hi. if any of you live in southport like me, and reading through our local paper which had a big front cover with a picture of a family from southport who had cross bred their labrador and poodle to make labradoodles.

the thing is, ive read a lot of things about how this is wrong etc and assumed it was wrong too. but the paper seemed to be saying how fantastic the dogs were and how they go for loads of money and how "many experienced breeders are now breeding labradoodles" etc. they gave loads of reasons why they make great pets. my point is, you guys say its wrong but the paper was saying how great it is.

i dont understand!

Do you really believe everything the papers say?
I know I don't and this is one such case...
When you cross 2 breeds of dogs you can never guarantee which genes the dog will inherit from which parent and so some will moult some won't,some will be more like a lab in temperament some like the poodle etc.
This x breed started as an experiment by the guide dogs for the blind...nut was abandoned because it was unsuccessful...people now just breed these x breeds and give them a 'designer' name in order to  charge inflated prices and not pay out the costs for health tests that breeeding a edigree hould incure.
Archer

i like them!!! its not wrong if the people who are breeding actually believe in their "mixbreed" & are not in it just to make money. yes of course some people will jump on any bandwagon to make money & there are lots of people in LDs just to make some dosh,but ivce met ALOT of people who love them ,as much as anyone loves any breed,who health check their stock & are not overpriced.

I just don't see teh point of them when you coul have true to type Curly Coated Retriever, Irish Water Spaniel, Lagotta or Spanish Water dog.  These 4 breeds alone give you size variation all gundogs with poodly coats.

yes,alot of people dont, which is fine dont get one. yet alot of people have fallen for them in a BIG way,why should these people be labelled puppy farmers for breeding or people who want one made out to be "dupped". its not right. everybody has a right to like whatever they like imo. & as ive met more than most,being very popular in my area,with a GREAT caring breeder locally,i feel like they are been labelled unfairly.
jmo,i know im in the minority on here. but if youd seen what ive seen then i dont think i would be.

And as long as they don't make false claims about them, such that they all have non-shedding coats etc. They don't.
:)

i dont thing the "good" ones do,do they? they reconisge all the different coat types & as they are this "mixbreeds"experts,if you like,they can advise on which of the litter will have what type of coat.

I don't see them contradicting the false claims made about this cross in all the magazine articles and other publicity about them though. :(

Why breed a cross delibetly?  There are too many dogs for people in this world, we will ALWAYS have crossbreeds from accidental matings, IMO crossbreeds have the chance of being anything and should be sold for a low price or nothing (the low price going to a dog charity) If we want to better the dog race we should leave the breeding to the breeders who research their dogs genes, pedigree and find the perfect match.  This is JMO but surely a poodle or a labrador will make a better, more reliable pet anyday then a labradoodle and possibly they will have less health problems, this will mean alot less vet fees, temprements that are normally good and good alround trusty dogs!

To the OP, experianced breeders "who are in it for the love not the money" are NOT breeding cross breeds HOWEVER experianced breeders (puppy farmers) are in it for the money and don't have any love for a dog!

JMO! :)

why NOT breed a X?
if you havent found the breed of your dreams & have fallen for a mixed breed, & want to dedicate your life to it? what is wrong with that?
there are so many dogs pedigree & Xs. it makes sod all difference to the dog if its a mixed breed or not. ASlong as its been bred by good breeders.

for instance Rox, there are loads of BCx aussie in obedience now. they are loved & been responsibly bred, & appeal to some people. what is wrong with that?

Before you get too emotionally involved in this debate, please remember that if anyone wanted to deliberately cause an arguement amongst this forum, then lab/poodles crosses would be high on the list. ;-)

We are having a healthy debate on what we think :) we just have two different opinions on crossbreeds and breeding crossbreeds! :)

:D @ Havoc  :D

Of course they could really go for broke and ask what food was recommended to feed their designer cross and what's best, vaccine or nosodes?

Running off now to make the coffee :P
Teri

you can fall in love with a cross yes, but when breeding them you have no-idea what they will turn out like etc. 

