The following link is what happens during a c-section on a bitch. Would you want your bitch to go through this?
http://www.wilpowerkennels.com/pups1.htm

take it you don't have kids then Bec?:D i think that animals cope with giving birth better than we do so although it looks horrendous so does natural childbirth in a woman! I do get what you're driving at though. Personally I think you should only breed if you're willing to cope with all eventualities

Hi Bec

I went though an unsuccessful labour and then had a c-section - would have picked a c-section any time after that labour!

Christine

bec trust me- if you had to go through labour for 9 kids, i think given the choice youd opt for a ceasar too :D
on a serious side if poppy had had a ceasar with her last litter i would of had 3 more pups, it was awful to lose them full term and big strapping things they where too, im asking for a ceasar for her next time, she couldnt deliver the 7 she had so all round i think its the better option, ive seen many bitches who've needed a ceasar and the day after it theyre like nothing had happened, -my vet agreed with me so i know she wont be going through what she went through last time,

Actually the last litter I had my vet asked me whether I should choose the pups or the bitch. If I'd wanted the pups to survive he would have gone for a caeser as this is far more detrimental to the bitch. As I wanted my bitch to survive we opted for manual extraction hence 3 dead pups but one live bitch.
And no I dont have children, have no intention of having children and would rather the world was free of them :D

tut bec!!!!!even you where a child once

Me too dizzy!!!!!!
also vaguely remember going to school with some ouh!!! happy days :d :d :)

i think most of us where at one time-well maybe most of us

My mum said I might have had the body of a child, but I was a very old soul. Never was that carefree and happy as a small person. I never could understand or fit in with others of my age. :( Still, though, I like babies & children. They do fascinate me at times :)
toodles

I was like that too eog! I always got on better with adults, spent a lot of my preteen years sitting reading, so much so that they let me stay in class at break times at school. Never fitted in with peer group. Was one of the lads through teen years!

Brainless that's me too- honestly you could have just decribed me to a 'T':D :D :D

Stacey x x x

Im not sure about that Dizzy reading comments like the above and knowing what some Mums (on the board) have gone through re: losing a beloved child,insensitive comments dont help or make any sense :( also I have had a section myself it was wonderful compared to a babaric birth with the first one.,each to their own beliefs thats what I think regarding birth for dogs and people.
Also some breeders would prefer to have a bad birth for their bitches because c.sections mean only two litters (well in theory anyway) and they can have up to six litters without ...awful isnt it :(

Luckily you mother didn't think the same eh? :-))

Just as well your mum didnt feel the same! :D :D
Regards Gina

Whoops great minds what Pamela - almost the same words LOL

Bec ..nothing shocking there at all :) I have had 5 children over the period of 18 years , two of them completely natural , two of them with the aid of pethedin and one with just gas and air. Episiotomy with the first one meant that I tore with the other four ..which in turn meant being stitched after the births.

If I had the choice of a C section I would have jumped at it :D

Melody

Melody
.... some people can handle the birthing process better than others. Every woman is different. I'll be doing quite well if I have one, perhaps two babies. Five???? you have my admiration dearie. Congratulations.
Oh [$ no way am I letting them do an Episiotomy on me. There's been enough research done now to demonstrate that there are no apparent benefits, but more problems over time from those. (I already have those types of problems that would be ascerbated by it) Hubby has strict orders to not let them cut!!!! Got that one issue out of the way early ]) But I'll make certain it's in writing too!!
toodles

Hi Bec, I find it surprising that the vet said he could save the mother or the pups but not both, I assume as he was happy to let nature take its course, that she was unlikley to be weak or ill. Whatever, I am so sorry you lost your babies, I know how heartbreaking it is. Funny how we all think along different lines - I wouldn't have wanted to leave the pups in, the bitch may have needed a C section anyway and had to go through it all , for no live puppies. With the C sections I have experienced in bitches, within 24 hours they are jumping about, looking after their babies well and eating normally and dont seem to notice any stitches or discomfort, and apart from giving them their painkillers and AB's they haven't needed any special treatment. The only problem I had once was I introduced a puppy too soon after her coming round and she rejected it for a couple of days, but all turned out fine in the end. I used to be really squeamish but not since I was lucky enough to spend a fortnight in my vets op. theatre as part of a college course, and can now watch more or less any op with interest rather than horror.

I would hate to have a c-section unless I really needed one.

My Daughter was born using gas and air and a tens machine I tore a little but said from the start I would rather that than a Episiotomy.

Im now 24 weeks pregnant and having a homebirth with this one as long as the pregnancy goes to plan.

