John

Sorry to but in

but its so nice to see you back

Take care
alix

Thank you Alix.

Best wishes, John

Jeangenie wrote: there's no such word as 'stimmed' so I won't use it

LC:  Sure there is.  If you visit any of the email lists about Ecollars you'll see it used all the time.  Language isn't bound by what's in the dictionary.  The dictionary is constantly being updated by the use of new language.  But feel free to say "shocked" if it makes you feel better. 

Jeangenie wrote: I'd be very disturbed about someone continually shocking

LC:  So would I and that's not what I do.  I'd suggest that you read my post on training the recall.  The dog is NOT "continually" stimmed.  It happens for about 1/2-1 seconds at a time and then stops.  And this is at the "giggle level." 

Jeangenie wrote: And clearly his owner was an ineffectual trainer who couldn't 'think dog', so had no chance of success. 

LC:  That dog learned the recall in about 20 minutes, had it proofed in about ten and was working off leash in another ten.  This is a dog that had been worked on "all positive methods" by persons skilled (so they said) in its use for about a year.  Their work had no effect.  I had the dog recalling in 40 minutes.  And that involved calling him away from goats, dogs, ducks, chickens and cats, all animals that he wanted to chase before we started the work.  He was the same happy-go-lucky goofball he was before the training but now he recalled on command. 

LC:  And as to the "reminder" about not quoting the entire post.  I only quote the part that I'm responding to.  But thanks anyway. 

First you said that you'd been shocking the dog since you started working him. Now you're denying that's what you do. That seems a little muddled to me.

I'm STILL wondering how a dog being trained as a Search and Rescue dog could have received a year's training and STILL have no recall AT All? (Mr Castle's words, not mine!) Are trainers of Search and Rescue dogs in the States REALLY that bad?

Apparently so, John. :(

..has he gone?   Without answering any more questions? :)

M

You wouldn't be the slightest bit muddled if you'd read my article on training the recall that appears in this thread. 

I had been stimming the dog WHEN APPROPRIATE for the training we were doing (the recall) since I'd been working him.  That stim lasts for about 1/2-1 seconds at a time and is several moments apart.  Many people, probably you included, think that the dog will be screaming in pain, showing fear, or some other reaction every time he's being stimmed.  Such is not the case. 

Hi sprout, another thing you have learned here is to make sure any trainer you choose has a good emotional and intellectual level, as you can see people who have dogs function at very different levels. Only Lou and I have any knowledge or experience whatsoever of remote collars, so you can make your own mind up around that.

The links I passed are important educationally. I consider them important as they are a window of opportunity to see the results of going the wrong way and refusing to try something new. They reflect what may happen to your dog if you do not take quick action now, she is at a stage where she is positively reinforcing ignoring behaviours = disobedience = out of control. Each reinforcement makes repetition more probable. It has to be reversed.

You might have also noticed one anomaly, the number of remote static's sold in the UK over this past two years when only 3 years ago few people had even heard of them, the % increases per annum is rising phenomenally. In the small town where the lady lives and whose letter extract I posted never heard of them until spring last, that's a 500% increase, taking into account all those people got them as the direct result of seeing dogs which one was used as a training aid speaks (a) as a reflection of e-collars (b) as a reflection of the result of other training methods available (choice is not advocated by some, force is).

Now I am sure your wondering what static stimulation is and levels etc, also Lou and I have been told we are both Dennis Carthy, I met him once and read much of his stuff. Dennis Carthy gives a very clear description of what static stimulation is and also blows the myth of ignorance put forwards by those who imply it's the 'level' and 'electric shock' which is what makes a collar work. It is not, it is the accumulation of sensation until it reaches a point where you get fed up of the sensation, such as discomfort when sitting down and then you move, its called a negative reinforcer, I am pasting it below, I hope admin does not mind but it is original and has no parallel I have found and as accurate information on e-collars is getting easier to come by in UK I think its appropriate as educational material for the UK pet owning population is needed here.