BC X aussies I will never understand, I will hate myself for admitting this but whats looks are different with a BCX aussie to a BC or and aussie?  The breeds are virtally identical to the untrained eye.  Do you not think we have enough breeds already?  I can't believe someone can't find a breed that apeals to them from the 100s already registerd and settled down with a breeding program where we know what we will get from a litter.

The only time I will think crossing is ok is to bring back a breed going exstinct, why? Because it was the only way to bring my faviouret breed back after beng exstinct nearly twice now, the crossing was done with a breed that wouldn't be here without them! :)

It might make SOD all to a dog BUT whats most commonly in rescue?  Cross or pedgiree?

thats why the labardoodle people are trying  to create a breedtype that breeds true though?so they do know what they are getting.

the aussieXbc thing? well i guess they are looking for a super stylish,thinking dog (aussie "think" more than collies) without hopefully the stubborn bit.

yes there are alot of breeds,but if in all that lot ,there wasnt one for me,then id be well up for abit of a "mix". luckily for me,i just love my BCs.

what about the queen & her dorgis?

Michelle the sad fact is the breeds I laready named that would fit into the niche that Labradoodles are trying for are numerically small and the two British ones are endangered, so these people wanting this type of dog woudl be far better using their energies helping to amintain and improve the breeds already in existence, the labradoodle is a retrograde step.  We all know that establishign a ehalthy viable breeding population is fraught with difficulty with inevitabley a lot of wastage SO WHY DO IT WHEN YOU COULD BE HELPING TO SAVE EXISTING BREEDS.

because we have free choice in this country, & its not doing anything wrong!!! is it because i dont show that i hold different views on this to the rest of you?

Don't th9nk so Michelle I think some of us accept that there are enough crossbreeds in need fo rescue to satisfy anyone wanting a unique pet, and that there are enough pedigree breeds that need maintaining without breeding first crosses adn trying to call them a breed.

there are enough xbreeds,!!!!!but i dont think there is anything wrong with purposely x-ing two breeds that compliment each other to fulfill a demand.& a love. people LOVE these dogs.
id also say there are enough pure breeds in rescue,but that dosent stop us breeding pure breeds.

people wanting a LD, arent wanting something unique, they want a LD.

Hi Michelle,

I can see exactly where you're coming from - years ago when GDB were in the newspapers with their Labradoodles many of the average dog loving population thought they were an exceptionally attractive *breed* and of course having been seen to be endorsed by such a hugely respected society that struck a chord too with others looking for a "different" looking dog.  There's nothing wrong with that reaction at all - it's perfectly human ;)  Visual appearance is what influences much of first impressions and so anyone attracted to this particular cross is quite simply that - attracted, ie. physically drawn too!  The fact that there are KC registered pedigree dogs of *similar* appearance won't matter and while I personally think there are far too many dogs bred to find *forever homes* for the genuine pet loving population, I can fully appreciate why this specific dog is (to an extent) in demand.

Regards Teri :)

we all know when we get that "wow" factor when we see "our" breed.
how would ypou feel if you fell for a mixed breed. dedicated your life to breeding them to a type that you love & then get told you are a puppy farmer.

I would think that IF the pups have been bred from parents with impeccable temperaments, health tested, and of sound construction (not necessarily show conformation). Also IF the pups have been well reared and socialised, then they would make significantly better pet prospects than the average randomly bred mongrel in the dogs home. Or indeed many poorly-bred pedigree pups.

I'm not sure this specific cross offers anything more than the two individual breeds, however most people dont want anything more from their pets than a good temperament, decent health and a modicum of trainability. What they do offer is a bit of individuality, which seems very important to many people.

they are also proving themselves in "activities" & picking up etc.
god! i havent even got one! i dont want one, & i have no intention of ever breeding one! but i do like them ;)

Surely ALOT of now established dog breeds started off as crosses? Even relatively new breeds like Eurasiers and Russian Black Terriers, surely these were x-breeds not that long ago. I see the problem if people haven't got a clue what they are doing but surely there are some breeders that are trying to maintain a type in this "breed"?

