Hi everyone, my name is Jo and this is my first post :-) Based on knowing a wonderful lab for 12 years and the time now being right (daughter growing up and work part-time from home) we have decided to have a chocolate lab puppy.  We have talked about it for over 6 months now, researched it thoroughly and feel very prepared.  On talking to one breeder (who to the best of my knowledge is reputable) I was given the number of another breeder with a pregnant bitch who had been mated with her stud dog.  I talked to the breeder at length who then suggested we visit and meet the pregnant bitch so that we could see her setup and she could then check we were ok.  This we did and everything went really well and we are due to go back and visit when the puppies are born.  Now my concern comes actually from an old thread on here about the chocolate gene pool.  During a discussion regarding breeding chocolates, it was roughly stated that because it is easy to get a complete choc litter by putting chocolate with chocolate, reputable breeders don't do this and would rather use a black dog carrying the chocolate gene. I understand about puppy farmers and the damage they do, but the two breeders I have found are putting chocolate with chocolate and now I am concerned.  They really were both up front and gave me loads of information and vetted me thoroughly so i was convinced they were genuine.  Grateful for any advice and I hope i make sense.

Thanks, Jo

I would be inclined to ask a little more about the basis for choosing the two dogs they have used and see how it squares up for you.  One or both of them may have a great deal of black in the background.  I mated my Orange Roan Cocker to another Orange Roan which many would regard as a no no in case of loss of pigment but because I had a yearning for this dog :) and everything else squared up and my cocker was from a line of at least four generations of entirely blue roan and had excellent pigment herself I decided to chance it and indeed the puppies were all very well pigmented.  So in summery I would say it depends on all other factors.  I presume they have satisfactory results from their health tests and you are happy with their temperaments.

Hi and thanks for replying.  Yes, I was very happy with all the info on them.  I have not met the dog but have been told hip and elbow scores and clear eye cert and seen pictures.  I was shown the bitch's certificates when I was there.  I will definitely phone both breeders and check if they have black in their background.  I am assuming then, if they have, that it is ok to breed chocolate with chocolate in this instance?

I am not sure how much is required in Labradors to maintain colour, I was using my cocker as an example really, perhaps someone in Labs will be along soon.  I suppose I would not like it if all four grandparents were chocolate but I would probably be happy if all four were black but what about inbetween I'm not sure :)
I suppose at the end of the day all you are likely to face, if all the health and temperament issues are in order, is perhaps a more washed out choccy that you were hoping for so it depends how much an issue that is for you :)

Thanks for your advice.  I do love the colour but that is not the only reason we want one so the depth of colour is not really an issue.  Temperament is more important and it was the case that we wanted a lab but which colour? We had to choose one so it was chocolate, but I do not want to encourage irresponsible breeding so I just need to know if these breeders are doing something seriously wrong or, like you say, whether it just dilutes the colour a little.

The problem with a long line of chocolate to chocolate matings is that the pigment becomes diluted.
They can have very pale (yellow) eyes and poor pigment on their noses and rims of their eyes (pink instead of chocolate) these are not desirable traits. Their coats can become lighter than the rich deep chocolate colour desired. It is better to add black in every second generation or so to keep the colour true.

Basically if the parents of both stud and dam are chocolate, or if one was a chocolate and one a black, I would not want a pup from that litter. If both sets of parents were black then you may be lucky and get a good pigmentation.

Hope this sounds clearer than it looks :)
Kay

No that's really clear thanks, but I must admit my heart sinks a little at reading it just because it has taken me quite a while to get to the stage I am at, finding a reputable breeder etc, and I totally take your advice on board that I should not have a puppy from that litter if the background isn't right.  I know this sounds stupid but do I question the breeder more and if the background isn't okay do I just tell her I don't want a puppy for that reason?  What I am trying to say is that I don't want to seem shallow and just dismissing a pup because its coat isn't quite right.  She would not take a deposit because she said this encouraged people to have a pup even if they changed their mind and she cares very deeply for her dogs. Sorry, I hope I am making sense but this talking while typing is not that easy is it!! :-)

Joell, dont be too despondant, I have sent you a PM, go to top of board and click on Messages to read it
Kay

Hi Kay, did you get my PM? Not sure if I pressed the right button and then it just disappeared off my screen.  I will get used to it I'm sure! 

