LC wrote: And why are you now being so evasive? 

J: I'm taking lessons in evasion from a master! 

John wrote: I'm taking lessons in evasion from a master! 

LC:  I don't know who your master is but I'd say that you're very good at it.  I'm sure that will be useful some place in your life but here it's wasting our time.  Do you have anything intelligent to contribute on the topic of this thread, training collars?  if so, please post it. 

Do I take it then Mr Castle that you do not approve of evasion?

I would rather be considered Rude than Cruel.

For your information, I own two labradors (1 age 8, 1 aged 15 months) and four aussies (1 age 7, 1 age 5, two age 28 months).    I also have arthritis in one shoulder.   By using a derivitive of the halti (gentle leader) I am able to contain all six exited dogs getting out of a vehicle without stress or strain upon myself or my dogs.

They settle, walk to heel, have good recall without extremes.   

Margot

Now come on Lou! first of all, this thread is not about you or me - it's about, or was about, training collars (not just e collars). By constantly picking at everything, you are disrupting the thread. I am giving you very brief answers in an attempt to not disrupt this too much but still you persist.

You said: << you're already waffling on  the "no aversives" comment, just as i expected. Before there was a denial that you ever used any, now you're saying they'd be hard to find.Next you'll admit the truth, you did use aversives.LOL.>>"

Waffling? Charmed, I'm sure.

Short memory maybe on your side, but, i repeat yet again,  we have already discussed exactly this on Dogchat some time ago. No, I haven't used any aversives, and I haven't changed my views. Yes, they would be hard to find because I didnt' use any. I'm also not prepared to go over and over this, pedantically :rolleyes: Now please have the decency to accept my comments and not go on and on picking at my answers so that i have to come back and reply yet again. Think what you like. If anyone wants to PM me about this (not DD or L please!) I'm fine with that.

Lindsay

I have a book written by a "Respected" American gundog trainer. In it he says his Labrador is "Hard Driving" so when taking part in working tests, because Electric collars are not allowed in a test, he allows the dog out of the car and as it jumps out he gives it what he euphemistically calls "A nick" just to remind it!

If his training was so perfect why would that be necessary? I never need to resort to such tactics when working my dogs!

That's because you know how to train a gundog properly John ;) It's something called "skill".
Anyone who has to give a trained gundog a so called "reminder" when getting out the care - words fail me to be honest.

Lindsay
X

Good to see you posting again John :D

Lindsay wrote: Now come on Lou! first of all, this thread is not about you or me - it's about, or was about, training collars (not just e collars).

LC:  Lindsay you're the one who brought up a prior conversation you say took place, not me.  You're the one who said that you'd trained something without aversives not me.  I merely said that I didn't remember that conversation and challenged you, as I would anyone, who said that they'd trained anything without aversives.  I'm not stopping anyone from discussing any other type of training collar if they want to. 

Lindsay wrote: By constantly picking at everything, you are disrupting the thread. I am giving you very brief answers in an attempt to not disrupt this too much but still you persist.

LC:  Again, you're the one who brought up our prior conversation, not me.  If this thread about training collars has been disrupted, you're the one who started the side conversation.  I've only been responsive to your comments. 

Lindsay wrote: Short memory maybe on your side, but we have already discussed exactly this on Dogchat some time ago.

LC:  So what?  If you want to bring it to this forum you're free to.  I didn't bring it up in the first place.  If you think it has some application to the topic let's talk, if not why did you bring it up. 

Lindsay wrote: No, I haven't used any aversives

LC:  You have but you refuse to admit it.  If you used toys in your training I have no doubt that at some point the dog expected the toy and you didn't give it to him, that's an aversive.  Aversives don't have to hurt, they don't have to be painful and they can be of quite a wide nature.  You have a hard time admitting this just as I'm sure you did in our prior conversation because you've been telling people for quite some time that you don't use aversives in your training.  But it's simply not true. 

Lindsay wrote:  I'm also not prepared to go over and over this, pedantically 

LC:  Then why did you bring it up?  And why to you keep referring to it? 

Lindsay wrote: Now please have the decency to accept my comments and not go on and on picking at my answers so that i have to come back and reply yet again.

LC:  You're not required to reply to any of my posts.  In fact, earlier you said that you didn't even read them!  Now it's quite apparent that you do!  Telling people that you didn't use aversives in your training is not true.  It's IMPOSSIBLE to train in the absence of aversives.  In order to have rewards you have to have the opposite, punishment.  You may prefer other language because it makes you feel better, but to pretend that you don't use aversives is to try to mislead people. 

LC:  Just give us a short description of what you did to stop your dog from chasing the squirrels and I'll show you where the aversives are.  If you don't want to continue the discussion that's fine, but as long as you make misleading statements I'll correct them.  

LOL Lou.
I know perfectly well exactly what an aversive is - yes, withholding toys, the lot. I know my learning theory very well thankyou, but you also know that most people handling dogs don't understand an aversive means hot sun on back, withholding toys etc. I do, and you know that i do.

You mention i am reading your posts -yes, now; i am skimming more thoroughly because you are directly addressing me, but I haven't even read all of your last one, because I've heard it all before.