Im lucky I have a high pain thresehold and last pregnancy I was 8cm dilated when I got to hospital and was not in much pain.

Karen

I've had 4 normal deliveries, 2 of which were induced - very painful and not to be recommended and an elective c-section with Isabelle.

If I was to have anymore, still under debate :), I'd have a c-section. My babies tend to be small, Issy was only 4lbs 12oz, and have breathing difficulties immediately following delivery.

I'm not sure we will have another baby because it doesn't seem right to plan something which will cost the NHS something in the region of £9000, by the time you've worked out the costs of the theatre team, the inevitable Special Care cot and all of the tests that would need doing.

Is it right to plan to have a litter from a bitch that you know will need a c-section? Is this putting your desire for a litter ahead of the needs of the bitch? Is science interfering in nature again?

Fiona
x x x

This isn't aimed at anyone specifically, Dizzy :), just a general comment.

£9000

Does the average labour cost anywhere near £9000???

Maybe I am being simplistic, but I can't help wondering how many people on huge NHS waiting lists could have their life threatening operations done with that money.

That's approx how much it cost for me to deliver Isabelle. I've not worked out how much for antenatal care - consultant and ultrasound appointment every 3 weeks plus the standard blood tests.

In theatre there was my obstetrician, a senior peadeatrican (sp?), 2 midwives, 2 theatre nurses, a theatre porter and an aneasthetist (sp?? again!).

Issy then spent 4 nights in special care having numerous xrays and tests whilst I occupied a private room for 5 nights.

If we had any more children, because of my history, it would be done exactly the same as for Issy.

I think a standard hospital delivery costs in the region of £250 assuming you stay in overnight, have an epidural and your baby doesn't need any extra support.

Fiona
x x x

Very few Leigh, I'm sorry to say. The cost of an operation, procedure, out-patient visit or whatever depends on a lot of things - the turnover and staffing levels in the ward or out-patients dept, the % theatre usage, delay between cases etc. All of those places have to be kept staffed whether they are actually being used or not. Then there are capital costs - keeping the building standing and clean, instruments, machines like ultrasounds etc. Its only after you've got all of that and more out of the way that you begin factoring in the (usually) smaller items like drugs, dressings, cost of sterilising instruments, how much the staff are paid while they are actually with you and so on.

foiana flowerpot!!!!if its not aimed at anyone in pArticuler then why add my name????i had 2 kids, the first one induced, i was in strong labour for nearly 24 hours, around 3 in the morning they realised the baby was well and truly stuck the wrong way around, they brought every student in to watch, put me in stirrups, they tried the suction cap, it had no effect ,they then tried forceps but still couldnt budge him--they then used forceps that where so very long and turned the baby around inside me--it was called a keilands rotation, ive never known pain like it- its a very rare type of birth, my son was born with 2 black eyes ,a bruise on his head from the suction and scratches all down his face from the forceps. he was just short of 10lb, -he was rushed to intensive care and kept there for a while-----so ive had a very difficult birth with a huge baby, i know which id rather of had if id been given the option
as for should i be breeding from my bitch if im expecting problems, well thats open to all veiws, if she was a mediocre bitch with perhaps an iffy temperament then no, i wouldnt dream of it, as it is shes a joy to have around, her pups have her same sunny temperament, shes not a breed that have hundreds and hundreds of dogs of quality ,therefore never needing the need to breed from one that may have a problem -in my opinion she has a lot to offer, if she needs a ceasar then so be it, ive had a difficult birth its not nice,,---i did however go on to have another one 3 years later, my first birth had been so horrific the staff at the hospital remembered it,-anyhw my daughter was born no problems at all, in the blink of an eye at nearly 9lbs---should i not of been bred from again????

The reason I put your name was because you'd mentioned that one of your bitches would have to have a c-section next time. I'd already been wondering about the ethics of intentionally breeding from a bitch that would need surgery when I read your post and I didn't want you to think my comment was aimed at you.

I was trying to be nice, sorry if I upset you.

Fiona
x x x

Dizzy Sharon was born the same way I will never never forget it , that was 32 yrs ago I would have thought in this day and age it would have been made easier . wishful thinking:) Still they were all worth it.
I dont think this is the place for this discussion but seeing as you all had a post thought I may as well lol Mari

Hi Westie, I was quite surprised by that too, and would be interested to hear why the vet felt it was mother or puppies. I do know of one litter not that long ago where the bitch and all the puppies were lost. But I don't know the exact circumstances of that: not surprisingly the breeders were far too upset to talk about it much.