Reproduction granted for educational non-profit purposes only.
deniscarthy©2005

These charts only apply to post 1998 e-training category collars. Limited use collars do not have the capability. (see Ch 7. )

Chart 1.

1.
Prey drive
behaviour
activity degree. 1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9__10

2.
Rank drive
behaviour
activity degree. 1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9__10

3.
Equivalent
sensation threshold
producing degrees of
immunity. ______1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9_10

4.
Stim degree
needed to maintain
consistent level
of sensation.

10-15_10-15_10-15_10-15_10-15_10-15_10-15_10-15_10-15_10-15

5.
Actual collar level
used to maintain
consistent equivil-
-ent degree of
sensation.
10-15_15-20_20-25_25-30_30-35_35-40_40-45_45-50_50-55_55-60

Reproduction prohibited. Denis Carthy © 2004
e_info@postmaster.co.uk

Chart 2 shows how the degree of discomfort accumulates starting from a mild discomfort. The break in behaviour is the result of the combination of the intensity level accumulating as the seconds pass by.

This combination maintains the dog's mental qualities and faculties making learning easy and stress free beyond the stress of training, inherent in all training. Each dog, human or other animal have different thresholds of sensation.

Chart 2.

Actual collar
intensity level
used to maintain
consistent
degree of collar intensity level
sensation. 15 __ 15 ____15___ 15____15____15____15____ 15 ___ 15 __ 15 ___ 15 __ 15

2.
Duration in
seconds of seconds
of stimulation. 1 ____ 2 ____ 3 ____4 ____ 5 ____ 6 ____ 7 ____ 8 ____ 9 ____10 ____11 ___12

3.
Accumulative
degrees of sensation
experienced
by any mammal as
each second passes.

Degrees of
sensation.
1 ____ 2 ____ 3 ____4 ____ 5 ____ 6 ____ 7 ____ 8 ____ 9 ____10 ___ 11 ____12

In operant theory this is a negative reinforcement leading into positive reinforcement, however, operant theory excludes canine psychology which is in its drives.

Part 2.

Static Stimulation in Perspective.

Although this paper is dedicated to remote electronic training collars I feel it is appropriate to clarify what static stimulation is and place it in its wider context and perspective of uses. It is erroneous to think of it as specific to e-training collars and thoughts of electricity being involved should be put aside because of the historical and normal connotations to electrical sensation.

In the case of any external devices deliberately designed to cause a sensation a specific number of electrical waves pass between the contact points bouncing off the surface of the skin, say for instance 1000 waves per second. It is the number of bounces on the skin surface per sec which is usually known as 'the intensity'. If the speed of the waves bouncing along the skin surface was slowed down to 500 bounces per sec the sensation would decrease, speed up to 2000 waves and the sensation would increase in 'intensity level'.

If 1000 bounces per sec reached an accumulated point of discomfort whereby it distracted someone from 'doing' something after 6 sec and the discomfort ceased at the point the behaviour changed then the cessation of the behavioural action would reinforce or reward the correct behaviour action and strengthen it.

As shown in the graphs the working functionality of a modern e - training collar is based on the accumulation of a static stimulus sensation which is not dependant on one element alone making up the level of sensation ( i.e. intensity ) needed for whatever training purposes you are aiming at, it is based on two elements.

If you start to scratch your arm at a level which is uncomfortable but not an overwhelming intensity and continue at that level you will soon find it becomes uncomfortable to a point that you discontinue the behaviour = discomfort made up of (1) intensity level ( 2 ) length of time = change in behaviour, i.e stopped the action of scratching.

In training this is shaping desired behaviour not correcting undesired behaviour. This gives the dog and trainer numerically many more reinforcing reward episodes/opportunities than correction only techniques and makes communication and learning stress free, very fast and is applicable, with a good collar, at any distance, dogs speed or terrain. The play activity between handler and dog is increased many fold and training/learning time drastically reduced compared to old methods.