Sarah

there are,like the lady in the next village,who is experinced in "pedigree" breeds too. but seems to haven fallen for the LD...just abit. she organises fundays & get togethers ,for all LDs(not just her breeding) & ive done the photos...she DOES have "type" defintally!
m

If they are hip scored, elbow tested and have eye tests then brilliant as these are all tests that are carried out for the two breeds.

The thing that annoys me about this breed is that most people say that they are good for people with allergies and this is untrue.  Most people are allergic to the dander and not the coat as the GDB found out.  They can also not guarantee the coat being like the Poodle's.  Why don't they just sell Poodles and not have the fancy clip, then they'd look the same?  Poodles are a very intelligent breed and I'm sure could do the things that this x does.

Good luck to the person who is breeding true to type, but I'm sure that this is not possible yet as they will have to have a good few more years before this is possible.  Even in my breed we get the odd one that's quite big and not true to type and they've been going for centuries.

exceptions of course,but in all breeds & lines that is true.
her dogs are instantly recongisable as LDs,which is alot more than can be said about some of the spaniels etc around here.
she does health test,of cousre as she is interested in the health of her "mixed breed".

i guess some people want a "heavier" scruffier type of dog than a poodle

Don't forget theres a skin condition or something in poodles that needs to be tested for when breeding labradoodles!

So people are breeding BCXaussies so they can roll in the glorey of winning? DISGUSTING!  I like the lady who has done well at obedience with BC's for years now, but she wanted to do obedience with a different breed and have a challenge and have fun, not to win, she choose a red and white setter!  Now I'll tell you know they are not ment for obedience but this lady is very brave and has the right idea about her sport.  She will do something different, she knows she won't have a ob ch like she could get with a BC.  all I say is good luck to her!

did i say that?
you dont get much glory in obedience i can tell you,its bloody hard most of the time. & if you can get a "up for it" "trainable" stylish dog then that is all the better,after all you have to enjoy it as out of a cl;ass of 60 there is only 1 winner. not much glory for the other 59 is there?
actually if you are talking about the lady who works a red & white from wales,who also has a L.M, then youll proabley also know that she has just breed a litter of collie beardie xs for obedience.

Rox im not sure why for the last two days youve just taken EVERYthing anyone has said the wrong way? but get over it. learn to read what people are saying & stop putting words in peoples mouths.

<<<<<<the aussieXbc thing? well i guess they are looking for a super stylish,thinking dog (aussie "think" more than collies) without hopefully the stubborn bit.>>>>>>

So they want a dog thats better to work!  Therefore more chance of winning out of the class of 60.... You said it, not me!

for crying out loud! where in that sentance did i mention winning?
what do you think is more fun,working & training a keen dog or a steady one. most people would prefer a keen one,that can work with natural style. didnt say nothing about winning.
obedience is actually about accuracy,thats what you MUST have to win.

so actuually no i didnt say that,grow up.

Michelled

all hormones at that age!!! :D :D

blondiflops-remeber that "difficult" age well ;)

All those many moons ago!!! arh....the memorys.....the rows.....sheer teenage heaven!

BUt a keen dog with natural style will always do better then a laid back one, I've been there, couldn't compeat with my bitch becuase she was so laid back.  You want a stylish, keen dog becuase THATS WHAT WINS!

actually that is not correct, a stylish dog will look better,but will make more mistakes than a steady dog.
i think if you look at the crufts coverage of the obedience youll see many many many examples of this. you clearly dont know what you are talking about, you are trying to appear knowledgable & failing,
you WANT a stylish dog, because they are more fun  to train & work.

Why bother compeating then?

because obedience is MORE than just about winning. its about training your dog to do its best & creating a partnership. & about meeting likeminded people & talking about dogs all day, & its about wishing & hoping & trying & trying. yes you might win sometimes & you do want to, some people never win ANYTHING but still love competing & go each week,just for a day out.
even if your dog works 100% to its very best ability,if the judge dosent like it it wont win.