<<as long as you make misleading statements I'll correct them>>

*snort*

By the way - you state that the opposite of reward is punishment. In fact it's not - it's "no reward".

Hey ho! I have some shopping to do - as I said Lou, you can think what you like. I know you'll be happy to do that.

Lindsay

what is it in the US with training with pain?im on a US ob site & all they go on about is using prong collars to sharpen up the dogs responses. its all sick.

I think that what it probably means is that there are more people in the US that go for the LEAST INPUT/INSTANT GRATIFICATION training methods - not prepared to put in hours of hard work, building bonds with your dogs, etc.

These people (fortunately only a few - at least I hope that is the case) are trying desperately to indoctrinate trainers over here.   

Margot

what LAZY people you mean?
its totally sick to zap a dog with electricity to train it.
if anybody disagrees come to my house,i will stick your collar around your neck & teach you something. then we will see
A. how much it hurts
B.how much you learn
C.how much you hate me afterwards

There are times when i'm so glad i live here in the UK. There are some great trainers in America, but  you hear of poor owners who went to classes that advocated prongs etc. first before realising they were doing more harm than good. Most trainers advocate yanking the  prong. Idiots. I feel quite sick sometimes at the way we, as supposedly the most intelligent species, forget we have to communicate with the dog and help it understand us and our requirements.

Experience has shown me that even with my pushy dog it's sensible training that can solve everything and there's no need for electric collars, prongs, etc. Anne Bussey who won November working trials TD Kennel Club championships doesn't use any of that stuff ;)

Lindsay
X

I'm glad moonmaiden reminded me of Shutzhund, there is another trainer in Crawley I'd forgot about, he's in the White Rose Shutzhund club and has Von wolf kennels at Smallfield, they are well used and sold in shutzhund circles and he does training courses or individual classes if your in that area, he also sold Dogtra collars at white rose shutzhund club.

He gave someone I sent one lesson with two dogs, she had not been able to let one of them off lead for 6 years, she had both off forever the following day, so he's good if you or anyone else needing help is around that way, glad I was reminded of schutzhund.

If your in the Basildon area the Schutzhund helper there uses an Innotek collar but I have no idea if he gives training courses, I somehow think he does not. In Norfolk you can get training from that shutzhund club owner. Ian Walshaw is in Yorks, he sells Dogtra collars, he is in the Shutzhund club, he gives phone support, maybe lessons I don't know.

Dougi who was placed in the top three of the British team in the world championships last  year is in Scotland uses them, maybe there is someone there if you are around there. Many went on to Innotek collars last year after they had a seminar with Bart Ballon, the European Innotek trainer so you are never far away from a competant e-trainer really and even if you are the prices are realistic and unlike other systems have excellent results. Erica Reudenaur, wife of the president, uses them and she came 5th in the ScH worlds, in I think 2001.

I know there are a lot of e-trainers around the new forest Bournmouth way but I don't know any of them.

The Schutzhund trainer I know personally is a German Schutzhund judge & she has more experience than any trainer in this country & has never ever used an E collar, she has qualified her own dogs & those of others & when I mention e collars she shakes her haed & tells me they are for bad trainers & that the use at the training places are banned, What these trainers use privately does not mean they needed & shows them for what they are bad handlers & trainers.  She can also tell which dogs have been trained using them

Why do you use these false names,  will your next name be dozey, beaky, mick or titch Dennis ?

She does know of you & I can't put on here what she thinks of you & others who sell &/or use these behaviour amending things

BTW I do not need any help training my dogs & would never ever use an e collar I certainly do not need advice from you nor others of your kind

Denis Carthy wrote: My Fox40 has many benefits but it is the most dangerous training aid I have, if your dogs out of site and suspected of chasing in wind you should NEVER use them, the dog is highly unlikely to get the direction correct and if its down wind of the whistle and you don't know, that whistle can carry a couple of miles, a dog can travel half a mile in a couple of minuets, if that's in the wrong direction your dog is in deep trouble. NEVER use a whistle in woodland if you cannot see the dog, the sound waves bounce around all over the place off trees and he/she will head of in any direction.

For dogs prone to running into woodland the safest thing is to train the dog to go down instantly and use a tracker with them all the time. The best sound for signalling the down in woodland is the tone on an e-collar, the same applies to dogs prone to use a long range and go out of sight, once they are commanded down you use the tracker to get them but whatever whistle you use hem with extreme care.
_________________________

John: No gundog trainer in the UK that I know uses a Fox40 whistle. Most use the Acme. Our dogs spend most of the day in woodland, a large part of the time out of sight. They have absolutely no problem picking up direction from the sound of the whistle. This is taken care of by having two ears, just as humans use the same facility. Electric collars are most definitely NOT needed for this.

As for stock worrying. Again, the average working gundog trainer has no problem proofing their dog around livestock right from a very early age. My own dog has consistently been expected to be around cattle since the age of 12 weeks, this again without having to resort to electric collars or any other harsh discipline.

To LC and Davedee,can you please answer a few questions for me? Do you care about dogs?If your answer is yes then why would you want to put them thru pain?Before you say "oh but electric shock collars dont cause pain" whats the use then?Why are electric shock collars banned in other countries if they are humane??

