Dear All

I'm new to this board and in desperate need of advice and reassurance really!  I have had 3 Shar Pei.  I currently have 2 Bailey who is 2.5 years old and Dutch who is 10 weeks.  We sadly lost Harley at 2 years old at Christmas to Kidney failure.  It was very sudden.

Anyway the reason for my post is Bailey.  Today we took them both over to my sister in laws for lunch (bailey has been before) and they have young children who Bailey adores.  All was well and Bailey and Dutch were very relaxed, in fact both were asleep and some friends of theirs came over.  A man in his 20's and his girlfriend.  Bailey has never met them before.  The man bent down to stroke Bailey and Bailey just turned on his without any warning whatsoever and the guy was lucky to keep his fingers.  We of course told Bailey off and banished him to another room where he stayed on his own for the rest of the day. 

Unfortunately I can't say this is an isolated incident as Bailey is very dominant by nature but he has never actually bitten before.  As we know Bailey is dominant we do follow all the usual tips, like eating before him and getting him to move rather than stepping over him.  He is a gorgeous boy who I adore and he is generally the soppiest boy.  He has a perforated ear drum at the moment and had his ears treated and flushed only 2 days ago so I wonder if this guy caught his ear whilst trying to stroke him and hurt Bailey.  No excuse though. 

There is no way in the world I would give up on Bailey and I really want some tips on how to overcome these problems?  Any tips? 

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards

Nic

If Bailey has sore ears and if he thought a stranger was going to touch them I'm not surprised he snapped - trust me, perforated eardrums can be extremely painful (I know from experience), and even the sweetest-natured dog has the potential to bite when in pain.

ide take him the vets and get him checked out and if everything is ok with him health wise, ide think about getting him castrated to calm him down abit!well thats wat ide do anyway!

He is obvously under the vets for his ears.  Although I believe in castrating pet dogs, I really don't think this is a solution for this.

How upsetting for you, a horrible thing to happen.  Although you don't want to excuse him for his ears, I do think this may well have triggered the attack, he would have been in a lot of pain and perhaps the man stroked his ear.

I wouldn't panic at the moment, you are obvously aware of his shortcomings and dealing with them.  Just be aware in company that he needs being left alone at the moment.

If you are really worried about his temperement, especially with children around I would buy a muzzle so you can both relax at bit.

Good Luck
Sandra

You say that the dogs were both asleep when these people came in, was he still asleep or just coming around from his sleep when this person went up to him?  If so it cd. just be that he just still wasn't with things yet and it was the shock of someone being there all of a sudden that he doesn't know.  You'd be shocked too if someone had come up to you whilst you were still asleep/half asleep.

Hope all goes well with him.

Thanks everyone.  I do think its to do with ears but I also think we will have to have him castrated too.  I don't know why he did it really -only thing I can think of is his ears and the guy didn't put down his hand for Bailey to sniff him first.  Bailey is (as is a breed trait) very suspicious of strangers and very protective of whoevers home he is in.  I don't think he will be going out for some time!  Apart from walks of course and then I warn people not to stroke him as he's protective of me too.  I posted yesterday on another board too and had 3 replies all to put him to sleep.  I would have to be desperate and under a court order before I did that. 

I will look into gettting a behavourist.  Can anyone on here recommend a good one in Surrey?

Thanks again

Nic

I think a good behaviourist may be an idea, because if you have a breed who is meant to be suspicious of strangers, you need to be proactive in socialising them. This also needs to be an on going thing, not just something done as a pup ;)

My breed, the bSD, is  meant to be wary of strangers, but my own dog who has been socialised well is happy to greet people whether in her home or outside so it can be done.

My suggestion would be to contact Sarah Whitehead, I will PM you.

Lindsay
X

Hi Lindsay

If you could give me details of the lady you mention.  My email is nicolahewitt29@hotmail.com

Thanks again

obviosley people posting to have him pts arnt dog lovers,so ide take no notice!

thanks everyone.  I agree putting a healthy dog to sleep is not something I would even think about, I love Bailey to bits and I'm the first to admit he's a stroppy little man!  We are lucky I guess that the guy Bailey bit will not go to the police or anything.  Unfortunately a lot of people do not understand how to approach a dog.  This guy hadn't ever met Bailey before and he just put his hand straight down onto the top of Bailey's head and ruffed his ears.  I guess it was up to us as owners though to say to this guy not to stroke Bailey but it all happened so fast.  god I wish I could turn back time!