Jo

Have replied Joel, with good news :)

I do not believe that colour dilution occurs by mating chocolate to chocolate, as long as both parents had good pigmentation, and would be interested if any studies could back up that claim.
The concern with breeding chocolate to chocolate is with regard to reducing the gene pool not diluting the colour. as long as black is somewhere not too far back in one or both sides then this isn't a concern either.
Dont be put off if all else is well with your breeder.
Amos

Amos I have seen the results of long line chocolate to chocolate. Even thought the coat may be a reasonable colour, I have seen pink noses, pink rimmed eyes, and the eye colour amber or yellow, even green has shown up occasionally.  Reputable breeders can breed choc to choc, they know the genetics of the generations of the stud or bitches they use. They have a reputation to maintain.  It is the not so reputable breeders or backyard breeders that are causing most of the problems in the breeding of chocolates. Jo has PM'd me and I know of the kennels she has approached and they are reputable with excellent lines and I know the stud being used. I breed Labs, yellow and black only. Although I have studied the genetics in chocolate I leave the breeding of chocolates to the experts.

Kay

Hi Jo,

it seems to me that you want the pup as a pet and are never going to show or breed from it am I right? In that case, if all else seems well and you are happy with the breeder, I would go for a pup, after all, they need homes somewhere, and you sound ideal.

Hi Husky, you're absolutely right and will be a very much loved and wanted pet. Kay's advice has totally put my mind at rest and when I spoke to the breeder in question this morning she has assured me chocolate to chocolate is fine (bit more info than that but this sums it up).

I just can't wait for it to arrive now - litter due in early April so will be back on here looking for info and asking questions in the very near future. 

Thanks everyone for being so friendly and taking the time to answer :-)

Jo

>Hi Jo,

it seems to me that you want the pup as a pet and are never going to show or breed from it am I right? In that case, if all else seems well and you are happy with the breeder, I would go for a pup, <

Husky,

The thing is even if it is for a pet only people should only buy from the best breeder based on knowledge and reputation etc .."

>after all, they need homes somewhere, and you sound ideal.<

Boy that is not the best statement to say you a puppy searcher.. juse because a puppy needs a home never means you should buy it.

There are hundreds of good labrador breeders, in a breed with huge registrations you will not have to settle for second best.

Reduced pigment in coat, nose, eyerims, iris can crop up in any brown dog.  I've seen it quite often where there has been a black pigmented parent.

To save typing again, my thoughts on this from a previous post -

"I know of no scientific data to support this and the belief that breeding brown x brown reduces pigment has no genetic basis.  A chocolate Lab is genotype bb whether its parents are both blacks (Bb x Bb) or both Choc (bb x bb).  You can't get any more chocolate than bb.

Breeds that mate brown to brown regularly include English Springer Spaniels..... and Irish Water Spaniels, which are all bb brown, the same as choc Labs.  They still have good pigment after countless generations.

The genes for pigment fading are totally separate and can be carried by any colour, you just don't see their effect in blacks and yellows because the dog needs to be choc to show them. 

I'm not advocating breeding choc to choc purely on the basis of colour but if you wanted to improve pigment this would be the way to do it.  By choosing well pigmented chocs you are reducing the chances of passing on the fading genes that could be carried by a black and expressed in its choc offspring."

Julie 

Thanks Julie and Amos, ditto my message above.  Grateful for your advice :-)

Glad to have been of some help Jo, PM me again if you need anything
Happy to Help if I can
Kay

Hope you get a lovely pup Jo, Choc labs are GORGEOUS!

good luck.... you in fora treat. they 1 crazieeeeeeeeee dog...

Hello Jo
I have read with amazement some of the replies that some of the people have sent you.  I have been breeding chocolate, black and yellow labs for 15 years under the tutelage of international show judges and have never come across any one saying that breeding choc to choc will dilute the colour.  Yes we do breed choc to black to strengthen the colour but I have equally seen chocs that are five generation pure choc that are dark coloured, dark eyes and very good pigment.  The main quality you should look for is that the breeder knows what they are doing and that all of the dogs are hip/eye tested.  The dogs being bred should also have some silmilarities and that when pups are produced they will not be detrimental to the breed standard.  The dogs should also ideally have a common link in their heritage.  Hope this helps.

I agree totally that the quality of the dogs must be the first consideration but you seem to condradict yourself on the dilution question :)  If dilution does not happen why to you breed to a black to "strengthen" the colour?  If you mean the dilution is not going to happen on the first mating but only after a line of such matings then I think that is what has been said in the other posts.

