i think that the docking of tails is cruel just so you can show a dog. that is not how nature intented them to be like. why can't all dogs have waggy tails?? we try to stop cruelty to animals but we still allow this to continue?? just because the pup's are only a few days old doesnt mean it doesn'y hurt?

:d :d  love the message next to this.  No comment on the subject matter!

Is that a message from Admin about this being a possible troll post?  Why would you think that?  Perhaps these are genuinely held views, I have heard many similar on this board.

That is your opinion and your entitled to it.  Those who hold a different view are entiled to want their traditionally docked breeds stay that way, at least until the law changes. 

At least pups are docked when they do not ahve a fully developed nervous system, unlike Lambs and Pigs and chickens who have various parts removed to make them easier to keep.  there are no moves to ban these farming practices.

Guest,The practice of docking was started a long time before any dog ever entered a show ring, if you would care to research breeds there will be an historic reason usually to do with the welfare and working practice that the particular breed was bred and developed  for. You are entitled to your opinion just as breeders and owners of docked breeds are, no one is asking you to get involved with these breeds are they? So live and let live.Have you complained about legitimate legal farming practices carried out in this country that far excede any `so called mutilation`to dogs tails carried out by caring vets for caring dog breeders.

Also nature intended animals to be able to reproduce but we routinely neuter oru pets, a far more invasive process, that striclty speaking is unnecessary if the owner uses due vigilance????

My gran used to dock her own yorkies (yrs ago)

Most never even made a noise but the ones who did it was just a little squeek - so ~I dont think it hurts them.

I have no views either way!!!!

Jo

The dog's tails are docked before their nerves are fully formed so they don't feel anything. It is not cruel try having a look here, this is cruel http://www.cdb.org/gsp.htm This is what happens when you dont dock working breeds.

sarah xxxx

Not going to get into a political argument but who are we to decide whether dogs have tails or not. Most are born with a tail and IMO they should keep them. After owning a docked breed and knowing how important a tail is for body language to other dogs. He was big and black and others thought him a threat as they couldn't see a tail wagging. so others would have a go first, when all he wanted was to be friends. Thankfully it never made him aggressive.  I would never again go for one that is docked. I would have had the same breed again, but with a tail, if I could have taken it into the ring and not get penalised because of having a tail. There are so many other beautiful breeds I would like to choose from but alas they are all traditionally docked. Tail docking in horses was made illegal eons ago and that was the norm back then. Ear cropping isn't allowed in this country. Thankfully. Personally  I'll be glad when it is made illegal. And it will come about and not too far off either :D
Just MO
Anne
ps Re CDB. We used to have Irish Wolfhounds, who are prone to damaging the ends of their tails due to wagging and banging them against something. No one would ever dream of docking a Wolfhounds tail, only for surgical reasons, just for this reason. It probably happens to other breeds who lash their tails about but thats no excuse to chop them off :(
I just know this opinion is going to put the cat among the pigeons :p :p :p

Some breeds are born without tails mine included and I've never met a dog who has been unable to tell the body language of my dogs.  Anton is black and white, mainly black and he was born with hardly any tail at all definitely not one that would be noticeable to another dog and never has a dog felt threatened by him, more the other way round.

Still not totally for docking but whilst it's still legal I will continue to do it legally.  They cry much less when having their tails done than they do when they have their dew claws done and that's not being banned.  Oh and by the way our dogs use their front dew claws to manouevre.

Not at all Anndee, you're entitled to be anti-docking if you want to, but what I find objectionable, is the anti-dockers trying to impose their will onto the pro-dockers. Pro-dockers don't tell you to dock your dogs against your will, breeders in traditionally docked breeds who do not wish to dock their puppies have the choice. Do as you see fit, but allow Pro-dockers the same courtesy. You mention docking of horses tails having been made illegal 'eons ago', rightly so, I agree, foals are born with their central nervous system fully developed, they are up on there hooves within minutes of being born. Not so puppies, their eyes and ears are sealed shut, and their spinal cord is not complete at birth or for days afterwards. Ear cropping was done at several months of age so was undoubtedly a painful procedure and not comparable to docking a puppies tail within a couple of days of birth.
Dawn R.