I dont have any respect for people who choose the easy way out,training should be about creating a bond with dog and owner and gaining trust,which can take a long time,NOT shocking the dog into submission

I love my dogs so much,i am more than willing to put the time and effort into training them without resorting to electric shock collars!

How would you like it if your wife slapped a electric shock collar on your neck to make you do what she  wanted?
Or better yet what would you think about using  electric shock collars on our children to pain them into submission?

Sprout
I was hoping that somebody could give me some advice on remote training devices. I have a delightful (but independent willed) young ridgeback, who will behave perfectly in the house, garden and training class (with a pocket full of treats), but becomes completely deaf when we're out walking and something exciting happens (i.e. we meet another dog, runner, cyclist, horse & rider or deer

Davedee
I'll borrow Lou Castles style it's a neat, clear way to write. The problem is not you, not chasing and not your dog. Your training class is failing you unless they suggested find something out about remotes, they should have told you some time ago that the lessons they are giveing you are causing problems, I doubt they did that.

Because of the methods you have been taught your dog is positively reinforcing ignoring behaviours each time she ignores you, ignoring behaviours = disobedience. You are right to look at remotes they are your answer if one is used as one of the training aids. The fact that you are at a training class of any sort suggests you need a training class anyway and one where they will add a remote to the lessons.

Sprout
I'm hoping to at least stop her chasing

Davedee
This is where irresponsible groups and non knowledgeable individuals have mislead people like you about e-training collars. They speak beyond their own knowledge, outside their experience and people such as you end up with a dog on the verge of being handed to a rescue or being punished by being kept on the lead all its life, causing serious welfare problems for the dog and a lifetime of misery for both dog and family.

Chasing is nothing more than an obedience problem i.e. she should chase when you allow it and recall to you when you recall, no one need deprive their dog of chases they are a reward of immense value to the dog.

What needs to be enhanced and changed in your case is the obedience program you use. If you got an e-collar ( sprays are never recommended, sales statistics of 50-1 + in favour of statics prove that ) and just used it for a quick fix to stop chasing you then find that there were other situations where she would not recall or she would do this or that and you would not be able to stop her by saying "No" or "leave", so you do not get a remote e-collar for a patch up job, that's not what they or for.

Sprout
I know ridgebacks are hounds and love to chase, but some forms of chase are more socially acceptable than others,

Davedee,
I could not agree more and all this needs is a heightened obedience program. It is the training schedule which counts as much as the tools used within it, when the combination is right you will achieve the results you envisage and more important, without stress of any kind for you and your dog. Dogs must always be a welcome, beneficial addition to a family, once they become a problem they are a negative member of the family and no matter how hard people try it will reflect on the people and dogs quality of life.

Sprout
and I don't want her causing a nuisance to other people.

Davedee
Very responsible attitude and rare these days, all to often I hear "Oh they should undertand its a dog" "They should know it takes time"-people who have nothing to do with dogs or who do not like dogs have every right to be left alone by dogs.

Sprout
As I've said, I do normal training with her, and she is generally very responsive, but it's just all too exciting when we're out and about and she's off the lead.

Davedee
Yes your right but don't underestimate the consequences this seemingly 'small' area of control can cost your dog. It can cost her lifetime freedom and I doubt if you or any of your family will be happy with lead walks forever.

Sprout
I was hoping to find out about devices that will help me to get her attention.

Davedee
I recommend the Dogtra collars but based on all that you have written you do need an obedience course, it's the training techniques you need to learn, e-collars are very easy, the easiest of all training aids but its no use standing in afield with a transmitter in your hand wondering "What exercise do I give her to stop chasing and recall" and it's the lessons you need to be taught.

To be honest no matter where you are in the country-if your outside the London area its worthwhile going to one of the two trainers in Crawley-one only charged £20 for a lesson with 2 dogs, one of which had never been off lead for six years and the lady had a recall with both dogs the day after, in her own words

*** "Well what can I say; our lives have been transformed after just ONE session which only cost £20, my trainer was truly proffesional and with just that ONE lesson BOTH my dogs had a full recall after all those years of suffering on a lead.  My husband and I are elated with the collars, the stress just lifted like a fluffy cloud.  Our dogs now go off lead and to see them run and play is a joy which brings tears to my eyes."***

What is significant about the above case is this-she is in fact quite typical, she herself saw two vislas and could not believe how well trained they were, she asked how he had trained them and he told her he used an e-collar as an aid, she got one, took one lesson and now 4 more people in the fairly small S England town she is from have also done the same with exactly the same results. This is happening all over the UK more and more each week.

So if you did have to travel you would not travel many times and what you would learn was what many people block themselves from learning, preferring to spread and advocate ignorance as a 1st option.

Anyway, you have my email: davedee@zipido.com

Below are just a few options common throught the UK and no solutions in sight.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/59041.html

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/65050.html

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/62974.html

happy owners,really unhappy confused dogs i bet!