Even with an intellect a billion, billion universes beyond that of a dog humans learn and benefit by sensation very early on. We learn 'not' to hold our hands to close the fire for to long 'intensity + duration', we learn 'not' to wait 'to long' after the hunger pain sensation starts and eat for pleasant relief, discomfort + time span, dogs learn to avoid the unpleasant sensation of direct sun and keep to the shade after a short exposure to direct sun, 'intensity' + 'duration,' positively reinforcing low degrees of activity. Most dogs are more active on cold days, as the increase in activity starts then the discomfort of feeling cold decreases, again discomfort + time span. All these are negative reinforcement actions and are positively reinforced by strengthening behaviour which is rewarding.

Static stimulation has been in use and development for a vast variety of purposes for many years, at least since the 1950's, long before e-collars became training collar category collars in 1998.

The main reasons e-collars remained behind other developed uses of variable level static stimulation instruments was its use on a moving object, very often under adverse environmental conditions, at long range and with the ability to be perpetually adjusted to the sensory widening and narrowing which occurs with drive activity levels. If analogue technology was still in existence e-collars would have remained as limited use collars.

Acupuncture pens are a product which give a sensation as a by-product of their design purpose but some children's toys are deliberately designed to give a sensation of entertainment value, static bands are available which can be placed around wounds and aid healing, variable intensity static stimulation arm bands are available to displace concentration for people suffering some kind of pain in another part of the body.

Static stimulation devices designed to eliminate parasites and the conditions caused by them in humans and animals, micro current electrical stimulators for sore muscles, CES for relaxation, anxiety, meditation, and other benefits, massage devices.

On Channel 4 London region w/e July 7th 2004 an hour long late night program was dedicated to variable level static stimulation erotic M/F sex toys with optional combined vibration. The static sensation is exactly the same as e-collars, needless to say, the body areas had different biological purposes and responded to the sensation appropriately.
.
The fact that static stimulation is a sensation and the actual idea that in such a technologically advanced society we have not technologically progressed beyond being able to use electrical sensation beyond an elementary electric shock is absurd.

Such claims from groups or individuals are untrue and should either be dismissed or put in the context of such groups who opposed Darwin because "We came from Adam and Eve". When the first photographs were produced similar groups wanted photography banned because "Only God can make man in his own image".

In the 40,000 years of the existence of the species dog there has always been one persistent problem, 'distance control and training'. More dogs have suffered abuse due to frustration or revolving door rescues because of this than any other single reason. Globally the e-training collar is giving dogs more freedom and stress free relationships in this past few years than at any time in the history of the species and they are one of the easiest to use training aids of every kind.

The modern static stimulation e-training collar has taken the dog out of the dark ages of needing to be on/off the lead because the degree of control needed makes learning slow and confusing for the dog, boreing and stressfull for the owner and degrading the relationship, they have given both the freedom within safety which is a requirement of the species if it is to live a quality life with stress free owners in a lifelong relationship which comes about by owning a well behaved/trained dog.

In operant terms ( these days we have to use them ): negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, positive punisher, negative punisher.

Reproduction prohibited. Denis Carthy © 2004

For reproduction requests please email: e_info@postmaster.co.uk

Below, just a couple of the hundreds of other every day uses, e-collars are nothing more than one of them, type electrical stimulation or variations into Google for more.
Wound healing, dogs.
www.isrvma.org/article/57_1_7.htm
Neuromuscular
www.nessltd.com/
muscle.ucsd.edu/musintro/es.shtml

Lindsay wrote: The point is that it's totally inhumane to expect any dog owner, any member of the public, to use this on their dog (probably buying a cheap collar off Ebay with little or no instruction) and maybe first time owners with a new dog or puppy. 

LC:  You may be right Lindsay.  But the problem is that Ecollars aren't banned an in your country (or most of the world for that matter) and there's not much hope of it happening in the near future.  The BEST thing then is EDUCATION.  Let every pet owner know that this tool, just like any other needs instruction in its use.  There is not a single tool available for dog training that someone who knows nothing about the process can pick up and use without instruction. 