BUt surely if you work and work and work you want something to prove all the work is worth while?  ike in showing we breed for the love of it, to make the breed better, yet the only way to prove we are breeding well is to do well at shows.

you can do well,without winning. you can do a perfect round & the judge hates it.
you can conquer a huge ring problem & stuff something else up,but be thrilled with the good bits.

you can win & lose a class by 1/4 of a point. that can be lost if i move my shoulder too much on a corner or i smile or move my fingers. so no winningdosent prove that much.

also id rather work a super stylish dog that won once in a while than a dog that plodded around & won alot,BECAUSE id get more fun out of the "keen" dog

Just like the showring really but harder :D  After all if you took away all the dogs that never win, and those who only occasionally manage the top 3 places you would have very few dogs at a show.

Most people enjoy a win but taking part is why they do it, if not they soon get disilusioned.

Have I missed something? Whats wrong with breeding dogs to win with? Any fool can breed dogs that can only make the numbers up! Temperament and health are vital, but other than that surely the intention of breeding dogs for any competitive dog sport (including showing) is to produce a potential winner?

& to have fun with!!!!!

Nothing wrong with breeding to win but what happens if your top dog doesn't win does it get cast aside and on comes the next would be champ?????

I thought it was all about the fun....and the bonding??

Personally I didnt even think Obedience was considred a sport?????

Obedience is a sport as it involves physical effort & training to carried out the exercises however it is in some peoples eyes robotic when actually UK obedience has more variety in exercises that the FCI obedience which has each exercise laid down even the retrieve & sendaway & heelwork patterns are set in the rules unlike the uk where allsorts of variations from judge to judge occur

LOL I've never had a steady plodding dog not even my ultra reliable GSD dog, because he was also a breed dog his heelwork had a lot of attitude & oomph LOL on a good day he would out high step all the collies especially at slow pace his head always appeared velcro'd to my leg, but in favt he never ever touched me. I just don't do ploddy dogs

Competing for its own sake is fun, but its a lot more fun (for me anyway) with a competitive dog. Obedience competitions arent my thing (gundog work and field trials are) but I cant see why obedience should be taken any less seriously than showing or field trials.

Absolutely agree that you want a dog that is fun to work, and I'd prefer a flashy stylish dog to a plodder any day. My issue was not with Michelle's points, but with ice queens assertion that breeding a litter for competitive reasons is inherently wrong.

i dont think its wrong either. howver you can be successful in many ways, & obedience is, as a sport not one where if all you want to do is "win",will suit,well if you expected that you wouldnt stay in it long.
i was using the ASDX BC as a eg of a XB with a market & a purpose  because they were stylish dogs, & it all went crazy after that.

:-D I was initially just trying to agree with you about the ASDXBC but from a slightly different viewpoint! :-D

Obedience competitions are not something I know much about. However based upon my limited observations (watching Crufts! :-D) it appears to often feature the same handlers who seem to regularly come up with the goods with a number of dogs. It always appears just as competitive at the top level as any other dog discipline.

Let's get back on the the subject of cross-breeding, shall we?   We've discussed labradoodles ad nausem - the fact is, that you are still going to have so many questionables/variables that they are not all going to turn out the same - there will be as many heavy straight coats as there will be sparse curly coats - the bad aspects of each breed will be highlighted and come together just as often as the good points will.

With aussie/bc crosses, I would be extremely concerned on the possiblity of increasing epilepsy/eye problems - not very desirable for training (let alone competing) in agility/obedience.

To my mind this is a very difficult path to tread - if someone wants a dog to train - albeit to the gun, obedience, agility - and plans a cross mating to this end - what about the other puppies in the litter?   There is additional responsibility here! 

I'm afraid too many people experience tunnel vision when it comes to their own enthusiams.

Margot