Hi,

I was hoping that somebody could give me some advice on remote training devices. I have a delightful (but independent willed) young ridgeback, who will behave perfectly in the house, garden and training class (with a pocket full of treats), but becomes completely deaf when we're out walking and something exciting happens (i.e. we meet another dog, runner, cyclist, horse & rider or deer - these last 4 are fair game to chase as far as she's concerned, as is the dog if it runs away). She becomes entirely engrossed in whatever the new and exciting discovery is, and seems to go deaf. I'm not sure I'll ever cure her of chasing deer, but I'm hoping to at least stop her chasing the others. I know ridgebacks are hounds and love to chase, but some forms of chase are more socially acceptable than others, and I don't want her causing a nuisance to other people. As I've said, I do normal training with her, and she is generally very responsive, but it's just all too exciting when we're out and about and she's off the lead.

I was hoping to find out about devices that will help me to get her attention (and potentially disuade bad behaviour such as chasing and jumping up) from a distance. I've done a little bit of searching on the web and have found out a bit about mist spray and citronella collars, but was wondering if anyone has experience using them? Or any effective alternatives?

Thanks in advance for any information or advice that you can give me.

I've used them in the past, but would only use them in future as a last resort to create a negative association with something I don't want the animal to have any kind of association with ever - such as sheep or, in your case, deer.  I certainly wouldn't use them to solve problems concerning humans or other dogs, because of the possibility of the dog associating the presence of the other animal with stress, and over reacting aggressively. Somebody I know got some of the spray on her arm and had what we suspect was a chemical  reaction.....

hi i have used the citronella collar in the past, found them to be quite good for recall, but if the are not pit on right ( they have to face up and not slip round) they do`nt work.

also for recall & jumping, i find the most effected thing is... a emty can i.e   coke can,fill wih pebbles tape the top, when they jump up , run off, dont say a word , throw the can onto the ground the nose should stop them doing what they shoud`nt, say no, come or what ever command you need , it stopped mine running off jumping up .hope this helps

p.s don`t let him see that it is coming from you.

I don't know if you should use it for jumping up.. I used to have one of those, and found that the awful citronella scent used to stay on my clothes when I touched it... don't think the other handlers would be too pleased!!

There are several things you can do for jumping up; you can clicker train (4 feet on floor), you can ignore, totally, so no eye contact or whatever, but in this case you also need to teach what you do want the dog to do, ie sit.

I taught my dog to stop jumping on visitors by keeping her in a separate room (childgate) for 20 minutes, then casting lots of tiny bits of food on the floor as we went in, gave all visitors strict instructions, also had a food pot and had taught her she got really tasty rewards from it, she would wait for that and not be bothered by visitors. Also good general obedience helps. After some time the dog doesn'tthink of jumping up because it has other habits.

It's a shame to use something which may potentially scare a dog and make it mistrust the owner. I believe you have to train for what you want - dogs ain't born knowing what to do, after all we are separate species ;)

Re the chasing, I would use a Masterplus as a last resort, with help from a reputable trainer (see www.apdt.co.uk for one near you). It is generally possible to stop dogs chasing other dogs, joggers etc (my dog is very chase orientated and I used reward based training/clicker etc for this) but sheep and deer are something else. My dog will recall off a running deer, horse etc, but it's very much an "emergency" situation I feel. Best not to let it happen. Allowed too often, the dog will start to enjoy it more than anything and that's where real problems start.

Take a peek at www.dog-partnership.co.uk for some info on livestock training :)

Good luck
Lindsay
x

sprout wrote:  I have a delightful (but independent willed) young ridgeback, who will behave perfectly in the house, garden and training class (with a pocket full of treats), but becomes completely deaf when we're out walking and something exciting happens

LC:  This is not an unusual circumstances.  I think the Ecollar is the perfect tool for such a dog. 

Sprout wrote: I'm not sure I'll ever cure her of chasing deer

LC:  There's a protocol on my website called "Crittering and Dog to Dog Aggression that will allow you to use the Ecollar to stop him from chasing all sorts of animals. 

Sprout wrote:  I've done a little bit of searching on the web and have found out a bit about mist spray and citronella collars, but was wondering if anyone has experience using them? Or any effective alternatives?

LC:  I'd suggest that you try those devices, but you'll probably find that they don't have any effect.  Make sure that your store will let you bring them back after they've been used. 

digger wrote:  I've used them in the past, but would only use them in future as a last resort to create a negative association with something I don't want the animal to have any kind of association with

LC:  This is the reason that Ecollars were invented.  But that method of using them, applying pain to the dog when he's doing something you don't want him to do is just one way of using the tool.  I suggest that you use it to teach new behaviors with.  Doing so is best done at the lowest level of stim that the dog can perceive, where it's merely uncomfortable; rather than the higher levels that cause pain. 

Digger wrote:  I certainly wouldn't use them to solve problems concerning humans or other dogs, because of the possibility of the dog associating the presence of the other animal with stress, and over reacting aggressively.

LC:  Such aggressive responses as you describe often occur with high levels of stim.  But they never occur with low stim use. 