Lindsay wrote: I know perfectly well exactly what an aversive is - yes, withholding toys, the lot. I know my learning theory very well thankyou

LC:  Then you know that you DID use aversives in training your dog not to chase squirrels, in spite of your very obvious brag that you used "NO AVERSIVES at all." 

Lindsay wrote: but you also know that most people handling dogs don't understand an aversive means hot sun on back, withholding toys etc. I do, and you know that i do.

LC:  It makes no difference what anyone else knows or doesn't know.  You're purposefully misleading people by telling them that you didn't use aversives and that you don't use them in your training.  In fact since you now admit that you do and that you've known all along that you do; some might go so far as to say that you've been lying to people when you tell them that you don't use aversives in your training. 

Lindsay wrote: You mention i am reading your posts -yes, now; i am skimming more thoroughly because you are directly addressing me, but I haven't even read all of your last one, because I've heard it all before.

LC:  OK we all understand now, you're reading part of some of them but only skimming the rest.  As long as we have that clear.  Thanks for keeping us up to date on your reading habits. 

Earlier I wrote:  as long as you make misleading statements I'll correct them

And Lindsay wrote:  *snort*

LC:  I don't know what this means but since you now admit that you DO use aversives in your training we're good on that point.  As I said, several times you've made the "misleading statement" that you don't use aversives in your training and now, because I've pinned you down, you admit that you do. 

Lindsay wrote: By the way - you state that the opposite of reward is punishment. In fact it's not - it's "no reward".

LC:  You're quite wrong and it's surprising since you say that you "know (your) learning theory very well thankyou."  A reward (or a reinforcement) is anything that will tend to make a behavior repeat.  A punishment is anything that will tend to make a behavior NOT repeat.  So we can clearly see that "no reward" is a form of punishment, it's not the only form and it's NOT the opposite of reward.  I thought it was amazing how you first said that you didn't use aversives, then you said that they'd be hard to find then finally you admitted that you DO use them.  But now when we realize that your knowledge of Operant Conditioning is so lacking it's not that surprising. 

Lindsay wrote:  Hey ho! I have some shopping to do

LC:  Really Lindsay we're interested in neither your reading habits nor your shopping habits; but I hope you're having as much fun as I am!  Wondering if Lindsay is ever going to get off this personal point and get back to the topic of training collars.  I'll go first in another post. 

Lokis mum wrote: I would rather be considered Rude than Cruel.

LC:  It really isn't an "either or" situation.  You may consider me to be cruel but that's because you have in your head an idea that the tool I use is cruel because it causes pain to the dogs.  You're unwilling to admit that there are other ways of using the tool than you're familiar with.  Because of that closed minded attitude you think I'm cruel.  The reality is that the Ecollar is one of the more humane tools that exists in dog training. 

Lokis mum wrote: For your information, I own two labradors (1 age 8, 1 aged 15 months) and four aussies (1 age 7, 1 age 5, two age 28 months).    I also have arthritis in one shoulder.   By using a derivitive of the halti (gentle leader) I am able to contain all six exited dogs getting out of a vehicle without stress or strain upon myself or my dogs.

LC:  Thanks for sharing your dog family and your health status (although what it has to do with the topic I'm not sure).  I have four dogs here.  Three GSD's and a Belgian Shepherd.  I have arthritis in both shoulders both knees and one ankle.  By using the Ecollar to train them, I am able to contain all four dogs when getting out of a vehicle without stress of strain upon myself or my dogs. 

Lokis mum wrote: They settle, walk to heel, have good recall without extremes.   

LC:  Hey, what a coincidence!  Mine settle, walk to heel and have EXCELLENT recalls, without extremes. 

Moonmaiden wrote:  when I mention e collars she shakes her haed & tells me they are for bad trainers

LC:  All you have there is someone such as many other folks on this list.  They only know one way to use the tool, for punishment.  That's not what I do and I always have difficulty in understanding why people refuse to accept that.  I guess it's easier to stay where you are than to admit that you don't know everything and be open to learn something new. 

LC:  In any case an Ecollar won't make a bad trainer into a good one.  So in her opinion, since I use an Ecollar, I guess I'm a bad trainer.  In my opinion she's not fully educated if she doesn't know how to use every tool out there.  But I'll be happy to enlighten her.  By the way, if I'm such a bad trainer, how come people keep requesting my services?  In the past three weeks I did a presentation for SKIDDS (SWAT and K-9 Interacting During Deployment School) and for the UTT School (Urban Tactical Training).  I've been invited back by both.  At least three police departments want me to come out and help them with training.  There are at least three SAR groups that want me for a seminar and one group who runs a shelter.  I have more private clients than I want and the only way they find me is by word of mouth.  I don't advertise.  But what do any of those folks know? 

Moonmaiden wrote:  She can also tell which dogs have been trained using them

LC:  That's probably true using the tool only as punishment.  But again, it's not what I do. 

Moonmaiden wrote: BTW I do not need any help training my dogs & would never ever use an e collar I certainly do not need advice from you nor others of your kind

LC:  Yaknow it's funny.  I've been told this same thing, "I'd never use . . . " or "I'd never need . . . " many times before.  I can't tell you the number of times those same people have called me and said that they gotten the right (wrong) dog and that they now "needed an Ecollar."  So while YOU don't need our advice, the original poster asked for it. 

