Hello there

I was just wondering if you could help me as you seem very helpful and knowledgable. I bought a dog about 2 years ago and he was advertised as pedigree but not kc reg. Since this was not really all that important to me and i bought him to be a new family member because he was cute i did not really ask questions about his pedigree. I did not pay lots of money for him so do not feel i was conned! and due to this assume hes probably not pedigree and obviously would have been more bothered and asked if i was paying pedigree prices with no proof!!! I love him to bits and i would have paid double for him even if they said he wasn't pedigree as hes such an adorable chap!
All i was wondering now is that with his innoculation book i was given a family tree for him written out by the lady i bought him from showing all his grandparents back 6 or 7 times. Since she could have written anything she really liked on this i assume this bears no weight to proving anything?????  All his grandparents (not parents) have kc registered type names but surely this doesn'y even prove that they are his real grandparents!??
If i buy another dog and want him to be pedigree what documents should i need to receive if hes not kc registered??
Also are there any blood tests that could be done to see if hes pedigree or to even tell what he would be crossed with if you couldn't tell by look??
Sorry for the essay, i would appreciate any advice that could be given to me on this subject.
          

Hi. A pedigree dog is merely one where his family tree is known, though it's come to mean one where all the ancestors were also of the same breed as each other - the same as purebred. The registration documents from the KC are the only ones with any guarantee about them - if a dog isn't KC registered there are no official documents available.

The only tests to prove ancestry existing are DNA tests, where samples are taken from the supposed sire and dam and compared with a sample from the puppy/dog. But there's no scientific way of determining if there's any other breed involved at all, let alone what it might be.

Hope this helps.
:)

Hi,

My daughter bought an unregistered springer spaniel, but he like your dog came witha pedigree and we did trace the names back from the grand-parents and great grand-parents as we did discover they were KC registered.
If you know what breed your dog is supposed to be you might be lucky and find an ancestor or two in the pedigree which are registered and know a little more about your dog.

Pedigress is a map of parents or famerly tree can be used on any animal it only shows a accont of wot is behind the animal.
With dogs A KC reg will garantee that the pedigree of the dog you buy is pure but you can get two breeds put them togather and write out there parents names on a pedigree form they have a pedigree but wont be pure!!!!

Actually, until we get compulsory DNA identity, or at least microchip/tattoo identity on every single registration form, the KC registration is only as good as the honesty of the breeder/stud dog owner.

Having said that, it's considerably more reliable than a hand written/typed 'pedigree' produced by any other supposed 'register'.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Have to agree there Jo.I have always thought that the type of breeder that has loads of dogs and works full time can not be there to supervise every dog that comes into heat (i hear a lot about silent seasons from reading about dogs)Do you think that if a bitch became pregnant and the breeder was unaware of it untill it was obvious(or not untill pups came)that they would just say that it was a certain dog in there kennels that sired the bitch or just sell the pups on as unreged?
not trying to cause an arguement but this is one thing i have always wondered

Well a very reputable breeder in my breed had two bitches have surprise singletone pups (mated when seasons appeared to ahve finished) and the sire turned out to be the same sneaky boy as she had them DNA tested.  For a serious breeder there is nothing to be gained and a lot lost from having inacurate pedigrees.  Only those who don't care what goes into the 'recipe' would do that.

Well that was a serious breeder/lover of dogs but i do think that maybe as the peeps on this board (visitors like i used to be)get told to go to breeders,some are not what you expect lots of dogs same breed ,full time job aswell.It does make me wonder how they have the time and the awareness of the dogs needs.they might see their dogs for a few hours of the day but are the dogs then classed as kennel dogs (ie breeding stock) or well socialized dogs?
I am genuinelly(sp)here to learn not to cause trouble.