Very few top breeders have chocolates ( I am not saying all but FEW )

2 different top breeders told me in their experience they cannot get the quality from the chocolates. Both had tried and had to endorse and pet homed the lot.

Look in the show ring how many chocs do you see in % to others.

Also working wise I am told the the chocs are not preferred there ( again I stress not all as I know a few people who do have and love chocs) but % wise.

THe biggest problem we have is a lot ( not all)  choc breeders breeding for that fact alone the colour and that should never be the case.

If you read all the old books they all say never a choc to choc or choc to a yellow well the ones I have read.

breeding choc to choc is really not a problem regarding pigment its when you breed yellow to chocolate or have any yellow to chocolate breedings behind that you have problems ....when you see yellows with pink pigment you can be sure there is chocolate behind because it causes them to inhetit a gene that blocks the pigment

Ah yes.  There is a  good genetic reason for discouraging choc x yellow if pigment is an issue.  IF... the yellow happens to carry choc (Bb) you could produce some yellows with choc pigment (bb ee) ie they will have liver nose and eye rims etc.  These could also crop up in any Lab colour mating.

But in my experience, even black pigmented yellows (B_ ee) don't often have very good nose pigment when adult, often fades to flesh colour as do Golden Retrievers.

Julie

Blue,
What book is that then?
Amos

Book .... Let me see if I can dig something out..

BUT in the mean time lets look at it more sensible, moral,   and iteligent way..!!! ;-)

WHY would you want to breed choc to choc..??

Can you honestly say that the choc stud is better than any avaliable black Labrador stud? I could bet a £100 you could probably find a better quality Black stud so IF you can why would someone still use the choc stud??

I can't wait for the replies ;-))

I personally think that labs get the worst deal just now of all the breeds and it is about time people did something about it..

Yep the first selection criterai should be the best compatible complimentary, only if all else is equal, then should colour even enter into the equation.

If the quality of chocolate labs is poor compared to the blacks and yellows, teh the breeders who like the colour shoudlb e lookign at upgrading quality by using the best black studs to eventually get equally good chocolates.

But that means jumping off the bandwagon ...

"But that means jumping off the bandwagon ..." ah Jeangenie you hit the nail on the head. ;-)

Ethically breeders who's every step is in the best interest of the breed do not follow fashion or entertain bandwagons. ;-)

( I am being brave tonight eh? it just saddens me what is happening to such an outstanding breed)

<< WHY would you want to breed choc to choc..??  >>
To ensure the puppies were chocolate too :(  
I can't help feeling that the majority of chocolates being bred are being bred for the 'pet' market where they are currently so popular.  One of my personal bugbears at the moment is the number of people calling themselves 'chocolate labrador breeders' as opposed to 'labrador breeders' as if somehow they are a different breed.
I totally agree with you Blue. 

Shame they can't be called 'liver' like they were in the old days. I bet subconsciously people associate 'liver' with school dinner, veins etc (yuck!) but 'chocolate' with yummy sweets.

LOL Jeanjenie.. roll back the liver cake ;-)

I think there may be something in that, Jeangenie.  Chocolate sounds much more appealing than liver, even to me, who does like liver, as long as it comes with bacon and lots of gravy :D.  Labs though, I like them black :o  :D

Here we go again on this old debate.
The reason I ask what book is because I am fed up of people quoting heresay and one off experiences when it comes to the difference between chocolate labs and other labs. If you reckon you have read something then maybe ( doubt it though ) you anti chocolate lab folk might at last have some science to back up the clap trap and massive generalisations. so look forward to hearing it.
I have loved chocolate labs for 30 years why should I feel like appologising for liking them now because they have become popular.
You seem to forget also that many choc labs have two black parents or at least 2 black grandparents.
Amos

Believe me Amos when I can think which books I read it in I will post it.. dont worry..:-)  How dare you say you doubt it. If I said I have read it you can bet your life on it I have. A liar or generaliser I am not. ;-)  I have read loads of labrador books over the last few years but I don't personally own them.

In additon to that I have been told by 2 top breeders , they are not just excellent breeders but have been around a long long time , longer than I have been on the earth.. I know they know their stuff..

There is not one person on this board who are anti Choc labradors but what we are anti is the "lets make a buck out of choc labs"  and in the mean time distroy the breed by breed, breed, breeding for colour only.