Docked before showing came to be is so correct. Many dogs were docked for the purpose of work be it gun, guard etc. But why, now the working need has been removed for many of these breeds,are those that no longer require to have their tails docked still being docked? Is this not fancy, for the ring or otherwise? Can someone tell me, for instance, why Dobes and Rotties are still docked? Or Old English Sheepdogs? Why is the spaniel dock shorter in the show dog than the working lines? Why is the GSP docked and the English pointer not?
Dont get me wrong, I'm pro docking for gun dogs, even though the majority will never see a shoot! The ones that work quite rightly need their tails docked. But lets face it, most become companions and some show dogs. Perhaps in the show ring some judges are getting better about tails, especially if competitors are coming over from abroad. I just cant see the need to remove a part of the animal for reasons that no longer exist. I have even seen it quoted from some breeders/breed enthuisasts that, should docking become outlawed they will not keep the breed! How can anyone profess to love a breed only to leave it because of the length of its tail?

I don't know of anyone who is planning upon leaving my docked breed when and if docking puppies becomes illegal. I did hear that one breeder was, but since then she has handled for a foreign owner, the first tailed show champion in our breed.

I don't think the length of dock has anything to do with anything, either it's docked or it's not and longer docks are not a lesser procedure, and shorter docks are not a bigger procedure, one or two breeds are tipped. As this is a legal procedure, the length is down to personal preference. Observe any docked breed and it is clear that length varies alot across the board, not just between show and working dogs. I am refering particularly to gundog breeds here, as those are what I'm most familiar with.
Dawn R.

I've wondered a lot about that also Jaky. If you are really passionate about a breed, it beggers belief that you would come out of it because it has to have its tail left on !!
The argument for leaving tails on working/gundog breeds, is, vets won't necessarily know what breed they are are at the time of docking. They could be told anything by the owner/breeder. Especially if they have never seen them or the dam before. Its a sticky one :(
Anne

If they are passionate about their breed then maybe they can't face breeding puppies to suffer damage in their lifetime.  Working breeds that don't actually work still adopt the mannerism of their working brothers and still enjoy excercising in the same sort of terrain.

The breeders of Cavaliers have not docked for a long time & some of the King Charles breeders are also no longer docking & I don't see anyone going out of the breed because of it

I'm sure some one is going to pop up and say my Cavalier works to the gun :) but I don't think of either or these two breeds as working dogs especially the King Charles :)

Actually there are cavaliers that work in Scotland on woodcock the birds they were orginally bred to flush ! A keeper up there has a kennels that flush out the woodcock & retrieve them & no they are not docked

The Toy spaniel from whence the KCS & CKCS comes from werea dual purpose lapdog/hunting dog belonging to Royaly & the Peers the realm & the Blenheim spaniels(as in Blenheim palace the home of the Churchill family & the Duke of Wellington)were developed from Toys spaniels into a more sporting dogs that would double as a laps doge for the Duchesses.In fact during the 18th & 18th century they were known as a special strain of red and white Toy Spaniels bred at Blenheim Palace by the Dukes of Marlborough were well known for their sporting qualities, as well as for their claims as ladies' companions. Those with the lozenges were special favourites of the ladies.

It was the Victorians that developed the flatter faces spaniels purely as lap dogs & not until the 1920's was the more Cavalier type(as in Charles II)redeveloped

Tail docking, historically, was undertaken mainly by dog breeders.  There are several reasons for which dogs were docked in early times - to prevent rabies, strengthen the back and increase running speed, prevent bites when ratting, fighting or baiting. Docking of tails on farmers' or drovers' dogs used for herding and driving cattle and sheep originated in early Georgian times in England as it exempted the owner from a tax levied upon working dogs with tails.Many other types or breeds of dogs were also similarly docked to avoid this tax and although the tax was repealed in 1796