Digger wrote:  Somebody I know got some of the spray on her arm and had what we suspect was a chemical  reaction..... 

LC:  If you do a Google search for citronella and MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) the warnings that must be included for shipping the substance, you'll find that it's classified as an irritant. 

jackbox wrote:  also for recall & jumping, i find the most effected thing is... a emty can i.e   coke can,fill wih pebbles tape the top, when they jump up , run off, dont say a word , throw the can onto the ground.

LC:  Try these too, before getting an Ecollar.  They're cheap and easy and they may work. 

Lindsay wrote:  It's a shame to use something which may potentially scare a dog and make it mistrust the owner.

LC:  If you're talking about the Ecollar here these can occur with high level stim use.  They don't occur if you use the tool set at low levels. 

Lindsay wrote: My dog will recall off a running deer, horse etc, but it's very much an "emergency" situation I feel. Best not to let it happen.

LC:  I developed the protocol I mentioned above for Police and SAR dogs.  Those folks don't have a choice as to allowing their dogs to find game.  When done properly, the dogs see the game and simply don't chase it.  The problem with using a recall is that the handler needs to see the chase start in order to call the dog off.  With my method the dog does the work. 

I have had electrical stimulation for a paralysed muscle, believe me if the levels are set to anything you can feel it is a very unpleasant experience making the heart race uncomfortably and that is as a human who understands the good it was doing for me and knowing it would not get worse and indeed would stop if I asked I can only imagine how terrifying it is to a dumb animal who doesn't appreciate all that.
You cannot promote your web site on this message board and as I find the idea of Ecollar (is electric shock collars just too long to type) abhorant I have reported your post to Admin to have that removed.

Isabel wrote:  I have had electrical stimulation for a paralysed muscle, believe me if the levels are set to anything you can feel it is a very unpleasant experience making the heart race uncomfortably and that is as a human who understands the good it was doing for me and knowing it would not get worse and indeed would stop if I asked I can only imagine how terrifying it is to a dumb animal who doesn't appreciate all that.

LC:  I've had years of physical therapy myself due to a string of injuries I suffered at work.  I've had every kind of electrical muscle stimulation that exists from Estim to TENS.  When set at high levels they're quite painful and I'm a sissy when it comes to electrical stimulation; but I found that when set at low levels it was actually relaxing.  I often fell asleep on the table. 

Isabel wrote: You cannot promote your web site on this message board and as I find the idea of Ecollar (is electric shock collars just too long to type) abhorant I have reported your post to Admin to have that removed. 

LC:  My apologies to everyone.  I checked the forum rules but didn't find anything against posting my website.  But I now know that it's not allowed so. Of course I won't do it again. 

LC:  I understand that you'd find the topic of Ecollars abhorrent as you've only seen one type of use of the Ecollar and that's very high levels of stim to break a dog from doing something that's not wanted.  If you'd only seen a hammer used to commit a murder, you'd probably have the same idea about that tool, but when you learned that it could be used in other ways, you might change your mind. 

TENS is painful too if you raise it to the level of being aware of it and surely there is little point in any electrical stimulus to dog that it is not going to be aware of.
I'm sorry if this sounds rude to a new poster.  I see from your details that you are in America, most people on this forum are from the UK where I think you will find our cultural differences make this pretty largely unacceptable.  We don't even share your way of dealing with transgressing humans let alone dogs :)  I note on your site that you are willing to take whatever action necessary and you talk about the fastest way I don't think this is acceptable if it pushes aside welfare.  If I had a dog that could not be cured of something like lifestock chasing (and there are plenty of trainers in the UK who I believe could deal with this by another other method) then I would prefer to always walk on lead, rehome or even put to sleep rather that put them through this sort of experience in line with my phylosophy that I would not put an animal through a painful drawn out therapy to cure an illness.
I will post no more on the subject, as I say I find it abhort I sure you are not a bad person but absolutely nothing you could say would make me consider it differently.

Isabel wrote:  TENS is painful too if you raise it to the level of being aware of it and surely there is little point in any electrical stimulus to dog that it is not going to be aware of.

LC:  I guess our experience of electrical stim as used in physical therapy is quite different.  As I said at low levels, where I first feel it, it's quite relaxing.  The difference in our opinion, while interesting isn't controlling.  I leave it to the readers who have had such therapy to decide for themselves.  I'm confident that they'll agree that when it's turned up high, it hurts, but at low levels it doesn't, or it's only mildly uncomfortable. 

Isabel wrote:  I'm sorry if this sounds rude to a new poster.  I see from your details that you are in America, most people on this forum are from the UK where I think you will find our cultural differences make this pretty largely unacceptable. 

LC:  What will our cultural differences "make . . . largely unacceptable?"  The original post asked about "remote training devices" and the Ecollar is one of them. 

Isabel wrote:  I note on your site that you are willing to take whatever action necessary

LC:  If it's between a dog stopping bad behavior or being returned to a shelter or put to sleep; if it's about stopping a dog from running in front of a speeding truck, yes, I'll do whatever's necessary.  But neither is necessary for me to use an Ecollar and it's clear that your experience with them is limited.  I'll suggest that there are other ways to use the tool that will fit into your sensibilities and your culture just fine. 