Bec
Don't know what your problem is with this, unless the surgery was an elective one without giving the bitch a chance to whelp naturally.

Seemed all straight forward to me.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Yes, I agree with Jo. A very straightforward operation resulting in the birth of 9 healthy pups. I'm sure everyone was delighted.

On the human side, as a health visitor we do our first post-natal visit on the 11th day, by which time most women are equally active, whichever way they've been delivered. Yes the ideal is a vaginal delivery with no stitches, but we don't live in an ideal world. The good news is that maternal and infant mortality rates are lower than ever before - and surely that's the main aim. If modern veterinary practice is resulting in similarly good outcomes for animals, then hooray! :) :) :)
Cathy.

Hi Cathy, I agree about infant mortality rates, but the other side of the coin is that we are doing more and more sections on medico-legal grounds and maybe because of simple caution.

I also wonder if something similar is happening with vets. Touch wood, my lot pop them out like shelling peas. Admittedly I have a breed that usually whelps easily, but I've got the impression that the number of CS delivery of puppies I hear about seems to be creeping up, especially when I talk to doggie friends in the US and south of England. It would be interesting to know if there is a big difference the percentage of CS's different vet practices perform. And if there is, do the results in terms of live puppies and lost mothers differs much.

well said fortis, i cant see the point of a long and uneventful labour when it could be over and done with much sooner without losing the pup or the dam, ive not heard of many bitches not coming through a ceasar ,other than the ones already with complications!!!
of couse we could stop breeding all together JUST INCASE :rolleyes:

Yep I agree Jo, the c-section looked normal to me too.

I have seen quite a few c-sections as I worked for a vet for a couple of years many moons ago. Us nurses used to love assisting and bringing the pups round, we were always amazed how quickly the bitch recovered. Although I'm sure a c-section is not always ideal I certainly was in awe at every single one I attended. :-)

I agree with WL and the rest . I have not bred before personally ,but if there was a risk and puppies were weak I thought a c - section would be opted for imediately she may have had to do both other wise.

Now I am not an expert as I said in breeding dogs but generally C-sections are for 2 reasons..

Distress of mother too much for her or baby struggling.. this is the case with humans

Pam

Thank you for the congratulations Eog *dearie* ....research is all well and good but in 1975 when I had Lucy the research hadn't been done.

As to some people can handle the birthing process better than others ....what was that supposed to mean? Each birth is different dearie , all 5 of mine were different from each other. I had 5 fairly difficult labours and deliveries so dont believe it when people tell you that it gets easier with subsequent births ..it isn't necessarily so.

Doctors nowadays will only cut when vital ..nothing in labour or delivery should be taken as an absolute. Its all very nice to go into labour saying 'I dont want this ...I don't want that' but at the end of the day ...THEY are the doctors and you are not. Thye can advise from a point of experience rather than statistics

I have had no problems following the episiotomy though I know that some women have ..though there have been a lot of women with major problems after being allowed to tear as well.

:)

This is one subject where I feel I possibly have *slightly* more practical experience than you

Melody, we all go into labour with exact ideas of how we want it to go, then of course the real pain hits and we just want them out and we want them out NOW!:D And I quite agree that it doesn't get easier with subsequent births, I've only had 2 and although the labours lasted 6 hours each time thats the only thing that made them similar! Don't think I want to join you in the 5 region though, I got enough trouble with 2! :D :D

Too true Julie :D

I only have 5 because of a remarriage though ..would have stuck to my original 3 had I remained with ex hubby :)

People seem to think I am maternal or something!!!

:)

Hi Melody,
I think you completely misunderstood my tone. Not trying to be superior or condescending at all. I know that you've had children, which obviously, makes you better experienced than me. But it still depends on the individual, rather than across the board for femalehood on managing pregnancy & childbirth. I know women who think that childbirth, while painful & messy, as no big deal and go on rather easily with their lives. They actually love being pregnant and having said children. Great & wonderful. I'm a actually quite envious of them.

Unfortunately, women in my family have not had such great luck with having babies. They've had infertility difficulties, stillbirths, tubal pregnancies, ovarian cysts, detached uteruses, incontinence, difficulties with infants too large for their pelvis, and other troubles. 3-4 generations ago, the size of the families went from 5-8 kids on average & declined drastically and suddenly. I wanted to know why, other than just possible birth control & I've found records to show that my family history basically stinks!!! Women and infants died more often in the last 100 years than 200 years prior!! Still, I"m glad for modern medicine, believe me. It gives me hope that perhaps one day I can be a mommy. My dr. is dedicated to trying to help us out in that aspect.

