I have had to put it here, because it will not let me log on, i phoned the vet and they said to starve her for twenty four hours, and observe her, which I did, however, I had to go out for an hour and when i came back she had eaten some waterproof blanket (this was last nite) and she doesnt chew, and i didnt give her any breakfast and she has chewed a paper tissue, when i was having a shower.  She has been out this morning, and her faeces was back to normal.  what is the next step? just to leave her, but she may have blanket in her?  everything would all happen at once wouldnt it?  she seems comfortable now though, shes fast asleep, and last night she didnt really settle until very late on into the night.

Sarah and Keisha

Hi Sarah,

It's obviously good that she appears to have had a normal bowel movement insofar as no blood or mucus - but being honest I would be annoyed if my vet advised me over the phone about this problem when Keisha has a history of tummy troubles.  OK, the blood may be the result of a minor tiny blood vessel tearing because of straining for example but equally could be due to severe internal inflammation or ulceration - after all you said there was a LOT of blood and that she'd already had an upset tummy for a few days :(

As to her having since chewed and eaten some waterproof blanket - without personally knowing exactly how much she's eaten I can't advise on what that's likely to do.  Again, it's really something for discussion with your vet ....

Sincerely hoping everything works out OK, and that her system just needs a rest
Good luck, Teri ;) 

I think if Sarah was able to give a detailed history it would be quite reasonable to suggest starving and observing, no doubt she was instructed to report back if it didn't settle in 24 hours, it seems to have worked too :)
I think you will have to just keep observing her re. the chewed blanket if it causes a blockage she will start showing signs of vomitting, discomfort etc but she could be in a bit of a state pretty fast if any of the bowel gets caught up with it.

As in a number of things Isabel, we each have different standards of what is reasonable and acceptable

Teri

My standards are extremely high, Teri, when it comes to veterinary care, having had a dog that suffered badly from colitis I think it perfectly reasonable to save it the stress of attending the vet if both the vet and I are happy that a good enough account of the history can be given over the phone.  With a less sensitive dog I would recommend a full examination but in cases like this where stress can play such a part it is not necessarily neglectful but infact beneficial to attempt a course of action that does not involve a trip to the surgery.  As long as the owner has clear instruction as to how long to observe, what for and what course of action to take if not successfull I really don't think there is anything wrong here, if fact it does  appears to have been successful :) but even if it hadn't it still seems like an totally acceptable first line to me.

Isabel,

This young bitch had suffered five consecutive days of runny bowel motions, was yesterday (at the time of contacting the vet) producing "extremely bloody mucus", whining and  unable to get comfortable.  She has a history of GI problems.

The standard of veterinary care I am used to would ensure a dog presenting these symptoms was seen *immediately* - and I personally would accept no less.  As I said, we have different standards of what is reasonable and acceptable and we would appear to agree on that, at least  :)

Teri

I think I would prefer that we agree we have different views as to how this should have been handled.  By saying you think we have different standards would imply, as mine are very high, that yours are not and I'm sure you don't really mean that :)

>By saying you think we have different standards would imply, as mine are very high, that yours are not<

But we've each stated what we would do in this instance - I don't believe there's much ambiguity ;) 
However you do make me laugh Isabel :D :D :D

Teri

So given that you think my, and Sarahs vet's view, that conservative action is the best first line in stress related illnesses is not of your "standard" what would you have preferred to happen and do you think it would have improved things as fast as it obviously has?

Hi, been away for a while, no internet and very poorly dog, and I dont want to alarm anyone BUT I would get my dog to the vet straight away! Having had my girl with a few days of runny poo, then she vomitted on the third day so off to the emergency vets we went (I had been told over the phone earlier that it could be colitis). Back to my own vet the following day because I could see small amounts of blood in her runny stools, again they said it was a tummy upset and she was put on more antibiotics. Two days later I took her back and she lost quite a bit of blood whilst in the vets and they said it was a very bad case of colitis! Two days later she went back appearing fine and well, but it didnt last cos the next day, now Friday a week after being first seen by the vet, she was losing an awful amount of blood in her stools so back to the vet and they kept her in. On the monday she was still no better but at least she had stopped being sick after meals, she hadnt lost her appetite until monday night when she wouldnt eat anything at all. Wednesday they decided to open her up and 'explore' and boy was I glad they did cos she had an intersussuction (sp) of the bowel and had to have a large part of it removed. She came home on the friday but she still had the runs, finally they decided she was food intolerant and she was put on, and still is on, Hills hypoallergenic. Any other food I introduce goes straight through so now we are thinking of blood tests to find out more about her food allergy. What caused this I've no idea. could have been stress (she didnt like swimming) or something she ate from the garden which caused a blockage, though nothing was found on the x ray which is why they thought it was colitis or something like it.
Sorry I went on a bit, but if any of my other dogs or indeed Maddie again, had any blood whatsoever, I would be straight down the vets!