Isabel wrote:  and you talk about the fastest way I don't think this is acceptable if it pushes aside welfare. 

LC:  Neither do I.  But proper use of the tool doesn't "push aside welfare." 

Isabel wrote:  If I had a dog that could not be cured of something like lifestock chasing (and there are plenty of trainers in the UK who I believe could deal with this by another other method)

LC:  I'd suggest that this owner work with them first.  If those methods work, HOORAY.  But if they don't, then I'd recommend my method. 

Isabel wrote:  then I would prefer to always walk on lead, rehome or even put to sleep rather that put them through this sort of experience in line with my phylosophy that I would not put an animal through a painful drawn out therapy to cure an illness.

LC:  Use of the Ecollar to stop a dog from chasing game is neither "drawn out" nor "painful."  It happens in a couple of sessions lasting ten to fifteen minutes.  Usually when I'm doing it people can't even tell when I'm pushing the button on the Ecollar to stim the dog.  To put a dog to sleep just because he likes to chase game and you live in an area where game is present, is to me one of the most abhorrent things I've ever heard.  Particularly when the behavior can be stopped with little discomfort to the dog. 

LC:  Let's right away put into perspective this discussion of "pain."  Pain is a continuum that ranges from "I can't stand that another second!"  to "That's mildly uncomfortable."  An example of the first would be an Ecollar used at it's highest setting.  An example of the latter would be if you went outside and it was a bit too cold; so you went inside and got a sweater.  I work with the Ecollar at the latter levels.  Another example of where I work is based on what the dogs often do when they first feel the stim; that they scratch as if a flea was biting them.  I'd call that discomfort, but not pain.  I doubt that this kind of training is something that you've ever seen or heard of.  Your experience of the Ecollar is not all that's out there. 

Isabel wrote: I will post no more on the subject, as I say I find it abhort I sure you are not a bad person but absolutely nothing you could say would make me consider it differently. 

LC:  That's really a shame.  It's apparent that you only know one way to use an Ecollar.  I know many.  I hope that your attitude isn't shared by all others on this forum.  I've been training dogs for over 26 years and I'm always willing to learn something new.  Apparently you're not. 

>always willing to learn something new.  Apparently you're not

Mugging old ladies would be new to me but I'm not about to try it :rolleyes:

Isabel I'm not sure why you see fit to respond in this fashion.  Last time I checked the topic was "Dog Behavior" and "Training Collars" not "mugging old ladies." 

Lou, in the UK Ecollars are on the verge of being banned as inhumane. It's best to imagine that they are banned and try to come up with another way of dealing with the problem.

I wonder, perchance - would Lou Castle be the latest psuedonym for Daveydee???  

Him and the electric collars?????

...just wondering ;)

Margot

Mr Castle is well known on other K9 sites for working in 'colaboration' with a poster who has been banned from CD, but whose style bears more than a passing resemblance to DaveDees.......

I think you may be right, Margot! They're crawling out of the woodwork now, all spouting the usual drivel.

I think you're quite wrong Jeangenie.  In the last session some members of your legislature tried to ban Ecollars and failed.  Those who oppose them will probably try again, but just last month it was officially announced that your government had found no evidence at all against Ecollars to support any restrictions on sales of them.  

Lou - would you like an electric current running through you whilst you counted oneplustwopplusthreeplusfour
plusfiveplussixplussevenpluseightplusnineplusten
pluselevenplustwelve????  THAT's twelve seconds.

Just say it out loud......now - is that a "short sharp shock"???

Margot

Lokis mum wrote:  Lou - would you like an electric current running through you

LC:  Margot when I put on a seminar everyone feels the stim.  I've felt it myself thousands of times and often for a lot longer than twelve seconds. 

Lokis mum wrote:  now - is that a "short sharp shock"???

LC:  I wouldn't say that twelve seconds was "short" but everything is relative.  If you were trying to hold your breath, five minutes would seem an eternity.  But "short sharp shock" isn't a phrase that I've ever used so I wonder why you bring it up?  It's also not how I use the tool. 

I note on your site you state that the e collar is the best tool for most dogs :O So not just dogs with problems re chasing stock etc but just ordinary training of dogs, which would mean that if you were to train a dog to sheep you would use an e collar or for obedience, having worked with my dogs on sheep & other livestock I have never found the need to use anything other than a sheep pen & the dogs natural instinct to herd & for obedience as I do ALL my training offlead(& I have trained dogs & worked them in the ticket classes(the highest class in obedience)I have used motivation & reward.

Can you explain why using an e collar would be better would it get quicker & better results ? I would like to know how an e collar could be used to give a dog guidance when flanking sheep & on the out run & lift(especially as these could be over half a mile away), can it be used to train a dog to drive sheep towards the handler ? I await your reply with your experience of using the E collar for training of this type

BTW I have trained with the Metropolitan Police at Kesten & trained dogs for UK WT & Schutzhund & I had one of the first S & R dogs in the UK that was not a police dog & she was a BC trained to work sheep & the area our S&R covered included some of the highest levels of sheep & cattle in the UK & no my dog never even thought of going into sheep work mode unless told to

Hi Sprout,
You have been given non factual information by someone here. There is to be no legislation of ANY kind as regards static stim collars, no ban, no licensing, nothing.