I've been diagnosed with something long & complex that basically means I have extremely thin & rigid skin in that region. If they were to cut. I would not heal very well, if at all!!!! That comes right from my specialist dr. who has the education to tell me this. I've also researched to see if this was true...well, it is. Sure, there's likely problems if tearing occurs, but less probable than the cutting part.

As for Drs only cutting what needs to be...well, the military tends to be a little behind current trends. They still prefer perform medicine occasionally on the basis of old mythology at times. I like to be armed with info before some idiot Colonel decides he knows what's best for me just because he's an officer and I"m ONLY a military spouse. I want this made absolutely clear, instead of while I"m incapacitated, out of my mind, and my hubby has to decided permission for something he really has no clue about :D :D

Yesterday, I also got diagnosed with some other personal problems in the same region, so I'm not feeling particularly wonderful at the moment. All I can do for support is email my husband and get the occasional sympathetic response. So please, give me the benefit of the doubt and just be nice. I'm not at all at the top of my game and not in any shape to really be talking about this dispassionately or sardonically.
toodles

You've got my email adress Sara, please feel free to use it :)

Fiona

fiona.bray@surfanytime.co.uk

Hi Sara, my retired idiot Colonel TA / RAMC(V) says he wouldn't let most regular armed forces medics anywhere near him :-) Interesting that you say "Women and infants died more often in the last 100 years than 200 years prior. Of course it isn't true in terms of overall statistics, but its sort of along the lines of what I'm wondering about above in terms of dogs above.

Sorry you're not keeping so well :-( Hope things improve soon.

Thanks Fiona for the offer -- you're a sweetie :D :D

Sharon...yeah, the statistics in my family are really odd. That's why I've become obsessed with researching it. My dad's side were extremely long lived in the 18th cent. There are a couple of men AND women who lived to be over 100 years old!!!! Well documented in primary sources --believe me, I've checked. It's the 19th & 20th cent. that really did us in. Go figure. Modern ages, until rather recently, were just not healthy for us :p
toodles

Interesting Sara. I've never done any formal research into my family - always said that if I want g-g-g-g- aunt Moriah (yes it is a family name, one that I'm glad I escaped!), then I'll go and dig her up - literally!

I know quite a bit about my family, going way back, by word of mouth, because they didn't move around much, especially on my mother's side. They did pretty well - no one got to 100 that I know of, but an amazing number who got to their late 80's and 90's. I suspect that this generation will not do as well for one simple reason - relative prosperity.

Hi Eo I do sympathies with you having probs in that dept. My own daughter had tube & ovary removed from left side when she was only 21 & diagnosed with endometryiosis of the highest grade & was told at 27 the likelyhood of her having children by natural means was virtually nil. She eventually went on to have IVA (VERY expensive) & conceived first time & little Zoe had her 3rd birthday last month. She was delivered by C section & wasn`t given an option & had a fair few probs afterwards. She has tried IVA again, at the end of last year but it failed & she is now nearly 33yr. so this could be her only child. We are all just so glad she has had a child by whatever means.
Never ever give up hope Eo.
Christine2

Thanks Christine
I'm glad to hear that your daughter is ok. I'd be very happy with a little girl ;) My mother was an only child and did just fine. I"m technically an only child & I liked it too. :D

I gave up on drs in disgust about 5 years ago and never went back until about 6 months ago. They've been running tests on me since. But between the issues of massive overtime due to Sept 11, my leaving for finaly schooling, breaking my ankle in Jan, & him being gone since early March, we really don't know what the chances are at the moment. Everything is up in the air for a while and that's what I just can't stand!!!!

I just did a test yesterday to check some stuff out and if it comes back negative in two weeks, it will give us the green light to attempt pregnancy. Otherwise, more tests -- UGH!!! They're vampires!!! :P

It's ok, though. Thanks for all of the sympathetic thoughts. It's appreciated and I"ll get through this too. Just a "short" time until he gets home. That will be the best medicine for me. :)
Toodles

Hi Eo,you can certainly have a lot of fun "trying" (LOL) thats for sure!!
Christine2

As you have your email address hidden I am unable to address your post as I would like to .

I would simply point out that at NO point have I said or implied that I have had an easy time or an easier time than others. As to your family problems ...I have not been into the difficulties faced by my family members as it was (and still isn't) relevant.

FYI , my original post:

Bec ..nothing shocking there at all I have had 5 children over the period of 18 years , two of them completely natural , two of them with the aid of pethedin and one with just gas and air. Episiotomy with the first one meant that I tore with the other four ..which in turn meant being stitched after the births.