John wrote: As for stock worrying. Again, the average working gundog trainer has no problem proofing their dog around livestock right from a very early age.

LC:  Interesting John because this is precisely the reason that Ecollars were first invented, it's called crittering here in the US.  They sprang up at several locations including the US and the UK at about the same time. 

John wrote: My own dog has consistently been expected to be around cattle since the age of 12 weeks,

LC:  It's great that you were able to train this from a puppy.  I think that's the best way.  But what do you do for those who have a problem with an adult dog? 

John wrote: this again without having to resort to electric collars or any other harsh discipline.

LC:  Another forum member said that you're a good trainer So I wonder, how it is that you only know one way to use the Ecollar?  If you were better informed, you'd know that the Ecollar is NOT "harsh discipline," it's one of the gentlest tools used in dog training. 

rose wrote:  why would you want to put them thru pain?Before you say "oh but electric shock collars dont cause pain" whats the use then?

LC:  Have you read what I wrote earlier about pain being a continuum from one extreme to the other?  Often when I'm out training with my dogs people will ask what that is that they're wearing.  Usually I remove the Ecollar and have them feel the stim.  Almost universally they say the same thing, "Is that all it is?"  They describe the stim as a "buzz" or a "tingle."  When their children feel it, they giggle.  I have a hard time calling something "pain" that makes children giggle.  Have you ever felt the low levels of stim that a modern Ecollar is capable of? 

Rose wrote: Why are electric shock collars banned in other countries if they are humane??

LC:  Because uninformed people give legislators their uninformed opinion.  Such folks are organized into so called "humane societies" and they're persistent in their efforts.  They're not interested in learning the truth about the tool because their real agenda is lobbying power.  If they backed down after years of trying to get the tool banned they'd lose face and credibility. 

LC:  They sometimes aren't bound by truth and honesty as was proven in a case in Australia a few years back where the RSPCA there lied and said that a bark collar could burn a dog's neck.  They had photos and testimony of someone who had three burn marks on his arm.  He testified that he'd gotten the burns from a bark collar.  The only problem was that the middle contact point on the Ecollar that he'd said had burned him was made of plastic.  It didn't have anything to do with the stim that the dog gets when he barks.  The photos were exposed as a fraud. 

LC:  On the other side are the manufacturers and the trainers.  They're not nearly as organized and don't have a "society" to support their side.  But going by what other countries do has a mixed effect.  In some parts of the world they cut off the hands of thieves.  In some parts of the world a woman who's thought to have been raped against her will is cast out into the desert to die.  Her family's property and livestock is seized and they're left to beg in the streets.  Just because another country does something is not an indication that everyone else should. 

Rose wrote:  I dont have any respect for people who choose the easy way out

LC:  Why is something better because it's hard? 

Rose wrote: training should be about creating a bond with dog and owner and gaining trust,which can take a long time

LC:  I've been using Ecollars for over 18 years and have never had any problems in gaining a dog's trust, nor in bonding.  Neither have my clients. 

Rose wrote: NOT shocking the dog into submission

LC:  Rose you just confirmed with I've said repeatedly.  Most people and you're among that group, only know one way to use an Ecollar, as you say by shocking a dog into submission.  Why is it so hard to believe that there's another way that the tool can be used? 

Rose wrote: I love my dogs so much,i am more than willing to put the time and effort into training them without resorting to electric shock collars!

LC:  Same question as above; why do you think that something is better just because it takes more time and effort? 

Rose wrote:  How would you like it if your wife slapped a electric shock collar on your neck to make you do what she  wanted?

LC:  You're still hung up on the submission method of using the tool.  There's at least one other way, and probably more. 

Rose wrote: Or better yet what would you think about using  electric shock collars on our children to pain them into submission?

LC:  "Pain into submission" isn't how I use the Ecollar. 

michelled wrote:  happy owners,really unhappy confused dogs i bet!

LC:  Actually quite the opposite is the case.  The owners are happy because FINALLY they've got a recall (or whatever else they wanted) and the dog are happy because the communication is so clear AND their owners are no longer frustrated with their lack of performance.  Not many other tools allow for such clear communication between the dogs and their owners. 

Lou Castle wrote:  Another forum member said that you're a good trainer So I wonder, how it is that you only know one way to use the Ecollar?
_______________________

In case you did not see my earlier post Mr Castle, I'll repeat it.

John wrote: I have a book written by a "Respected" American gundog trainer. In it he says his Labrador is "Hard Driving" so when taking part in working tests, because Electric collars are not allowed in a test, he allows the dog out of the car and as it jumps out he gives it what he euphemistically calls "A nick" just to remind it!

If his training was so perfect why would that be necessary? I never need to resort to such tactics when working my dogs!
___________________

This is a person who's book is pushed on just about every American gundog site. It seems to me that these people need the lessons, not those of us who have no need of electric collars.
___________________________

John wrote: As for stock worrying. Again, the average working gundog trainer has no problem proofing their dog around livestock right from a very early age.