Well there you go, I knew someone was going to say King Charles's of both description were used in the field :D  well all I can say is perhaps those tiny few individuals are perhaps best docked then :)
I think this tax thing is getting a bit muddled, working dogs were often docked and were therefore able to be identified as such and therefore the tax was exempted from docked dogs not that the excise man demanded they had to be docked, or at least that's my understanding of the history :)

LOL They are Cavaliers King Charles Spaniels NOT King Charles  Spaniels(I doubt they could pick up a bird due to having a very short muzzle) & they are in fact not docked ! ;)

I am familiar with both breeds, Moonmaiden, its just in your rather long post I thought you were saying both types have been used in the field :)
Have you thought about using a link rather than all that cut and paste :)

Isabel
I agree with those that work to the gun,or terriors, but a Dobe or OES? Those breeds that never do the job they were intended for. And lets face it, welfare has improved so the likes of the OES shouldnt have mucky tails to get infested any more. And how many different breeds of dogs follow the same terrain as custom docked breeds with no problems? I am on the side of docking for a working reason, but not for show or because 'its always been and so shall be' So many say having a tail spoils the look of the dog....emmm why? It just looks different, thats all. An experienced eye should be able to see past that? And sadly, some have said that because of the looks they would no longer have the breed, not for reasons of possible danger. And, as I have said, why dock if the reason for docking that breed no longer remains?

I have never owned these breeds Jaky so I can't answer for them, perhaps something about the build of the tail and the action they use may make them succeptable to damage but I really don't know.

>how many different breeds of dogs follow the same terrain as custom docked breeds with no problems

Do you mean not of the working breeds?  Again its a question of how the tail is built and the action.  I think it is generally the working breeds who enjoy pushing themselves into briars, for example :)
If people want to continue docking non working breeds purely for the look then I am not about to defend that view but on the otherhand I know from experience how little affected the pups are when done by an experienced vet so I'm not troubled by their continuing to do it either :)

Hi Jaky

Dobes do indeed perform the job to which they were bred - as a personal protection dog. Who says all gundogs actually go on to a working life? How can this be decided when puppies are a few days old? You don't understand why some breeders want their breed to stay docked because you don't own one of them. As for OES in an ideal world full of ideal owners they shouldn't get flystrike, but unfortunately they do. I was a groomer in a vet surgery for many years and have personal experience of this in OES and many other breeds.
I don't see why when there are so many animal welfare issues that docking is at the forefront. Ask any dobe breeders and they will tell you that dew claw removal is more distressing to puppies - my youngest dobe has his dew claws intact but his tail docked because his breeder (a good friend of mine) couldn't put them through the pain.
I fell in love with my breed partly due to the stunning outline - this is totally ruined by a tail IMO. If my right to have a docked dog was taken away then I would not own another dobermann, I am not alone in the dobermann world with this view, how can this possibly be beneficial to my breed?
Why should your right to choose be any more important than mine?

Angela x

My point exactly with gundogs, you dont know if they will work or not....but then to be honest you have a damn good idea if they do. That is if you know what your breeding anyway. Same with protection dogs, and why is it that fly strike dosent affect all OES withtails? Why shouldnt it affect any other thick hair tailed breed?

I'm sorry, but I find it to hard to understand how anyone could possibly say they love the breed, but then would not own one if tail docking stopped because of having a tail. For goodness sake, a dog is more than an outline, its nature surely is what makes people want the breed? This sort of comment makes me so very sad. I love dobes and have owned one, he was the most loving daft thing and it broke our hearts when he died. I would have loved him tail or no tail. You say; How can leaving the tail on be beneficial? If its simply outline, and you give no other reason other than personal choice, then can you tell me how it will be beneficial to take it off? Why is a Doberman docked? In this day and age?
I fail to see how owning docked breed dogs or not, as the case may be,
would make me understand why breeders want their pups docked. Unless perhaps to sell them? How do you know I dont own a docked breed dog? Because I happen to question the WHY?
My right to choose is not different to yours, but we obviously stand on differing sides of the fence when it comes to the why.