The government told those who asked for legislation to give any evidence they had. Those trying to find something found absolutely nothing whatsoever which stood up when examined over the TEN-year period they tried to find something. No other training aid or training system has passed with such an unblemished result under such scrutiny, ever.

Sprout, modern static e-training collars are the fastest growing most popular training aid in history here in UK - within this past two years around a quarter of a million have sold in the UK, the totally accurate figures are not known because of imports. All collars have a 28 day full refund policy.

In the UK sales of static collars out sell the spray collars, the Master Plus, by a massive 50-1, spray collars are being returned to retailers and back to the UK sole distributor by the bucket load, they have a very poor success record and my information is that The Master Plus is being taken off the market, the sole UK distributor is 'The Company of Animals'.

Sprout, so you are not mislead by another poster, the governments official policy is at the government link below. So that you understand it:

Heres how to read and understand it.
The government paper at the government link below is the governments response to a select committee recommendation on secondary legislation, which the committee submitted to the government last Dec 1st.

The committee recommended licensing last Dec 1st 2004.
In the paper at the link below the committees recommendation of last Dec is above the governments response which was made public on March 1st this year, just over a month ago.

Hence:
1.above the repeat of the committees recommendation of Dec 1st 2004.
2. below i the governments response of March 1st 2005.

I have no idea why anyone should ,islead you and state they are going to be banned when all that was finished long ago, last July in fact. Licensing attempts were thrown out officialy just over a month ago and were signed by The Secretary of State, The Secretary of State does not post on here.

Scroll to recommendation 80 at the link below:
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmenvfru/385/385.pdf

I would suggest you go and watch a training class where e-collars are in use, there's plenty around and I know one near Crawley, they guarantee a recall within the hour, fee £45.

If you want to go and see a class for yourself just email me privately, my email is: davedee@postmaster.co.uk

In the meantime Lou Castle is a top expert, he is highly respected here in UK and around the world, what he says are facts, not seond and third hand vageries

moonmaiden - I think the term e-collars is too general and could mean many different types of collars moonmaiden.

E- TRAINING collars have one 'range' of levels, the one range is split into levels on the click dial type and constantly adjustable on the linear type, I have 100 levels, which means I have a VERY wide range split into hundredths in linear, I can change levels instantly up or down and without  looking at the transmitter.
Not all collars have those abilities and I call those limited use collars.

You use e-trainers as:
A positive punisher.
A negative reinforcer
A positive reinforcer
A negative punisher.

If you want to you can use them specifically as a reward stimulus. You don't use them 'to train dogs' you use them as a training aid with whatever training aids you want to use.

"Can you explain why using an e collar would be better would it get quicker & better results ?"

Because of 100% constancy, say as a negative reinforcer, at any distance, speed of dog etc up to 2 miles.
Because a 100% consistent negative reinforcer gives a positive reinforcement instantly the dog responds and as you know, positive reinforcers increase behaviours when they are consistent.

All that gives you the opportunity to shape wanted behaviours whilst maintaining the dogs faculties and quality of mind instead of correcting unwanted behaviours, which is what crops up on these boards everytime.

I almost forgot, yes you can use them with herding, farmers use them and the NFU supported them in their consultation and paper to DEFRA in 2002.

My email above was incorrect sprout, it's: davedee@zipido.com

What a load of old coswallop the only thing the NFU supported their use was to stop dogs chasing & causing the death of livestock not for training of sheepdogs. BTW the ISDS has more influence over the training of sheepdogs than the NFU has & as a member I know they have big concerns over their use even for stopping stock chasing dogs

You as I expected did not answer any of my questions directly, if E collars are so wonderful why don't all the top sheepdog triallist use them ?

As for your "friend"Lou should know the Police in the UK have banned the use of E collars as have the Forces training centre. And as for being used for trainining the SARDA dogs in the UK that is another load of codswallop. They are not used in the training of Schutzhund dogs in the UK either

They are a quick fix for people who have no respect or true knowledge of dogs & who are in it simply for a quick turnround & money making venture in modifying dogs behaviour

The only good thing that I can see about this thread is that John has posted again!

Margot

Yes Margot but dont forget Tohme as well. :D

I missed that one - welcome back Tohme!!!!

Margot

Dennis (why not just use your real name? most of us know who you are after all).

I have spoken with a rep from The Company of Animals and they are NOT withdrawing the MasterPlus. Please get your information correct. A new MasterPlus is coming onto the market, that's all.

I would also advise anyone readiing your posts to take them with a very large pinch of salt.

In the past you have intimated you have had considerable influence with DEFRA and the Animal Welfare Bill - in fact this is not the case as I enquired about this with DEFRA.

Not to mention being dropped like a hot cake from Dogtra, and pretending to BE YOUR OWN CLIENT (LOL) to get support for the electric collar.

Lindsay

The best remote training device is a whistle.

I find it works extremely well once the dog is trained to it.

You can use it to stop a dog, recall it, move it left or right.