LC:  Interesting John because this is precisely the reason that Ecollars were first invented, it's called crittering here in the US.  They sprang up at several locations including the US and the UK at about the same time.
___________________________

John: Electric collars have been around for a long time but in my 50 years of training I have never ever seen anyone using one for anything other than remedial work. Not because we have not read the blurb or because we do not understand the workings of them but because we have no need of them. I find it so interesting that the trade in working Labradors is into America rather than the other way and one of the oft sited reasons is that after years of use of electric collars the working dogs left in the US are such "Hard Ba*&^&ds" (Their words, not mine) that people are now trying to bring dogs into the states which have the more usual (In the UK) temperaments. Electric collars have ruined the working Labradors in the states. Last year, a Springer was imported from the UK into the US and within a couple of weeks it had won one of the US top events. It then went into Canada and cleaned up there. That dog had never seen an electric collar. Don't ask me the name of the dog or the event, Springers are not my breed and at the time when I read it in the press I had no reason to make notes.

John wrote: In case you did not see my earlier post Mr Castle, I'll repeat it.

LC:  I saw it John but after your silliness with the posts on being evasive, I wrote you off.  I decided that rather than play time wasting games with you, I'd not bother with you unless you addressed me specifically. 

John wrote: If his training was so perfect why would that be necessary?

LC:  Since someone else wrote this and you've not even mentioned who that author was, I felt no reason to respond.  All sorts of people do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons and I'll not guess why this trainer does anything; especially since I have no idea of who he is.  Perhaps if I knew him, I might.  But since you've chosen to keep his identity and the name of his book to yourself, you've denied me the opportunity. 

LC:  In any case it's not something I do.  I'd suggest that you write to that author and ask him why he does what he does. 

John wrote: I never need to resort to such tactics when working my dogs! 

LC:  You've mentioned that you work with your dogs from a very young age.  If you're even a halfway decent trainer that makes it easy to head off problems but not everyone does that.  In fact I'd guess that more people don't do it than do.  Many people, even if they get a puppy, and have the opportunity to do so, don't work with them right away.  They wait until they have a problem and then it's often too late; especially if they've little experience in training dogs. 

John wrote: It seems to me that these people need the lessons, not those of us who have no need of electric collars.

LC:  I've written before that no one "needs" an Ecollar.  But they're here now and people are going to be using them no matter what anyone thinks.  I think that the best course at this point in time is education and that's why I'm here.  You and just about everyone else on this forum keeps talking about cruelty, inhumanity and pain because you only know about the tool being used as a punishment device.  That's not how I use the tool.  And this isn't the only forum where I present my ideas. 

John wrote: Electric collars have been around for a long time but in my 50 years of training I have never ever seen anyone using one for anything other than remedial work.

LC:  When you use the term "remedial work" do you mean cleaning up behaviors that the dog already knows or something else? 

John wrote: I find it so interesting that the trade in working Labradors is into America rather than the other way and one of the oft sited reasons is that after years of use of electric collars the working dogs left in the US are such "Hard Ba*&^&ds" (Their words, not mine) that people are now trying to bring dogs into the states which have the more usual (In the UK) temperaments.

LC:  I know lots of gun dog trainers and none of them feel this way.  It's obvious that we run in different circles.  There are all sorts of reason why trainers "go elsewhere" for dogs.  I've never heard anyone say that the reason for it was Ecollars. 

John wrote:  Electric collars have ruined the working Labradors in the states.

LC:  Oh nonsense.  This is nothing but your opinion.  I disagree. 

>John wrote:  Electric collars have ruined the working Labradors in the states.

LC:  Oh nonsense.  This is nothing but your opinion.  I disagree.

It's also the opinion of anyone (including the Americans I've met) who've seen UK and European dogs working in the field.

I'm positive that I've met more American gun dog handlers and trainers than you have.  NOT ONE of them has attributed any decline in the dogs in the US to the Ecollar.  in fact not one of them has mentioned any such decline at all. 

Perhaps if you'd care to name names we could resolve this.  

With American's perchance of going to the courts? I THINK NOT!

>in fact not one of them has mentioned any such decline at all. 

I'd be willing to bet that's because they've never seen the results achieved by conventional methods used by able trainers, so they're in blissful ignorance of the true state of affairs.

>I'll borrow Lou Castles style it's a neat, clear way to write.

No it isn't. It's very unclear, bitty and confusing, but oddly familiar - the only other posters to use that style have only ever posted about electric shock collars. Coincidence?

it is confusing way to write i agree,why not do it the same as EVERYBODY else! maybe youll learn if your PC gives you a nasty shock next time you try to write a long post with tons of quotes,or maybe youll just then feel confused & hurt & wonder what on earth your pc could mean by that.

hiya sprout,i think youd be better off getting a LONG training line & going back to basics TBH.

Im glad Michelled D mentioned a long line, I forgot.
Sprout, when your starting a dog on an e-recall you start with a long line, I prefere a tracking line of about 20 foot they are pliable some prefre thos flexi things I cannot use them that well, tracking lines cost about £10.

you can  use a long line WITHOUT using a electric collar, or any other type of "training" collar.
suerly youd prefer your dog to return to you because he wanted to & was trained kindly to do so.