If the guy put his hand on Bailey's head and ruffed his ears, I am not surprised he reacted like that with a perforated ear drum.

Don't beat yourself up about it.  You admit his temperament is not perfect, by admitting this you are halfway there.  It is the owners that don't recognise they have a problem that will get further into trouble.

We all learn by mistakes, you now know what to do next time in a similar situation.
Good Luck
Sandra

Nic - in your earlier messages you didn't seem to be sure that the bloke ruffled his ears but by your last one you sound like you've convinced yourself he did.

Your words are something like "he's a stroppy little man"

Keep yourself aware of that fact and take care to make sure he isn't put in a position where he could bite again ....... for any reason.

It sounds like you are taking the right steps and good luck with him but don't let down your guard and become complacent. As Sandra says - to recognise a problem is to be half way there to sorting it :)

Yes I didn't really see what went on as I was across the room but my husband who was closer said the guy put his hand straight down on to Bailey's head and ruffed his ears. 

We do know about Baileys tempermant but I guess we have become complacent which we can't afford to do as he's a powerful boy.  He is generally very sweet natured, with his family  and we can do anything with him but strangers are a different issue.  He was socialised from a pup but even as 9 week old pup he was stroppy!  He is taken everywhere with us, shops, different people's houses etc and we don't have a problem generally.  There has been a lot of upset in the house over the last 3 months including losing Harley who was only 2 and we lost my step father at Christmas also who Bailey was very attached too and of course the disruption of getting Dutch.  He is very dominant though and very protective of his home although he will share possessions and food with his "brothers" and my sisters dog when he comes to visit.

Bailey is not castrated at 2.5 years old - would this have an effect even at his age?  If so he will be booked in!

Hi again Nic

I really sympathise - I had a GSD who was only family tolerant and that was our fault due to lack of socialising which doesn't seem to be an issue in Baileys life :)

Upsets in family life can affect dogs more than we humans sometimes realise is my belief.

I can't answer your question on castration and temperament I'm afraid. I had never had a dog castrated before and owned one superb GSD and then the one I mention above. After the GSD died I swapped breeds and got a Golden Retriever dog. He was castrated at 10 mths because I never wanted to go through life having a dog I didn't trust BUT with hindsight I maybe wouldn't do it again. Since then it has been a constant struggle with weight and skin problems - maybe the skin problems would have appeared anyway, I don't know but know a woman who used to post on here who also had many problems with skin after castration of her dog.
I'm sure many many others with castrated dogs will say it had no effect on weight, skin etc - it varies from dog to dog no doubt.

Please don't get me wrong and think I'm saying not to consider it - I maybe would again, especially in a case of a dominant dog but I would put much more thought to it in future than I did the last time I made a decision.

Bailey is a great breed - their aloofness appeals to me :D
I hope you get some more answers re castration to help you make your mind up :)

All the best, Sara

Reserved with strangers doesnt mean biting them, where does bailey sleep ????  you know hes stroppy so why  take him visiting in a strange place that he may meet people and react, what do his breeders say about it all ???  you cant trust this dog, you say he has an attitude, as he was a stroppy 9 week old and now over 2 and still as stroppy   nothing much seems to of changed , you do need help and id not leave it much longer  :(

I don't think anyone's really qualified to tell you whether to castrate or not except vets etc that actually know the dog. However, I too have a shar pei that I rescued at 14 months. He'd been very badly treated and very suspicious of strangers (which is a shar pei trait, but made worse with Dylan due to ZERO socialisation growing up). I had him castrated, but it made no difference to his protectiveness/suspiciousness. I actually had him castrated to stop him running away for miles if I let him off lead and chasing anything that moved!! And it helped a LOT.

If you have no problems in the recall department then in my VERY limited experience I couldn't say that castration would be the right answer. Dylan won't let anyone greet him touching the top of his head, except me. I got a puppy 6 months ago and for a while he became a lot less tolerant of strangers. He's a lot better now the 'puppy' (now twice his size!) is quite capable of looking after herself! Maybe Bailey just feels he needs to be that little extra 'on edge' to protect the puppy.

All that said, you do need to take proactive action like others have said. I highly doubt he'd ever be 'happy' about people invading his space (if he's anything like Dylan anyway) but he needs to have it drilled into his head that he needs to tolerate it. Somebody said don't take him anywhere - I personally think you should educate people you meet on about how to approach him, and not exclude him. The more people he allows to touch him the less on edge he will become.