It works extremely well over long distances and in the wind, especially a sheepdog whistle.

They are very cheap circa £1 at most, easily available and do not require any source of power other than that of your own lungs.

Obviously with this remote training device one must invest a great deal of time and effort, as with most things, to get the results you require.

Shepherds have been using them for years, so have gundog owners and those who participate in Mondioring and Working Trials etc on even "high drive" dogs in pursuit of sheep, game and criminals. :D

HTH

Moonmaiden wrote:  I note on your site you state that the e collar is the best tool for most dogs  So not just dogs with problems re chasing stock etc but just ordinary training of dogs, which would mean that if you were to train a dog to sheep you would use an e collar or for obedience

LC:  As you say, I use the Ecollar for just about every dog that I've trained.  I've never done any work with a dog involved in working sheep but I know that most of it is done instinctually with most of the work being done by the dog's "genes."  I might use the Ecollar in that case to teach the dog to recall on command, outside of the stock work, but I probably wouldn't use it for the stock work itself. 

Moonmaiden wrote:  Can you explain why using an e collar would be better would it get quicker & better results ?

LC:  I doubt that it would, unless you wanted to use a dog that didn't do it instinctively.  I doubt that if you were competing you'd get very far with that dog.  I know that in the US, for the most part, people who compete in the gun dog sports are also using dogs that have bred for decades to do just one thing, hunt for birds.  It's almost unheard of for a winner in any championship competition NOT to have added to his dog's training with an Ecollar.  I'll ask on some lists I'm on about people who use the Ecollar with herding dogs. 

Davedee wrote:  Lou Castle is a top expert, he is highly respected here in UK and around the world, what he says are facts, not seond and third hand vageries 

LC:  Thanks for the kind words Davedee but I've never been comfortable being called an "expert."  An expert is a guy from out of town with a PowerPoint presentation.  LOL. 

tohme wrote:  The best remote training device is a whistle. 

LC:  I don't think of a whistle as a training device.  I consider it a "cueing device" just like a voice, except that it carries better, is louder and doesn't take much energy to make it heard.  What happens if you blow the whistle and the dog doesn't respond? 

tohme wrote:  You can use it to stop a dog, recall it, move it left or right. 

LC:  What do you do if the dog starts chasing game or doesn't recall? 

tohme wrote:  Obviously with this remote training device one must invest a great deal of time and effort, as with most things, to get the results you require.

LC:  How do you get the dog to respond to the whistle and what do you do if he doesn't comply? 

So your voice is not a training tool then? :shock:  Good heavens, I consider that there are a lot of tools in my box , voice, hands, toys, food, other dogs, people etc etc etc and I use them as and when required.

A collar can be seen as a "cuing" device; when it comes out of its box the dog knows that this is the cue for some punishment!

I wonder how people trained their dogs before the advent of technology?

What happens if my dog does not respond to my whistle?

I generally pick up a newspaper, roll it up tightly, and then beat myself over the head with it for being an inadequate trainer.

What happens if my dog starts to chase or does not recall?

See answer to first question.

How do I get the dog to respond to a whistle?

Dog training just requires making it simple for the dog to get it right and the provision of sufficient reward.

Therefore I condition my dogs to respond to the whistle using food from day 1.

What do I do if the dog does not comply?

Hopefully I do not "test" my dog, but train it in incremental steps so that situation does not arise.

The use of an e-collar to obtain results is indicative of a handler/owner a) being "over dogged", b) having inadequate skills/knowledge c) having a view that the end justifies the means.

Lou, the one thing I find amazing about all your posts is that they are all the same,  no matter who you are talking to.

I don't even bother reading your posts anymore.
The fact that you support an American site that condones actual STRANGULATION of dogs in training, and sell collars specifically made to ensure dogs PASS OUT, is enough to show me you you don't truly have canine welfare at heart.

I smile when I remember that you just could not believe I got my dog to do a distance Sit whilst running after a squirrrel with NO AVERSIVES at all - proves that your method of training doesn't allow you to comprehend it's even possible. You wouldn't know how to achieve that, would you?  :D

Dennis was caught out on his (mis) understanding of learning theory - I suspect you would be the same.Lindsay

...it's the dripping water on a stone theory of educating, Lindsey! ;)

Margot

Certainly is, Margot! :D

Lindsay
x

tohme wrote:  So your voice is not a training tool then? :shock:  Good heavens, I consider that there are a lot of tools in my box , voice, hands, toys, food, other dogs, people etc etc etc and I use them as and when required.

LC:  This is just a semantic difference and I'd really rather not argue semantics.  There's no future in it. 

Tohme wrote: A collar can be seen as a "cuing" device; when it comes out of its box the dog knows that this is the cue for some punishment!

LC:  If that was true then dogs would be afraid of Ecollars.  But they're not.  When my dogs and those of my clients hear the distinctive tinkle that it makes, they come running.  It's a shame that you only know of the tool as a punishment device, that's just one way of using it.  I'll suggest that you investigate Ecollars a bit more.  They're not only a punishment device. 

Tohme wrote: I wonder how people trained their dogs before the advent of technology?