Dee

As you say, could have been stress, possibly a more conservative management in the first place with no trip to the vets, no antibiotics and starving for 24 hours may have led to a different outcome we will never know, but in my experience of countless episodes, in my dogs 15 years, conservative management was found to have the best effect on almost all occasions, always with consultation with the vet I might add.

Hi Dee,

I'm so sorry to read about your dog - but by taking the time to alert visitors to this thread of the importance of seeking veterinary intervention you may very well help prevent someone else going through this same trauma.

I sincerely hope your girl fully recovers or at the very least her condition can be successfully managed by diet.

Very best wishes,
Teri :)  

I don't know if it is relevent to this illness but I have recently seen a warning on wwwcollienet.com E'coli a new strain named haemorrhagic gastro-enteritis causing blood in the faeces stating that you must attend the vets immediately as the bug can be life threatening, the virus is virilant and the patient needs to be put on a drip.It also states that owners should be aware of the consquences of putting off a visit.

apparently it is travelling up and down the country.

A useful warning :) but I expect Sarahs vet would be aware if it was in her area.  You would not expect the condition to improve by simply resting the bowel if an infection was responsible so it would seem unlikely in this case.

Apparently all vets are not aware as a friend of mine with a new puppy has been extremely ill with this virus but did not know about it.

Thanks for posting this info Starryeyes - I'm sure no-one would want this type of serious illness to go undiagnosed :(

I'd far rather make countless unnecessary trips to my vet then miss a single important one.  Will keep everything crossed that your friend's puppy pulls through - she must be very anxious about it.

Best wishes, Teri 

 

thanks Teri
my friends Puppy is  thankfully on the mend after 1 wk in hospital and 2 days of interpheron on a drip.
she is finally on the mend and has been home  for 4 weeks she obviously is now underweight but loving her food so the weight should start to pile on quite quickly.
It was the worst week of my friend life she had only had her for 3 days when she fell ill rapidly  they thought they were going to loose her it was treatment first diagnosis later all the information was sought over the internet she would have died if they had waited for the test results to arrive.
I actually went to see her this evening and she is a playful bouncy beardie just as you would expect her to be at her age.<Wonderful>

Great news on the puppy :)  and what relief it must have been.  Had already pm'd you for an update and age of puppy etc - don't know if it reached you?

Wonderful the way it's worked out,
Regards,

Teri :)

Thank you Teri,  I honestly think if we had sorted her out sooner and knew what the symptoms might have meant, she would have been saved from this and maybe it could have been less of a major operation if caught sooner, I don't know. I couldn't bear looking at her so ill, and I visited her every day in the vets and always came out in floods of tears because she just kept getting worse whilst we waited for results of one test or another. I can't even think about it now without getting upset.

I sincerely hope that the other lady's dog gets better very soon.
Isabel, by conservative management do you mean starving for 24 hours?

I wished I'd have been 'on line' at the time she first got ill, (had a row with bt and told them to stick it), but I really missed not being able to seek advice from here,

Dee

Yes, by resting the bowel you give it the chance to "resurface" itself if you like, of course it is not going to work if an infection is present.  A sample sent for culture takes several days but ones day rest can eliminate that cause.  Of course the dog needs careful observation I would not suggest someone goes of to work and forgets about it :) but in my experience when the cause is simply a flare up caused by stress, as it very often is, the last thing the dog needs is a trip to the vet, thermometers up its bum, bloods test and definately not antibiotics.  A consultation with your vet is vital but a visit, when conservative management is going to be tried, is obviously pointless and likely to cause more harm than good.  Obviously in your case much more action was necessary but I can't help wondering if a gentler approach in the beginning may have helped but then again your vet would know a lot more about your dogs history than I do.