Hi shedog,  whilst you are making a very good point, it all comes down to standards,  the advice usually given is for people to fnd GOOD breeders, but I know this can be hard.  However, mjust to clear up one point, ust becasuse a dog is a kennle dog does not mean it must be unsocialised.  Yes, puppy farm dogs kept in runs etc are usually lacking incontact, but many good breeders do have dogs in kennels andruns,  however they are well socialised as pups, and get loving and frequesnt daily contact, excercise etc.  This is hwy it is so hard to actually  highlight the way to find a good breeder, signals can be conflicted.
bye
Gwen

I'd also add ,Gwen, that a lot of the less good breeders know how to answer questions, know what to say regarding health tests, and it is getting more difficult for a first time buyer to tell the difference, even when armed with a list of things to look out for.

Well a person experienced in dogs would have to be pretty dense not to realise that a bitch is in season (except for bitchesw mating very late as in the example I gave, which is why I advise keeping a bitch away from males an extra week). 

No matter how many dogs you have they are unlikely all to be together when the breeder is not there, especially not more than one male with a bitch. 

In some breeds there would be no way two males would ever be left together anyway, and even in breeds wehere they get on leaving two males usupervised with bitches would be unwise as conflict can and does occur over girls when they are about to come in season or have recently been.

Accidents like I describe only tend to occur with an untypical season, where the bitches (not the dogs) were hgaving excersise with one of several males at different times.

In Medium to large breeds many small hobby breeders who do not have land and kennel facilities will only keep bitches (as I do) so it is obvious who the sire is.  If they have kennels then the dogs will be seperated or maybe with a bitch companion.

If the stud owner has more than one stud dog (increasingly rare) they have nothing to gain from substituting the wrong dog.  Most people in a breed can easily recognise the offspring of particular males.

Matings in most breeds are strictly supervised anyway so the breeder can ensure neither is injured and so they know when a litter is expected.

In puppy farms a male will usually be left with several bitches all the time, but the 'producer' will still be aware when they were in season so they can be seperated from the others to whelp.

The Kennel Club is tightening up on it's accredited breeder scheme, they are using DNA profilingas a method of identifying puppies bred from from Accredited Breeders stock. They sent out with Crufts entries a certificate to get a dog or bitch DNA profiled, it actually costs £15 normally.
Responsible breeders would not knowingly falsify a pedigree, as they would be breeding with the welfare of their chosen breed and their own line of dogs in mind.

I have never understood how this is supposed to work,a s it is the parents who are DNA profiled, (and you have to trust that the DNA supplied is for that particular dog, as the owner takes the sample). 

The pups are not DNA profiled before leaving so again could only be proven as the offspring of the said parents if there was a dispute, which is unlikely in 99% of puppy sales, as often the owners don't even know the dogs registration details having thrown the papers in a drawer.

I haven't joined this scheme as in order to comply with it's rules I would have to persuade the owner of any stud I wanted to use to have their dog tested also.

I also object to being charged to join a scheme whose standards are far lower than those I have bred by for years.  all my dogs are Microchipped and Tattooed.

In my view this Accredited Breeder scheme should be free to join by all breeders who Hip Score and Eye Test, and there should be reduced fees for rwegistraion (say £10 instead of £12 per puppy) and all the bitx and pieces in the wallet should be covered by the affix maintenance fee most breeders pay each year.

If the KC insist on accepting registrations from people whose dogs are not health tested then the charges should be higher than for those who do.

The KC are proposing to do random tests and random visits. So if a member breeder did falsify a pedigree they may find the dogs being DNA sampled as they do coat tests. Responsible breeders would have nothing to worry about.

This year they plan to tweak the scheme more and will be contacting breed clubs for their views and I suspect they will be asking those breeders who have already joined the scheme.

Sometimes you have to join these things if you want to have a say in how they are run. If I was a member of the scheme I'd be pretty annoyed if the KC asked everybody for their views but not mine, however as a non member I would be asking myself what right I had to express an opinion or help in tweaking the scheme if I was not a member.

Sometimes you have to join these things to improve them, even if it does cost you a little more, in the short term. It may well be that one of the things the KC will do is to charge accredited breeders less for registration, already they are giving advantages for members of the scheme on their puppy register.