LC:  People trained dogs for thousands of years before Ecollars came along.  There are dozens, if not hundreds of tools available.  But the Ecollar is here now and I see no reason that it shouldn't be included to help get dogs trained. 

Tohme wrote: What happens if my dog does not respond to my whistle?  I generally pick up a newspaper, roll it up tightly, and then beat myself over the head with it for being an inadequate trainer. 

LC:  Cute response but hardly responsive to my question. 

Tohme wrote: How do I get the dog to respond to a whistle?  Dog training just requires making it simple for the dog to get it right and the provision of sufficient reward.  Therefore I condition my dogs to respond to the whistle using food from day 1.

LC:  This is quite vague.  I wonder if you could be more specific?  I was looking for more of a "how to" response. 

Tohme wrote: What do I do if the dog does not comply? Hopefully I do not "test" my dog, but train it in incremental steps so that situation does not arise. 

LC:  Everyone should be training in incremental steps but no one's training is perfect.  My question is what happens when, in spite of your incremental training, it DOES occur? 

Tohme wrote:  The use of an e-collar to obtain results is indicative of a handler/owner a) being "over dogged", b) having inadequate skills/knowledge c) having a view that the end justifies the means. 

LC:  Such a statement is indicative of a) a of lack of knowledge of how to use the tool and b) a willingness to be rude.  Since you don't know me and have never seen my training you don't have any idea if I've ever been "overdogged" (I haven't) how adequate my skill or knowledge is (I'll match it to anyone's) or whether or not I think the end justifies the means (I don't).  I'll request that you be a bit more polite in your communication.  There's no reason that this conversation can't be conducted civilly. 

Lindsay wrote:  Lou, the one thing I find amazing about all your posts is that they are all the same,  no matter who you are talking to.

LC:  When people make the same arguments, my responses will pretty much be the same. 

Lindsay wrote: I don't even bother reading your posts anymore.

LC:  Then how do you know that they're the same?  LOL.  In any case whether or not you read my posts doesn't affect me in the slightest. 

Lindsay wrote: The fact that you support an American site

LC:  I have no idea of what you're talking about and it appears, neither do you.  I only support one site, my own. 

Lindsay wrote: that condones actual STRANGULATION of dogs in training, and sell collars specifically made to ensure dogs PASS OUT

LC:  Again, I have no idea what you're talking about.  I know of no website that "condones actual strangulation."  To my knowledge there is no collar "made to ensure dogs pass out." 

Lindsay wrote:  I smile when I remember that you just could not believe I got my dog to do a distance Sit whilst running after a squirrrel with NO AVERSIVES at all - proves that your method of training doesn't allow you to comprehend it's even possible. You wouldn't know how to achieve that, would you? 

LC:  Sorry Lindsay I don't recall such a conversation.  In any case why don't you tell us just how you got this done?  I'm willing to bet that you used aversives.  Let's start by having you define an aversive.  OK? 

Lindsay wrote:  Dennis was caught out on his (mis) understanding of learning theory

LC:  I haven't seen anyone named Dennis in this conversation. 

Lindsay wrote: I suspect you would be the same. 

LC:  Instead of casting aspersions, why don't you just give it a try? 

Lou, you know exactly the site i am talking about, and the collars i talk about are not check chains - they are special training collars sold for the express purpose of strangling a dog. You have in the past defended this site, so please dont feign ignorance.

I dont have to read what you write - I just skim down and see the same old, same old.

And please don't let's start on the old "you tell me what you define as an aversive, and I'll tell you all about it" game. 

We all know there is the scientific (learning theory) understanding of aversive such as hot sun on a dog's back whilst it is doing a down stay, and we all know you will try to catch me out etc. I'm not interested in playing with you, sorry. I know what it'll lead to - more pedantic, long, huge posts that take forever to reply to.... I have much better things to do than reward you with replying, constant replays, etc. Besides, we have already had this exact discussion on another site.

Lindsay

Hi avant/jojo/denis/whatever. Did you finally train Max?

It was interesting that when the US gundog team, mostly trained using Electric Collars, finally came to the UK to take part in a series of Gundog Working Tests they were beaten out of sight, not only by the English team but by most of Europe! We dont need Electric Collars, training tables, forced fetch and the like.

A whistle is not something you train the dog 'with', you train the dog to the action, usually "come", and condition the whistle sound as a reinforcer. They are a primary reinforcer although the actual whistling sound is learned, so, in academic theory, the sound is a secondary positive reinforcer. Most people introduce a whistle sometime after obedience training.

Once the dog understands the action you want, commonly recall, you just run backwards, when the dog is close first of all, shouting "come", the instant the dog turns to come to you you blow the whistle immediately after the word "come" has ended, when the dog gets to you make a big fuss first and keep on SOFTLY blowing the whistle, give a treat or game (preferably a game) after the initial BIG TIME fussing, I end up with a piece of denim which my dog gets as a secondary reinforcer some times/occasionally after initial training, NOT every time..

It takes about 3 repetitions and then you can blow the whistle first, shout come as the dog turns after and then blow the whistle recall with "come" as before, soon enough, usually between 3 to 6 repetitions, the dog will come to the whistle alone, gradually increase distances, it takes very little time at all if the dog understands UNAMBIGOUSLY the "come" command.