This is becoming to heated for me. I get upset when people say they love a breed but then say they would discount it for a purely cosmetic reason. I actually agree with docking if performed for a legit reason. I do think its about time the powers that be made a decision as to it being legal or not. Then let the vets carry on. Or not. But owning a breed or not simply because of whats at the end of its spine........sorry, not for me. I love the breed or not, or love it still dont want one. Or dont like it. But the tail is not a part of that decision at all.

I can't understand why you are upset!!! It's only an opinion, I'm not sitting at home mutilating any puppies :D

You said animal welfare has improved (I have to disagree) so the likes of the OES shouldn't have mucky tails - this is only true in the case of OES etc. that have decent owners - unfortunately a lot of the time people who breed these undocked pups couldn't care a fig what kind of home they go to. They end up with people who have no idea how to care for their coats - or their other needs for that matter. For your information the worst case of flystrike I have seen in a dog was a samoyed. Thank God his tail went over his back or he may well have been eaten alive!!! :(

I still don't get your argument that gundogs should be docked even though the majority of them will never see a shoot!! What is the difference then in my breed? Wouldn't the gundogs that didn't work then have been docked purely for cosmetic reasons? The reason that dobes are docked does still exist - they are a relatively new breed and are traditionally docked.

I could get quite upset myself that you insinuate I don't love my breed. I would certainly love my dogs if they had tails and I am also well aware that dogs are more than an outline!!! I never said this was my only reason for owning a dobe - now that is just silly, isn't it?

I am not alone when I say I would choose not to have dobes if my right to own a docked dog was taken away. This would be catastophic for the breed, severely restricting the gene pool. This is what I was saying - not that having a tail is beneficial????
It is entirely my personal decision not to own a dobe if docking were banned, just as it is anyones to choose the breed they do. I totally respect peoples opinions if they prefer to own an undocked dobe.

I'm sure Christine (Kerioak) would disagree that dobe pups are docked to sell them. As a breeder of quality undocked puppies I'm quite sure she has no problems selling them.

Don't think that all the controversy will end if docking is banned, something else will be next, maybe short faced breeds - long backed breeds - short legged breeds - who knows?......

Angela x

Ok. here we go.
With reference to OES and similar types, well the OES were working dogs, and originally (way back then) they were docked to keep them clear of problems because of the way they lived. That is not the case here in this country today. So why dock them now. Yes, I am more than well aware that many people abuse their dogs, and there are lots of tail probs, in any breeds or mongrels with similar tails. But Im not talking about them, simply the reason for trad docking the oES. If the original reason has gone, why dock now.

Dobes. Well, I didnt think they were that new in this country, but I wont argue dates because I dont know when they came in. And I certainly would never say that the Keriok Dobes were anything less than lovely well bred dobes and a lovely lady owns them. if anyone could be called an experienced lady in the breed she certainly is. What I cant see is the reason to dock them, after all the ears went as well at one time. they dont now, so why the tails? And my point regarding people not wanting to own them is, if they truely loved the breed for ALL of it, then they wouldnt give it up and all the years of dedicated breeding simply because tails can no longer be docked. And I'm sorry, but you saying then, and again now that you wouldnt have the breed if they had to have tails I still find sad because this is such a lovely breed and if you really loved it, and the other people you mention did, then pride over not being able to have a docked dog should not come into it if this really is the breed you love. They are more that a tail or your right to own a docked breed? Im not saying you dont love the dogs you have now, but would you have them if they were tailed? Dont think so.

Gundogs. My opinion is that those, and other working dogs that still do the job docking was intended for, should be allowed to be docked. Now, when it comes to which pups should or shouldnt, well thats not easy I agree. Especially as pups are docked at 3 days, before any decision can be made to their future.  But come on, it shouldnt be that difficult. if someone shoots they belong to clubs, same for field trials, and I would think those that use terriors belong to some organisation. So it shouldnt be that difficult to certify who does what with their dogs.