Yea, use a 20 ft tracking line AND an E-collar - see how much further from you your dog can get :(

Sprout, I do hope by now you are realised just how inhumane the methods being advocated by Davedee and Lou Castle are!!!!

The other methods do take time and trouble - but you will have a dog that is HAPPY to return to you.

Margot

hell ,sod the dog & get a robot that NEEDS electricity to work!

Judging from the responses from Lou Castle and Daveydee, maybe they ARE the robots :D

Margot

[bold]LC:  Rose you just confirmed with I've said repeatedly.  Most people and you're among that group, only know one way to use an Ecollar, as you say by shocking a dog into submission.  Why is it so hard to believe that there's another way that the tool can be used[bold]

OK Lou - just TELL us how you do this?????  Not by cutting and pasting large lumps from other posts, nor giving links to other posts - just TELL us how it is!

You have been asked this before, but prevaricate all the time.......

So - cut the c**p and tell us ...... we're waiting

Margot

Lokis mum wrote: Yea, use a 20 ft tracking line AND an E-collar - see how much further from you your dog can get

LC:  I prefer to use a retractable leash, called a Flexi here.  I'm not sure what they're called in the UK. 

Lokis mum wrote: Sprout, I do hope by now you are realised just how inhumane the methods being advocated by Davedee and Lou Castle are!!!!

LC:  I don't see how anyone could make such a determination based on what's been written.  I've continually said that I use such low levels that they're about the discomfort of a flea bite.  At that level children giggle.  Is it "inhumane" to make children giggle? 

Lokis mum wrote: The other methods do take time and trouble - but you will have a dog that is HAPPY to return to you.

LC:  I'd challenge anyone to have a dog that's happier to return to them than mine are to me. 

And I have challenged you....

Margot

Here's a common myth about Ecollars.  You must have perfect timing or be an expert trainer or a "professional" to use an Ecollar

And here's the truth.  No one, not the best of trainers, has perfect timing all the time.  Even the best trainer can only work for so long, usually a matter of minutes, before his concentration falls off and his "perfect timing" becomes merely "very good timing." 

I like to use snakeproofing to show how this myth really works.  When I do snake proofing I want the dog to avoid the smell of the poisonous snake as well as sight of the snake.  As I lead him towards the area where I know the snake smell is present I'll see a change in the dog's body posture that tells me that he smelling something new.  If I have perfect timing I'll hit the button, applying the stimulation at that instant.  Since the only thing new in the dog's life at that instant is the smell of the snake, most dogs will make the connection between the pain of the stimulation and the snake odor.  They will, for quite some time, avoid that smell because they associate it with the pain of the stimulation.  (Note: a much higher level of stimulation is used when snakeproofing because contact with a poisonous snake is EXTREMELY dangerous for the dogs.  Death, deformity, or serious injury can result from a bite.) 

But let's say that today my timing is off a bit and it's only "very good."  As the dog enters the area where snake odor is present his body will change physically but because my timing isn't perfect, I don't give a stimulation at that instant.  The dog, wondering what that new smell is, walks along the edge of the odor trying to find the source.  After the dog has been in the scent for a few seconds I press the button applying the stimulation.  Since the dog has been in the scent for a few seconds it will take several repetitions before he gets the idea that it's the odor that's different and make the association between it and the pain of the stimulation. 

Now let's view one more circumstance.  The dog gets the scent of the snake, follows it to the source and puts his head into the box containing the snake.  (The snake is prevented from injuring the dog because his mouth is taped shut so he can't bite.)  The snake will probably strike ineffectually at the dog a few times until the dog tires of this and wanders off.  If I have "very bad timing" NOW is when I press the button, causing a high level of pain to the dog.  What will he learn?  He'll learn that moving away from a poisonous snake brings pain.  He'll learn that whenever he smells a poisonous snake he should move as close to him as possible to avoid that pain again! 

And so, if you have perfect timing, training progresses VERY quickly.  If you have good timing, training takes a little longer.  If you have so-so timing training takes longer still.  If you have HORRIBLE timing, either no training occurs or the wrong training can occur.  Anyone who can train a dog with a leash and collar can use an Ecollar effectively.  Even many who aren't coordinated enough to give a correction can learn to use an Ecollar effectively.  Even people who have severe arthritis or an injury who are incapable of giving a correction with a leash can use an Ecollar.  If you have HORRIBLE timing as discussed in the last paragraph above, sell your dog and get a goldfish.  Timing isn't important with them. 

first you say it hurts as much as a flea bite, then you say "causing a high level" of pain?
odd now im confused? do they hurt or not?

err,if it dosent hurt then how does it work? ?

michelled wrote:  first you say it hurts as much as a flea bite, then you say "causing a high level" of pain?  odd now im confused? do they hurt or not? 

LC:  Modern Ecollars have dials on them that allow for the level of stim to be set manually.  At the highest levels they're quite painful.  At the lowest levels no one can feel them.  By adjusting the setting you can place it where the dog first perceives the stim.  In a few moments you'll be able to read my article that tells how to select the dog's working level of stim. 