Part of your original reply:
Melody
.... some people can handle the birthing process better than others. Every woman is different. I'll be doing quite well if I have one, perhaps two babies.

I cannot for the life of me see what your post has to do with mine and yet it was addressed to me. To call someone 'dearie' is , in itself , condescending and superior. I would accept being called 'dearie' by an little old lady but not someone younger than myself. :)

Please do not tell me to be nice ..I haven't been otherwise I simply gave as good as I got

Melody - who has a tooth abcess , PMT , Fibroids , a mother who died of ovarian cancer and also has a husband who works away from home! Oh yes ..and as my email addy isnt hidden , possibly we can take this email now?

Melodysk,
Perhaps a c-section isn't shocking or surprising to you. Bec was nice enough to put this on so others could benefit and think about this perhaps happening to their own beloved dog.

You were one of those who brought human pregnancy into this topic. It felt as if those of us who did not share your opinion had something wrong with us.

I was using "dearie" as a polite way of trying to be friendly. That's all. Age has nothing to do with it. I've been using "dearie" since I was a kid. It's just being friendly where I come from.

No. I won't get into email debates trading who said what or whatever. Tempest in a teacup. That's why I do not list my email address as available. I have better things to worry about and probably you do too. Since we don't seem to be able to converse on the same wave length, it is best to end this.

I won't go into competing with who has it worst for suffering life's ailments and tragedies. We all have problems. But still occasionally we all could use a little sympathy and gentleness. Forget I said anything.

toodles
imho: husband working away from home is one thing --- living for months in a war zone is quite different

Phew back to talking about the topic and not kids! My aim was just as has been said. To make those who want a one off or think that every bitch should have a litter think a little harder about their decision. We have had sad cases reported on this very board of bitches that have died either during or after having a caeser. Apart from putting a bitch through this you then have the costs associated with it. If its put off one person who wanted a litter just because then I think I've done a good job.

Thanks Bec. The information is appreciated :)

Bec ...Ive not had a bitch that needed a c section but I have read on the forum that it can cost loadsa money :( It is enough to make me think seriously about breeding in the future ..at least not until I have enough cash in the bank to fall back on :)

Melody

Bec,

I think alot of the problem is that the majority of women have had a c-section or know someone who'd had one and so don't see any problem with their bitch having one.

Having been through the procedure myself I wouldn't be as concerned as I would have been if I didn't have Issy. I wouldn't deliberatly plan on my bitch having a c-section though. that just doesn't seem right. In this situation it really is a case that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Fiona
x x x

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, Eloise is squealing and I'm trying to switch off my brain to the sound whilst trying to remember what I wanted to type :)

Dear all - not aimed at anyone - just my opinion fwiw

The problems with c-sections is that people are becoming to expect to have a choice in the matter when normal childbirth is the norm, or should be. A c-section should only be entertained when there is no other alternative. It is afterall invasive major surgery with significant risk associated with it. As humans we can make the educated decision as to whether we should put ourselves through the procedure - if you know beforehand that their is a problem that is. For most humans - we don't know it's necessary until it's to late - ie you are pregant and baby has to come out. But for future pregnancies you do have an idea it might be involved or as in my case know you have no option. Another angle is the medical profession minimising the risk of law suits. The result is that c-sections have rocketed.

With bitches it is different to a degree. Mostly you expect a normal delivery and in the vast majority of cases all does go well. But there are cases when an elergency section is called for. Nothing you can do about that at the time but you can for the future. I mean here those cases where the bitch has had difficulties before that give serious cause for concern. In those cases - imvho - I think it is wrong to mate the bitch and put her through the procedure.

I have had two elective c-sections because my pelvis is too small. It was only discovered early, well at 37 weeks, because my first baby was a footling breech with an oblique lie. They x-rayed us and measured me and found the gap in my pelvis was too small for a normal delivery to get through let alone a normal breech and as a footling breech it was even more dangerous. It would have been a severe risk for me to have a natural labour. In the olden days - one of us would have died. Other than that we were both in fine fettle and receovered really well. With my second I knew it would have to be a ceaser and they warned me after not to have any more or certainly no more than one more because of the risk. We have just the two. But I was making the decision that affected me. I would have not expected my husband to make that decision for me - unless there had been an emergency. If he decided I was to have another baby - it would have been curtains for him - bless he's lovely, and it's the same for our dogs. They rely on us to make sound decisions for them - after all - you wouldn't put your kids through uneccesary risk would you?

JMHO

Pam n the boys