And a lot of people dock trad docked breeds because its not easy to find homes for them. A lot of people are like you, and wouldnt touch a docked breed if it had a tail no matter how well its bred. You wouldnt buy one from Christine, would you? Nor would many in your breed from what you are saying. Well, theres a lot in the other breeds think like that, that is the point I was making.

And as to outline, you made that comment in your post, not I. I reeally wish someone would agree to docking, or ban it, because at the moment its quite stupid, some vets will even 'have a go' when someone who has bought a puppy without a tail goes for a health check. As if they can be held responsible for it being docked. And those skilled in docking will be phasing out as well, there is an art to a good dock, and the young vets are not being taught. Then there are the horror stories of backstreet breeders hacking the tails off........if only all vets would dock, or not, then this would stop too.

Much as I dont agree with docking should the original purpose for docking be gone, I would rather all trad docked dogs continue to be docked, cosmetic or not, if it meant all vets will dock and the need to hack tails off was no longer there. And all puppies should be issued with a vet cert like a vaccination card saying who docked and when.

But I still find it hard to understand and therefor upsetting, when people would come out of a breed simply because the tail can no longer be removed. I just cant see how anyone could be really dedicated to the breed, then do that........

You can't understand why someone who is dedicated to the breed would give up if docking is banned because you are not affected by the decision - you are not in my position.

I am making no excuses for being pro-docking and I am not trying to convert you or anyone else, as I believe in freedom of choice. In actual fact I am a nurse for a very anti-docking vet. Vets FYI have never been "taught to dock" as part of their studies.

Not once did I get personal about you but you make assumptions about me!!! You also fail to read my posts properly!!! I never said you had any thoughts on Kerioak dobermanns (So sorry Christine) I was simply disproving your point that dobes are docked just to sell them and I WOULD love my dogs tails and all. HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT I WOULDN'T.

The whole point of my reply was to say I should have freedom to own a docked breed not to argue the toss about why they were originally docked!! Keeping docking legal will not stop backstreet docking - this still happened when vets did routinely dock!!!

I joined this thread to put my point over as someone who would be affected by a docking ban - not in response to the OP. I will not be posting on this thread again so please don't get personal in your argument.

All that said carry on posting :D Fill your boots :D

I wish there was a banging your head against a brick wall smiley :D :D :D
Angela x

Whether a gundog goes to a working home doesn't make a difference in the dogs eyes.  I work my springers and the one undocked has had more tail injuries whilst going for walks.  Whether the owner wants to hunt with them doesn't make a blind bit of difference because if you walk a spaniel in an area with lots of cover, they are going to be in and out of that cover.

Helen

Ok, gabrieldobe, so you wont reply anymore. Knock your socks off. you said. Ok , I will. :( I never said that you didnt love the dogs you have. If I gave you or anyone else that opinion then I'm sorry for that, it was not meant that way. You said if you couldnt have docked ones you wouldnt have the breed at all, like a lot of your dobie friends. So, my opinion is that I doubt your love for the breed as a whole if you wouldnt have them simply because of tails. Therefore, if they had tails you wouldnt have the ones you have now. You said you fell in love with the breed partly because of the outline. How does a tail spoil it? Changes yes. Draws the eye because we are not used to tails. But spoils it?....I hope show judges for docked breeds can see furthur than that.

I know vets are not trained to dock anymore, which is why I mentioned it, and I think its a bad thing, while it legal they should be.

As to backstreet docking, many breeders made a far better job of docking than some vets did. By  backstreet I mean the 'hackers' with stanley knives which let the pups bleed to death in agony. Ok, so that happened too  ;), my point is this, you cant stop it but if vets did it, had to certify they had done it, then just maybe it may stop those that shouldnt if they think they are going to be caught and fined. or maybe imprisoned.

Im sorry also that this has appeared to be a direct arguement with you, on a personal level, which is grossly unfair. it should be directed to anyone who could give up their lifes work and commitment to the breed simply because of a tail dock. I couldnt kick my child out if for some reason its behaviour became such that I didnt like. To me, giving up on a breed because of docking, and this reason alone, would be like giving up on ones child simply because it did something I didnt like, no matter how serious.