Lokis mum wrote: OK Lou - just TELL us how you do this?????  Not by cutting and pasting large lumps from other posts, nor giving links to other posts - just TELL us how it is!  You have been asked this before, but prevaricate all the time.......

LC:  "Prevaricate?"  I've not lied about anything.  If you disagree please let me know where and when that's occurred.  In any case, here's an (edited) article on how to find the dog's working level of stim.  That's where he'll spend his training life. 

+++++++++++++++

You want to work the dog at the lowest level of stimulation that he can just perceive.  Put the dog on a leash and take him outside.  Let him settle down so he's not fixated on anything or highly distracted by anything. 

For the Dogtra Ecollars which have the continuously variable stimulation, set the dial on "0" and press the Continuous button quickly three times.  Since the Ecollar isn't putting out any stim at this setting you won't see anything from the dog.  Turn it up just a little.  Continue in this fashion to SLOWLY turn the dial up until you see some sign that the dog is feeling the stimulation. 

There are many such signs.  One of the most common is that the dog will sit down and scratch as if a flea is biting him.  Some signs are subtler than that though.  They include an ear flick, a quick look at the ground directly in front of the dog, a pulling back as if a grasshopper landed on the dog, moving to another place, locking up (rigidity of the legs).  Sometimes all that is noticeable is a furrowing of the dog's brow.  A dog may also rear up, raising his front legs off the ground.  A dog that does this may do so because of a startle reflex.  He's not in pain he's just been startled. 

When the dog shows you that he just perceives the stimulation level, you've found his working level.  This may change slightly up or down.  Some dogs become used to that level and it will need to be shifted up a touch.  Some dogs become sensitized to that level and it will need to be turned down. 

The point is that it's totally inhumane to expect any dog owner, any member of the public, to use this on their dog (probably buying a cheap collar off Ebay with little or no instruction) and maybe first time owners with a new dog or puppy.  Anyone who says otherwise is advocating cruelty IMO.

It doesn't matter how gentle the lower levels may be - it will get turned up when owner gets frustrated. That's what concerns me mainly.

Lindsay

Its interesting to be able to see from a distance a dog trained by electric collar by presumably a member of the ordinary dog owning public -I hope it wasnt trained by a so called professional anyway.

A few weeks ago, i saw a very strange dog, normally a very friendly bouncy happy breed. I saw it approach another dog and thought "what's wrong?" As i got closer, i saw it wore an electric collar. I am usually able to see straight away how dogs are trained, you do get a nose for it - I did feel sorry for this dog. It seemed unsure about anything, even moving forwards,  and was uncharacteristically quiet for its breed. Not a happy boy at all :(

Lindsay
X

Lindsay wrote: Its interesting to be able to see from a distance a dog trained by electric collar

LC:  One thing that often happens when I'm training a dog in front of a group is that someone will ask after about ten minutes, when I'm going to start stimming the dog.  Often the group consists of experts in all sorts of dog training.  My reply is that I'd been stimming the dog since I started working him. 

Lindsay wrote: A few weeks ago, i saw a very strange dog, normally a very friendly bouncy happy breed. I saw it approach another dog and thought "what's wrong?" As i got closer, i saw it wore an electric collar. I am usually able to see straight away how dogs are trained, you do get a nose for it - I did feel sorry for this dog. It seemed unsure about anything, even moving forwards,  and was uncharacteristically quiet for its breed. Not a happy boy at all 

LC:  That's a good example of a dog that may have been trained with an Ecollar used improperly.  You may think that's the cause of his behavior and it may be, but without seeing it or having the owner tell you that's the case, you're guessing.  But in any case, you won't see such behavior from a dog that's been trained with my method.  There's no change in the dog's behavior, except that the OB has improved. 

>My reply is that I'd been stimming the dog since I started working him.

Obviously either you were doing it whether he needed it or not, or he was so poorly trained that he needed it all the time. Poor dog. :(

Jeangenie wrote:  Obviously either you were doing it whether he needed it or not, or he was so poorly trained that he needed it all the time.

LC:  He needed it as described in my article on teaching the recall.  He had no recall at all (his owner had spent about a year trying to teach it with "all positive" methods, and was being trained as a SAR dog.  People's lives would depend on him being reliable. 

Jeangenie wrote: Poor dog. 

LC:  LOL.  The dog was as happy as could be.  The people present, including his owner, couldn't even tell that he was being stimmed, that's how little it bothered him. 

I'd be very disturbed about someone continually shocking (there's no such word as 'stimmed' so I won't use it) my dog. I'd be even more disturbed about the sort of person who would be prepared to continually shock a dog. I suppose it's a cultural difference. And clearly his owner was an ineffectual trainer who couldn't 'think dog', so had no chance of success.

Incidentally, a reminder from the Terms of Service that we all agree to abide by when posting on the Forum:
"Please do not include the entire message you are referencing in your response. "
:)

LC wrote: his owner had spent about a year trying to teach it with "all positive" methods, and was being trained as a SAR dog.

Wow! You lot need help! A dog being trained as a Search And Rescue dog who had received a years training and was STILL not recalling! I dont think you have anything you can teach us, not at that rate! Better if we come to give YOU people a few lessons!!

I find this 100% unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!