The Shepherds whistle is, as someone said, a really great whistle, you can make all kinds of different frequency changes and numbers of whistles and use them for many commands. The downside is the Shepherds whistles are VERY difficult to play and I cannot use them at all, but, if you can they are a great tool.

No one who wants to use a whistle should even think about some cheap £1 whistle, the frequencies are inconstant and can confuse the dog, they are prone to holding moister and changing the frequency and it as the frequency which MUST be consistent, not 'a whistle'. If you loose one you can replace a technically high quality whistle and maintain exactly the same sound as the one you lost, with some cheap one you cannot and may well find yourself starting again.

If your dog has short ranges one of Acme's dog whistles are very, very good, the failing on the pealess Acme whistles is that they blow out VERY easily, I tried the Tornado and found that major fault. I do not know about the Acme dog whistles as they are pea whistles. If your dog is running at ranges much over ¼ mile your best bet is a Fox40 they do not blow out and they are the loudest, louder than the Acme Tornado and technologically better and with those you can be upwind and still get through to the dog, they broadcast on about 360Mhz. I don't recommend the Acme silent dog whistle although there are MANY very satisfied users.

My Fox40 has many benefits but it is the most dangerous training aid I have, if your dogs out of site and suspected of chasing in wind you should NEVER use them, the dog is highly unlikely to get the direction correct and if its down wind of the whistle and you don't know, that whistle can carry a couple of miles, a dog can travel half a mile in a couple of minuets, if that's in the wrong direction your dog is in deep trouble. NEVER use a whistle in woodland if you cannot see the dog, the sound waves bounce around all over the place off trees and he/she will head of in any direction.

For dogs prone to running into woodland the safest thing is to train the dog to go down instantly and use a tracker with them all the time. The best sound for signalling the down in woodland is the tone on an e-collar, the same applies to dogs prone to use a long range and go out of sight, once they are commanded down you use the tracker to get them but whatever whistle you use use them with extreme care.

The Acme and Fox whistle sites are below:
http://www.fox40whistles.co.uk/index.shtml
http://www.acmewhistles.co.uk/xcart/customer/home.php

Deleted

LC:  Instead of casting aspersions, why don't you just give it a try? 

Me - I would rather stick needles in my eyes!

I notice that either you or your alter-ego say that the collars you advocate can also be used on farming stock - might I respectfully suggest that there is a whole shed-load of difference, weight-wife, between a bullock and even a large (ie German Shepherd) dog???

You also say tht you have used what you so euphemistically call the "stim" on yourself - might I enquire what you weigh??

To equate such a collar with the pain-deadening TENS machine is just so completely spin!!

Those
Who
Advocate
Dogs
Deserve
Leash
Electrification

are Inhumane!

Margot

Sprout,
I am sorry I digressed on to whistles but they are a very good tool, used with caution, and well worth a post, I used them in conjunction with a static as do many shepherds and other users, same as treats and clickers etc. I will give you plenty info on the spray systems later this evening when I have time as I have not said much about them yet, you will be better informed on both systems than before your posting.

Re whistles - as far as i know, Tohme has a working trial tracker dog champion weimaraner - i think she knows how whistles work and what to use, etc. from experience.

John, interesting about the US gundog team being beaten like that :D

Lindsay

Lindsay wrote: you know exactly the site i am talking about, and the collars i talk about are not check chains - they are special training collars sold for the express purpose of strangling a dog. You have in the past defended this site, so please dont feign ignorance.

LC:  As I said, I only support one website, mine.  I have no idea what site you're talking about and again, as I said I don't know of any "special training collars sold for the express purpose of strangling a dog."  If you're just going to repeat what you've said after I said that I don't know what you're talking about, you're just wasting our time. 

Lindsay wrote: And please don't let's start on the old "you tell me what you define as an aversive, and I'll tell you all about it" game. 

LC:  You're the one who made the statement that you could train a dog to sit in the presence of a squirrel, with "NO AVERSIVES at all (emphasis original).  I know that this is impossible unless you're using some definition of "aversive" that isn't generally accepted and so I asked you to define what you meant when you used the word. 

Lindsay wrote: we all know you will try to catch me out

LC:  Lindsay I'm not the one who made the statement; you are. 

Lindsay wrote:  I'm not interested in playing with you

LC:  Of course not and I understand why.  It's very easy to pop in tell us that you've done something and then not be "interested," or not have "the time" or "the desire" to tell us how you've done what you've claimed.  It's much harder to have it examined and critiqued; particularly after making the "no aversives" statement. 

Lindsay wrote: Besides, we have already had this exact discussion on another site.

LC:  Perhaps but I don't recall it.  As you've pointed out, I've had these same conversations on many sites.  But if you don't want to take part in this conversation, that's fine by me. 

John wrote:  Hi avant/jojo/denis/whatever. Did you finally train Max?

LC:  Is this supposed to be addressed at me?  I don't know who any of the people you mention are and I don't have a dog named Max.  But didn't a moderator ask people to stop bringing up the name Dennis? 