Ok. So I'v knocked myself out. Do I feel any better? Not really, because I know that you and I will never understand each other, nor will your friends or me them. So, when docking comes in we will see the end of all docked breed dogs. Does this mean all the big kennels will rehome them, or destroy them? What is to become of the dogs when breeding, working and showing ceases?

Sad times :(

As a non docking breeder of a docked breed I find it interesting that the pro dockers consider it a courtesy to be allowed the choice, from personal experience I don't have a choice pro docking judges make their feelings known regardless of animal quality in the show ring.

I don't dock because my experience of puppy docking as well as other livestock on the farm is that it is unnecessary and indeed painful, my grandfather and father both worked springers and stopped docking back in the 60's the dogs never suffered tail damage, feet and ears were a different ball game.

In my own breed things are shall we say interesting as the top kennels for 04 is a non docking breeder, not for ethical reasons like myself as she's docked for over 30 yrs but simply because she can't be bothered since her husbands death and like she says someone has to have the first tailed champion in the breed.  Since Crufts this year I've had serveral puppy enquiries and have come to the conclusion that those covering Discover Dogs have been telling the public that Schips are born tailess, which in a very small minority is true but 99% of all pups have tails at birth, how do I know they've been misquoting at DD?  Simple 'went to DD at Crufts and fell in love with the schipperke found your details on X website and wondered how you get schips with tails when they are a tailess breed?' I ask where they get the idea from that they are tailess and they tell me from DD, I find it amusing as this tells me that the pro dockers in our breed are not happy with the wins we are getting with our tailed schips at open and champ level plus we are getting a lot more enquiries for our tailed dogs over the last yr or so.

I have made a complaint to the kc re a couple of champ judges and their obvious attitude towards tailed schips and received an apology and been advised that the judges are being 'observed' whilst judging other docked breeds, my point to them was that if overseas visitors from non docking countries can see a judge is anti tails by their performance in the ring then they are not going to waste time and money bringing their dogs over for the champshows.

Finally at Crufts this year I took first post graduate dog, a class of 10 dogs, with a TAILED GOLD schip, he was the only coloured to be placed all day and he was bred by the top kennels for 04 so a great day for me and his breeder oh and the overseas exhibitors who'd never seen a gold schip with a tail before, good job he loves the attention coz he didn't see much of his cage that day lol.

some musings on tails!!!
i like tails.
my breed has a tail :).
out of my three,all have very different tails & tail carriage,
flynn is always hitting his tail on stuff,this sometimes makes me worried but not want to have him docked.
tara is in and out the undergrowth the same as a good ESS,she has never damaged her tail (although did half rip off a dew claw)
labs are workers right? ive seen loads of labs with tail damage so why arent they docked?
why are oes docked  & not beardies?
do i vaguely remeber some "tale"  about working dogs been docked so their owners werent taxed,years ago?

some traditionally docked breeds,i quite like WITH tails, theres a few i dont. what i really dont like to see is a sort of deformed natural bob, fine if its good bad if its odd.

around here i see alot of working spaniels with full tails

dont gsds suffer from some sort of tail/bottom problem? perhaps they coulds be docked?

what im trying to say (i think) is,some "reasons" for docking do not really stand up. but if you like your dogs docked thats fine by me!

personally i like tails! :D-you can like whatever you like!!!!!!:D

BTW ive seen a BC & a GSDxBC docked through injury

The argument that "working gundogs should be docked" is ridiculous. Why sould it be okay for some but not for others? I firmly believe that by allowing just some to be docked is the easy option to get the Bill passed - once it is passed the follow up will be that ALL docking of dogs will be banned. This is the way that the Government are managing to keep a large portion of breeders quiet, by having them think they are "safe". Also bear in mind that working gundogs days are limited as hunting with guns will be the next target.