'a gentler approach in the beginning'?
Monday night - swimming
Tuesday morning - diaorrhea - no food
Wednesday " - diaorrhea - chicken/rice
Thursday a.m. - same
Thursday 11.30 p.m. - diaorrhea/vomitting - off to the vets (sorry but I was worried) Diagnosis possible colitis/gastric something or other
Friday a.m. - diaorrhea/blood/vomit - off to the vets (still worried)
Sat/Sun - diaorrhea no vomit
Monday afternoon - bloody diaorrhea - off to vets for x ray, possible blockage. Collected Monday night no blockage, loss of blood on way out, diagnosis chronic colitis
Tuesday - diaorrhea/blood
Wednesday - same but less back to vets for check up as insisted by vet on monday
Thursday - awful amount of blood loss in stools, back to the vets (sorry but still worried ) They kept her in, took blood/culture tests
And I dont want to bore you any more with all the other details, surfice to say by the following Wednesday they decided to open her up and that is when they found what was wrong. Not once in those 11 days did she lose her appetite or show any signs of lethargy or real illness until the very last 3 days.
Was I so wrong to have taken her to the vets in the first place? Maybe I'm glad I wasn't on line at the time.

Certainly not wrong to see your vet, under the regime I am suggesting second level action should have been taken on the first Wednesday when her condition did not improve after 24 hours starving I feel I have stressed all alone you don't leave the dog for longer than that.  I think you need to remember too that common things are common so it is always reasonable to treat for them first, you were unlucky to suffer a intersussception.  Nellie suffered very badly with colitis as a youngster I seriously doubted I would still have her at a year old but once we sorted her diet out most episodes were then just down to stress if I had taken Nellie in for blood tests etc. with every episode rather that observe for 24 hours, taking further action when necessary, I am sure her condition would have deteriorated with each event and I doubt very much that my vet and I would have been able to care for her into her 16th year I sincerely hope you manage to achieve the same.

Hi Dee, have just come back on-line and seen the additions to this thread and everything you and your dog have had to go through :(   Thank God you were persistent and had a vet that didn't delay any further.  If only we had an accurate way of knowing how our pets feel but they can't describe a pain, indicate the location(s) or levels of discomfort/agony that people can nor can they take themselves off for treatment so are totally dependent on us.

I've known three friends in recent years who've lost much loved dogs to symptoms that first presented and were treated by their vets as colitis - two had bowel cancer and the other stomach cancer.  None of the dogs were elderly, 7 years, 5 years and the one with stomach cancer was 14 MONTHS.  It's heartbreaking.

>Was I so wrong to have taken her to the vets in the first place?<

I think the results speak for themselves Dee - you might well have lost her otherwise.  Good luck with her, Teri      

If only medicine were that black and white Teri, by running lots of tests to look for cancer, which is a lot less common and which is often inopperable you run the risk of making a colitis suffers condition a lot worse.
I would have liked to have seen Missies vet take more action, as it happens, as her 24 hour starve did not settle things but then I would have sought further advise as soon as that was apparent.

Thanks, she was only 10 months old at the time, and I never thought she would see her first birthday, which was on the 4th of this month, and I bought her toys and wrapped them all up as she loves ripping off the paper then proudly parades them up and down the garden and shows them to everyone before she goes off to her corner to examine them! 
Lots of people suggested it could have been stress that caused it, except the vets who believed it could have been a blockage in the beginning that she passed through un-noticed. But we'll never know now.
Anyway, I'm glad its all over and will be even more so when I can get her back on 'normal' food, am going to try lamb and tripe tomorrow and see how it goes. So if any one has any advice on what I can give her other than chicken, rice, fish, any dried complete food, any other hypoallergenic, (she's on Royal Canin @ £32.00 for 7 kilos only available from the vets !!) cereal, grain etc, it would be most welcome.

Dee
Yes Isabel, I would have liked the vets to have acted sooner rather than later and I still have 'issues' with them over that.

Hi again Dee,

They never stop worrying us do they - and 10 months is still such a baby :(  Glad she had a happier and more comfortable birthday and I can certainly relate to toy fans :)  If you want pm me (click on my name and then when new page opens you have option to click to send a private message ;) ) Let me know what things you know she *can't* eat as a result of any tests etc you've already had done either by an elimination process or some other means.  If it's a long list it's probably easier to work out what's left available to her :rolleyes: there's so much out there to choose from but if you have complications let me know of any specific brands or exact ingredients.