Good luck with him. Shar peis are definitely not labs or collies, and it takes a lot to really understand how they behave!!

:-)

Hi

Bowers - Bailey sleeps downstairs with Dutch in his own bed.  When Harley died at in early Jan we had Bailey with us upstairs as he wouldn't settle on his own but when Dutch arrived a couple of weeks ago Bailey went back downstairs and is fine with it.  I know that being suspicious shouldn't mean biting! 

Thanks to Nitody for your post.  God you done well taking on a rescue Shar Pei!  I love my Shar Pei and I must do I am on my third one!  They are difficult but they are also incredibly affectionate, clever, funny and very very clean!

Bailey is the same - people except for his family are not allowed to touch the top of his head.  Its up to us to tell people not to do it but sometimes people try to stroke him when you are out without you realising - although as I said before this is the first time he has bitten - before he has just tried to move away.

I agree with you in that I won't stop taking him to places - he will have to stay on a lead with me and not have people stroking him until we have introduced them.  it will probably make him worse if we never take him anywhere.

You too have the same problem with the dreaded Shar Pei recall!!!!! Does castration really help?  If so he is being booked in for that reason anyway!  He can be as good as gold off the lead then he will take the pee and its back on the lead again!  Its far too dangerous!  Harley was the same although he was probably a little bit worse than Bailey but couldn't run as fast!  We will have to wait and see if Dutch is good at recall.  Its funny how people assume (right down to our own family) that all breeds are the same.  My godfather is forever saying that we must be pretty rubbish owners not to let him run off the lead.  At the end of the day though I would rather they were in one piece!  Bailey has a huge extendable lead and he does plenty of running safetly attached.

I said re taking him to strange places when hes not happy, meaning someomes house for the day, its not the same as having him on a leash and control of him out and about, which is a good idea, if the person bailey had bitten had insisted you could be looking at him  having to be destroyed, as for castrating and it making a big difference in recall, the breed is famous for not returning so you could be  encouraging someone to risk losing there dog, its a  breed trait, if you want to ignore it and take a chance then thats up to you, but please dont encourage others, id suggest contacting your breeder, or the  breed clubs that should be able to help, ask people who know the breed inside out,they should be able to help you.

well next time a terrier agressively bites me I'll remember to have it put to sleep then. I wonder how many dogs get put to sleep on meeting the vet because they snap at him/her...I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that a dog acting defensively and snapping at a total stranger in what is essentially it's own house (i.e. dog was there first) is grounds for destroying. If he had gone on to attack said person then I would whole heartedly agree. Dogs can't say 'excuse me, but would you mind not sticking your hand in front of my face and banging a very personal part of me'. Try doing that to a total stranger next time you see one and see how they react.

Shar peis are not at all vocal (except when it comes to posties :-D and even then it's behind the safety of double glazing and locked doors!!) so whereas other breeds may bark a warning shar peis won't.

I don't believe Bailey was acting agressively whatsoever. Unfortunatley, if nic had told the person how to approach Bailey this would never have happened. I imagine the lesson has been learned and will probably never happen again. Although I really think people should be clued up on how to approach dogs without having to be told.

But dogs DO say 'excuse me would you mind not doing that' - but are ignored, because the more intelligent species doesnt' always understand the language being used.  Then the dog gets punished for uping the level of request (by growling) so in the end it gives up on all forms of warning, and goes straight for the 'I told you I didn't like that'.......  :(

Too true.  Shar Pei are not vocal - they hardly bark (except when someone is at the door) and do not often growl.  A lot of the problems with Shar Pei are to do with the fact that they are unlike a lot of other breeds.  Shar Pei do not wagg their tales in the same way and their ears do not show much emotion either. 

I have never been bitten by a dog but I have been bitten by three horses - should I have insisted the owners had them shot? 

I think a little bit of leeway is allowed here and we should all try and understand other breeds and their tempermants.

A dogs body language speaks volumes but as you say Digger people do not read what a dog is telling you so they have to demonstrate to get their points across.

Bowers - everyone with a Shar Pei knows that they can't be trusted with recall.  We all live in hope though that you get one that does come back - they do exist apparently!  If castrating works for some people and improves their recall then that is fantastic.

We have learnt our lesson and will ask people to refrain from stroking Bailey until he has had a chance to sniff them out and teach visitors on how to stroke him.  I bet no dog really enjoys being patted down on the head - perforated ear drums or not.

Thanks again everyone.  So glad I found this board!  Can post lots of questions now about Bailey and his little brother Dutch!