LC:  Education is the primary reason that my website exists.  To teach people how to use an Ecollar.  Hundreds of people (I've got their emails) have gone to the site, read the articles and gone out and trained their dog so that they're happy with the results. 

Lindsay wrote: Anyone who says otherwise is advocating cruelty IMO.

LC:  Cruelty isn't inherent in the tool.  It's ONLY in how it's used.  If people are educated then the chance for cruelty to occur is much lower.  And let's not pretend that cruelty is limited to the Ecollar.  ANY tool can be abused.  ANY tool can be misused.  No tool is idiot proof to the right idiot. 

Lindsay wrote: It doesn't matter how gentle the lower levels may be - it will get turned up when owner gets frustrated. That's what concerns me mainly.

LC:  I'm glad that's you main concern.  Since Ecollar training happens so much faster than with other tools there's less chance for frustration.  As for those who will abuse their dogs with them, no one needs to spend hundreds of dollars to buy an Ecollar just so they can abuse their dog.  They can use at stick, just about any collar, or even their boot.  In fact in one of the most horrendous examples of abuse of a dog that's occurred in the UK, the Essex incident, the dog was kicked to death.  An Ecollar was not involved. 

LC : Just because another country does something is not an indication that everyone else should.

Margot:   Your words.   Over here, the vast majority of trainers would never ever contemplate using such methods as those you advocate.   Of course, neither do we allow our children to run around with firearms.   Another country.

You quoted selectively from your webpage - but you failed to quote this piece :-
LC << You may find that your dog vocalizes and rears up when he gets a stimulation. There are two reasons that a dog will vocalize with an Ecollar stimulation. One is that he's in pain. Since I'm using the continuous mode, if this is the reason that a dog is vocalizing, he'll continue to vocalize as long as I hold down the button. If this is occurring YOU'RE TOO HIGH.>> 

Margot:  Hmm - so it can cause pain??

LC <<Be aware that some dogs are just plain vocal and will make noise, "just because." These dogs will make noise before the Ecollar is put on, while it's on and after it's taken off. Their noise has nothing to do with the stimulation since it's not coupled with it. But if the dog starts vocalizing ONLY when the button is pressed, you may be too high. Keep a close eye on the dog and if this is happening, back off a bit. You can always go back up. But also be aware that if you're using the continuous mode he's vocalize continuously as long as the button is held down as described above. >>

Margot:  So how is this any different to a dog "objecting" to a halti??
Source: http://siriusdog.com/articles/ecollar-levels-stimulation.htm 

I am still none the wiser as to how your method is any better than those used over here.   I have also seen film coverage of our queen, out on a shoot, successfully picking up, with her dogs, using an Acme and hand signals.  Would she have better results by "stimming" them??   I doubt it.   Have you, by any chance seen Mary Ray with her dogs?   

You persist in using the word "stim".   Well, I have searched American and English dictionaries and can find no such word. The word stimulate * verb 1 apply or act as a stimulus to. 2 animate or excite The word stimulate has the meaning to encourage (something) to grow, develop, or become active .  

We prefer to do this by developing the bond between ourselves and our dogs with interaction, not by electrical impulse.

I will just add one further quote, which comes from Memorandum submitted by Jennifer Dobson to the Parliamentary Committeee of the House of Commons on the USE OF ELECTRONIC TRAINING COLLARS FOR DOGS

E-collars are not appropriate or necessary for most dogs, or for routine ... For a few, e-collars, as part of an overall behaviour modification program, ...

Source:   http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmenvfru/52/52we105.htm

And now I'm going to go out with my dogs - and not an e-collar in sight!!

Margot

Sorry - can you answer my comments?   Which I have culled direct from your website, Mr Castle?   I'm afraid that the only conclusion I can draw is that you have no original answers to give.

As for Davedee Dozy Beaky Mitch & Titch - are you on commission?

M

And Dennis the Menace crawls out from under his stone!!! well, well, well!