a vet, how do you administer medication? You speak of anorexia, depression, you cannot put human terms on to dogs. Dogs do not starve themselves and any signs of being subdued quickly disappear. We have had dogs that have not eaten very well in kennels but have ALWAYS been warned that this behavior is applicable to those dogs at home. I don't think I said these incidents were common, just that they happen, much to most owners dis-belief and we can never be certain of how dogs will react to strange surroundings or unfamiliar territory/circumstances. You say you might be naive, I don't think so, you just have not witnessed it for yourself.
Dawn.

I am not sure exactly how many dogs they board a fair few I think. I have often walked right through the kennel area to the field at the back where the owner runs an agility club I have never seen them handling the dogs in for boarding in any other way than you would expect. The lady also runs the local puppy and obedience classes and several of the girls who work with her regualarly come to the classes with rescue dogs that are lodged with them. I expect there is the odd dog that cannot be handled but the majority seem to be treated normally.
Anorexia and depression are not terms restricted to human beings. Anorexia merely refers to loss of appetite it is totally seperate from anerexia nervosa which I believe only occurs in humans. Similarly depression is a term applicable to dogs as I understand it. If you agree these instances of aggression are not common how can you use them in your aguement for muzzling all dogs?

Isabel
You are taking my comments out of context. I never implied anything of the kennel you used, I was simply stating dogs are dogs and they will behave as such. My argument for muzzling dogs, if you read it, stated that it was the only way anyone could be sure that if their dog was in a public place it could not bite man nor beast. Nowhere have I said it is some thing I want to see happen, I don't, I walk my dogs each day and enjoy running them loose, I do not want this to change. I used the kennels situation as an example of how much we think we know our dogs, but in certain circumstances they can behave in a way in which we least expect.
Dawn.

I appologise if I have taken you out of context :) I appreciate you were not implying anything about my particular kennels, what I was trying to say was in my small experience of kennelling untrustworthy dogs seem rare as they do out and about too, certainly in comparison with the majority of dogs, even those like mine that have been trained to the minimum required for an easy life :)

It just depends on the dog, most take to strange situations with no problems, some of the problems are not serious, some dogs don't like it and make their feelings known!
Cheers Isabel
Dawn.

Lowering everything to the lowest common denominator is not ever a good idea! I could never agree to the muzzling of my dog because some other damn fool cannot be bothered to train theirs! EVER! Or for that matter restricting them to the lead for the rest of their lives. That is victimisation of the responsible people! If that is the future of dogs then maybe we should exterminate the lot and put them out of the misery they would have to endure! I'm afraid that to me that is not the action of a careing owner! Sorry but I'm seething at the thought!

I hate to contradict anyone but with Golden Retrievers isn't it more that they are perceived to have good and gentle characters rather than fact that they actually do? They are often seen as the ultimate family dog but don't always appreciated the pulling around they get because of this assumption.

Kerioak

I have Goldens Kerioak but agree with what you say. We must be careful not to stereotype breeds as there are good and bad in all breeds. There is a marked difference in character between my two even - one will tolerate much more than the other. On the whole though as a breed I would say that they "usually" have a biddable gentle nature but there are some out there who have not been breed with temperement at the forefront and because of the "expected" character of these dogs it is always a shock to find a bad apple who reacts to the pulling and pushing by children whose parents would perhaps not have allowed that behaviour with another breed (such as a Doberman ;) again stereotyping :D )
Sara

Hi John.
Can't see what your problem is, millions of people never train their dogs and never have a problem with them, just because you train yours, what makes you so special, there are millions of people that do that too, and despite their efforts accidents do happen. I am simply saying you cannot be 100% sure of how your dog will react 100% of the time. If so wouldn't all obedience dogs do everything perfect every time once they had been trained? look at Mary Rays dog at crufts, beautifully trained, but some how got the wrong message and in an obedience test started walking backwards!! not the dogs or Mary's fault, just something that CAN happen.
I hope you were not imlying I am not a caring owner by wanting to keep my dogs safe, and I also don't see how a dog can lead miserable lives if they wear a muzzle when they are out, are the ones that wear muzzles now miserable, are the ones that wear halti's miserable, still the same if not worse restriction of a dogs mouth, and what about Greyhounds, racers always wear muzzles when in training and often when they are retired, are these dogs living a miserable existance too? (and I don't want to start a racing Greyhound argument!!)
Sorry John, don't take it personally, it's just how I see it.
Dawn.