You are not going to try and tell us that their is equal numbers ie 1/3 of the labradors in the show ring, the working kennels using chocolate labradors are you??  Believe me I wished there was... 

Real labrador lovers love all colours BUT can't stand that it is now so hard to get a decent chocolate because of what people have done to them...

A labrador lover could not deny this or say this is untrue.
Yes there are a few breeders doing their hardest to try and bring quality into their lines but there are hundreds and hundreds not..

Enough said by me.:-) 

Who's anti-chocolate? I don't know anyone here who's anti-chocolate labs. Just anti the people who breed purely for that colour, forgetting about the importance of the rest of the dog inside the skin. A good chocolate lab is as good as a good yellow or black. It's just that there seem to be proportionately far fewer of them. A shame.

I do find it odd that all the chocolate labs I've seen have been a different shape to the other two colours - they seem to be much more heavily built, with much chunkier heads. Maybe it's a local thing.

I'm no Lab expert but I have a good eye for a dog and certainly those Chocolate ones I've seen at open shows are noticably different in many ways from the other colours - as my breed is never scheduled on the same day at Champ shows I can't comment on those being shown at a higher level so am not intending to make a sweeping statement - merely relay a personal observation.

What you doing up at this time JG????  Is it a late night or early rise :P

Teri ;)

An attack of insomnia! :( I'm waiting for the Horlicks effect to kick in. How about you?

I live by insomnia - every once in a while I get an attack of sleepyness :rolleyes:   Horlicks is no use - can't stand anything milky unfortunately.  Have a highly impressive (or suspect if your a copper :D ) medicine cabinet with a cocktail of things supposedly guaranteed to get me nodding off - they're not working too well as you can see :(

However onwards and upwards, or rather off to plod across the hallway, as I'm due up and about for all things doggy in around 4 hours  (pup doesn't care for a weekend lie-in) - I'm just one of those people that as soon as my head hits the pillow my mind starts racing - annoying :(

Oh well, good luck with your milky drink.  Night night, probably/possibly/hopefully, Teri ;)

Lol @ the old Bill and the medicine chest! Night night - good luck!

Up at silly o'clock as per usual, off to Lab Champ Show today, I have my own opinions as a breeder but will report back later this afternoon :D :D :D 

Oh and if anyone is going to be at the Lab club of Scotland Champ show today,(Magnum Centre, Irivine) I will be there will Tia and Summer, come and speak :D

Wow Amos :o - who said anything about being anti-chocolate lab? 
You should not feel you have to apologise for loving chocolate labs any more than I should feel I have to apologise (which I don't) for loving all labs because they are by far the most popular dog on both sides of the Atlantic.
As has already been said, it's the poor breeding practices that people deplore, indeed, as a lover of chocolate labs (what's wrong with yellow or black?) surely you too would be against poor breeding practices?  The explosion in popularity of chocolate labs has led to disproportionate amount being bred for colour.
You don't have to be an expert to work out that continuously breeding chocolate to chocolate (what was until recently a real minority colour) will before long separate them from the rest of the Labrador gene pool.  Obviously there are good breeders out there too, but I fear there is a disproportionately large number breeding for colour. As from what you say, you appear to believe there is no difference between the colours, can you explain why so many chocolates cost £100 to £150 more than yellows and blacks.  Are they poorer whelpers incurring higher vet bills, do they have smaller litters?  Or is it simply that 'certain' breeders know they can get more for them because of their colour? 
I love all labs for many different reasons, colour comes pretty low down my list of reasons - as Jeangenie said, there is far more to a dog than the colour of its coat.

There are times when I really miss John's input.

Lets hope he reads this and can PM the OP.

I think kayc already has Jackyjat - the thread seems to be some weeks old so hopefully the OP has had her questions answered :)

I knew it was too early to post anything.  I hadnt realised this was a resurected post.  I have been in contact with Jo, and I know the of the breeder and the dogs involved, also parents, gparents etc. The breeder who Jo is seeking her pup from is one of the most respected breeders I know of.  I think this post should be laid to rest  :)
Kay

  KAYC
          This topic appears time and time again you only have to study the quartley publications from the KC to realise what damage the popularity with chocs is doing to the bread , people are registering 5 or 6 litters per quarter  all choc puppies every quarter usually with the same Stud Dog ,what his qualties to improve the breed are is very suspicious it is breeding purley for the  colour that will do long term damage , i have been owned by  Labs for 30 years
doing my best to buy good looking working dogs .

  Yorker