John wrote:  It was interesting that when the US gundog team, mostly trained using Electric Collars, finally came to the UK to take part in a series of Gundog Working Tests they were beaten out of sight, not only by the English team but by most of Europe!

LC:  I'm not familiar with this competition but I will say that gundog work is significantly different in the UK than in the US.  I'll suggest the reverse would happen if you folks came here and tried to compete under our rules. 

John wrote:  We dont need Electric Collars, training tables, forced fetch and the like. 

LC:  I've already written that no one "needs" an Ecollar.  I haven't seen "training tables, the forced fetch and the like" mentioned anywhere else in this thread.  Could we please stick to the topic, "Training collars?" 

Earlier I wrote:  Instead of casting aspersions, why don't you just give it a try? 

Lokis mum wrote: I would rather stick needles in my eyes!

LC:  Fine by me.  But if all you're going to do is make rude, sarcastic comments, you're pretty much wasting our time. 

Lokis mum wrote: I notice that either you or your alter-ego say that the collars you advocate can also be used on farming stock

LC:  Who is this alter ego you mention?  It's just me here.  In any case, Ecollars have also been successfully used on horses.  I don't work with them so I won't discuss that. 

Lokis mum wrote: You also say tht you have used what you so euphemistically call the "stim" on yourself - might I enquire what you weigh??

LC:  I'm 235 pounds.  But what has that to do with a discussion of training collars? 

Lokis mum wrote: To equate such a collar with the pain-deadening TENS machine is just so completely spin!!

LC:  Interesting that you call it a "pain-deadening" device.  Isabel said that her experience was anything but!  As I said, people will have to draw their own conclusions.  Spin?  Hardly.  I didn't even broach the topic, Isabel did.  Actually it's an excellent analogy.  When turned down low both devices, the TENS and the Ecollar can barely be felt.  When turned up high, both HURT.  I work at the lowest level that the dog can feel. 

Lokis mum wrote: Those Who  Advocate  Dogs  Deserve  Leash  Electrification  are Inhumane!

LC:  Pretty rude, but I'll consider the source and the lack of knowledge about other ways that the tool can be used.  It's been my experience that those who oppose the tool will get rude in these conversations.  That has the effect of bringing moderators down and then they close the topic.  I think that's often at the root of such comments, to stop education on the topic. 

Sorry Lou, as i said, you and i have already debated all of this before, and I'm still smiling about my dog Sitting on command as she ran after a squirrel. I used toys to train and  any critic would be hard pressed to discover an aversive. Unless we are talking about the weather, mud, etc.

OP, I have PM'd you :)

Lindsay
X

John:  Hi avant/jojo/denis/whatever. Did you finally train Max?

LC wrote:  Is this supposed to be addressed at me?

Did I intimate that LC? I don't see it anywhere in my post. Or is Lou Castle yet another alias?

Question for you. Why do the exponents of Electric collars always use the term E-collar when discussing? Is it to make them sound more respectable?

Lindsay wrote: I used toys to train and  any critic would be hard pressed to discover an aversive.

LC:  Looks as if you're already waffling on the "no aversives" comment, just as I expected.  Before there was a denial that you used any, now you're saying that they'd be hard to find.  Next you might admit the truth, you did use aversives.  LOL. 

Earlier I wrote to John: Is this supposed to be addressed at me?

John wrote: Did I intimate that LC? I don't see it anywhere in my post.

LC:  Since you oppose Ecollars and your post came right after mine (as one who favors them) I asked if you were addressing me.  It's a simple question.  Is there some reason that you answered in this fashion? 

John wrote:  Or is Lou Castle yet another alias?

LC:  Same name I've always used.  Why would I use an alias? 

John wrote: Question for you. Why do the exponents of Electric collars always use the term E-collar when discussing?

LC:  You can't accurately say that those who favor the use of Ecollars "always" use that term.  I usually use that term and it's done as a shorthand.  Many call them remote trainers.  Some call them shock collars.  I know some who use the initials "EC." 

John wrote:  Is it to make them sound more respectable? 

LC:  I don't think it makes them sound more respectable but apparently some do. 

LC wrote:  I don't think it makes them sound more respectable but apparently some do.

I take it from that then that You DONT think them respectable! Now that IS a revalation!

No revelation John, you've misinterpreted what I wrote.  I said that I didn't think that using the term "Ecollar" makes the tool sound more respectable.  I didn't say that the tool was not respectable.  It's an inanimate object.  It's completely neutral.  It's how it's used that determines if it's used in a respectable fashion or not. 

But you still haven't answered why you asked if I was using an alias.  

John wrote:  Hi avant/jojo/denis/whatever. Did you finally train Max?

LC wrote:  Is this supposed to be addressed at me?

John wrote: Did I intimate that LC? I don't see it anywhere in my post. Or is Lou Castle yet another alias?

If you dont use the names avant/jojo/denis then the second part of the question is already answered is it not?

John wrote: If you dont use the names avant/jojo/denis then the second part of the question is already answered is it not?

LC:  No it's not because you asked, "Or is Lou Castle yet another alias?"  It's really a simple question John, why would you ask if I was using an alias?  And why are you now being so evasive?