What's a deformed bobtail like???  Anton my youngest hardly has any tail, though boy he can move it.  It's really weird because the natural short bobtails wag their tails mainly up and down not side to side.  His mum has a longer natural bobtail which I prefer because it's got a bit of length to it, she never wags her tail up and down.

Listen folks, it was my turn the other day, now a "guest" has posted a controversial topic and everyone is arguing again.  The poster has NOT bothered to join the forum to participate in this or any other thread, so just think of their "real" motives for the thread in the first place. 
Dawn.

well said dawn where is the guest now why isnt he commenting further hes loaded the gun and letting you lot fire his bullets stop arguing agree to disagree and ignore such posts!!!

I cant understand, and never will understand, why someome can say they love a breed but wouldnt have it simply because they would be allowed to have tails. Maybe Im being thick here, I dont know, but if you have dedicated years of your life to a breed, which I know many people do, building up a number of excellent dogs be they work or play, improving that breed for future generations, how can you suddenly stop and withdraw simply because, as in the case of docked dogs, docking is not allowed? How could you just do that? its like giving up your home, your family, simply because something you like has changed. I mean, as the dobie lady says, whole gene pools could be lost....how could rep breeders and protectors of that breed, or any breed, allow that to happen?

Thank god the hunting folk have no intention of letting their hounds suffer this fate. After all, their whole reason for being has been stopped. Which involves horses too. And the RSPCA trying to get their ore in, then withdrawing when asked for help. (Thank goodness)

Perhaps, having aired my views, its best I stop this posting too. I would, however, have liked to know what others views are. Will you all back off your docked breeds like the Dobe people will should a docking ban come into force?

I prefer the look of my breed with a short tail, but I'm lucky, they can be born with short tails and that's why I kept my youngest as he was born with a natural bobtail.  If it was banned though I wdn't give up on my breed, I love the breed as a whole way too much, but I would try and make sure that I kept the bobtail gene going in the breed.

My worry in my breed is that when they do start showing there are so many differences in long tails from what I've seen of dogs in Europe that maybe a good example will be thrown out because it's tail doesn't look right.  Who's to say which style is correct?  I know that when we had to do the breed standard we had to put our preferenc on how we would like a long tail to look.

>they would be allowed to have tails

I presume you mean forced to have tails :) anyone is allowed to leave tails if they want.
I have already given you one good reason i.e. they do not want to breed puppies that may suffer from damage when leading an active life whether working or not due to the way the breed behaves.  I know it is a long thread but have you forgotten that one already :)

MAY suffer you said. Well, perhaps all dogs should have their tails removed because they MAY suffer damage :(. Nope, not forgotton that one. Foxhounds go into all sortsof cover, over under and into wire etc, they keep their tails..sorry sterns. They get cut and damaged, but are not removed. I really cant believe as a pro docker I am having this arguement!! I love and admire docked breeds, love to see them at Game fairs etc, and dobes have a soft spot from me.

I have seen the pics of the dogs with sore tails on the CDB site (Im a member, suprise!!) They are getting a bit old now though... Has anyone ever studied actual cases where tailed dogs have been worked and used over the sort of places they are supposed to injure themselves, and compared that to the same number of dogs at the same location who are docked? has an informed decision ever been made, or is it simply that is what our forebears say so that is how it is? What actual method has been used to prove injuries will take place?

Having said all this, I still say that field dogs, of whatever sort, are rightly docked. But to dock dogs that dont do the job they were docked for, or do a job that other dogs are used for but are not docked, then in that case I dont understand it.

I know a lot of trad docked dogs that have been allowed to keep their tails work and play with no tail damage at all. Which is why i have begun to question the reasons for it. And I say allowed to keep tails because they, the dogs, dont have a choice, do they. And, as dogs with their tails left on have full and happy lives its a bit shortsighted of the breeders to halt a breed simply because they think it may happen. But, then thats their choice. Christine with her Dobes manages, as does Crystal Weims. They know their dogs dont need to be docked. Their pups have happy long lives.....as do many others. I guess time will tell, like with most things.

Signing off ;o)