There's lots of advice available on various foods on the forum so if we can narrow it down a bit it will then make it easier for you to research a lot of different feedback from lots of members on each :)

Regards, Teri 

Missie.....you dont have to apologise to ANYONE about taking your dog to the vets, and you certainly dont have to justify it to anyone on here. If you feel worried about your dog you can take it to the vets 50 times if you like! I had a dog die of hemorrhagic gastroenteritis and it was soul destroying. Now I take my dogs straight up the vet if I have any concerns at all. BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY. I addition it may interest you to know that in the Kennel Club exams there are questions on health, and they state that if there is blood in the stool a dog should be taken to the vet. Blood in the stool is not normal in humans or dogs and medical attention is required in both cases.

Nobody has made her justify it, all posters have stressed the need to contact your vet right from the start, indeed, I would have contacted my vet 3 days before Missise did!  Having failed to settle with 24 hours starving moving on to antiinflammatory treatment may have prevented the bowel doubling back on itself.  My very first post to Sarah stated contact the vet, the issues have been entirely how management could be conducted in the first 24 hours, it would appear that my posts are all too boring to read :)

Hi Isabel,

>the issues have been entirely how management could be conducted in the first 24 hours<

but the dog had been ill for FIVE days Isabel.  And even your own first response to Sarah under the other thread was to take her to the vet with a faecal sample

However thank God Keisha appears to have bounced straight back and that's wonderful - but no thanks to her vet who did not take time to physically examine her.  Had she just been suffering from runny b/m's or sickness for one day, then 24 hour starvation is pretty much the normal management route to take however that did not apply here :(

Regards, Teri
ps - I don't think your posts are boring :D

Do you mean Missies dog, yes I did say I thought her vet should have acted sooner because she had already starved for 24 hours and it hadn't worked.
As nobody seems to either read or understand my posts I'll run through what I am advocated if you don't mind :).

Dog has diarrhoea, with mucus and possibly blood, contact vet either by visit or phone to relay symptoms.

Personally at this point I would prefer vet to adopt conservative management for 24 hours but obviously this will depend on previous history.

Starve for 24 hours, give water. I don't think rehydrations fluids will be necessary after just 24 hours without food, many people starve for a day on a point of health! :)  They can of cause be used if the condition is prolonged.

A)Dog improves - Hoorah!
B)Dogs conditions remains the same off to vets to commence antiinflammatory  treatment.
C)Dogs conditions deteriorates, vomitting occurs or severe lethargy off to the vets sooner than 24 hours.

I came to the conclusion that this was the best regime after years of caring for Nellie and fortunately it is the one followed by vet and indeed many others.  Nellie was my once in a life time dog and if I could have done more to keep here for another 15 years, believe me I would have done it, but I honestly think that for colitis you can do no better and even if something else is going on like cancer I really don't see that 24 hours delay is going to make any difference to something like that but to a stress related condition like colitis the softly softly approach can make an enormous difference.

>Do you mean Missies dog, yes I did say I thought her vet should have acted sooner because she had already starved for 24 hours and it hadn't worked.<

 

>As nobody seems to either read or understand my posts I'll run through was I am advocated<

Perhaps you ought to read the thread from the beginning again Isabel - and then you'll appreciate that the above refers to Sarah's dog, Keisha ;) who has a history of stomach problems and at the time of originally posting had been ill for five consecutive days and was now passing "extremely bloody mucus"  :rolleyes:  so while I agree with the management terms you have listed for a dog suffering only ONE day with *much milder symptoms*, as stated consistently from the beginning I think it was "inappropriate for the vet to give telephone only advice" for a dog with such severe symptoms over such a prolonged period.   HTH, Teri :)

I'm sorry Teri, where does Sarah say that? 

>under the regime I am suggesting second level action should have been taken on the first Wednesday when her condition did not improve after 24 hours starving

As I say I have said that I think Missies vet should have acted sooner.

Oh Isabel, she only had the runs to start with how was I to know it would be more than a tummy upset? She's always eating leaves, twigs etc from the garden or what she picks up on walks. I just treated her in the first instance as a tummy upset and starved her. If my post wasn't too boring to read you will have read that she wasn't sick till late on day 3! It was midnght before I got to the vets and it cost me £90 just to walk through the door! How would I have known to take her 3 days earlier that it would turn into something more nasty?
Sarah, I'm very pleased your dog is ok, just read your other posts in health.
Teri I will pm you about the food later, thanks.

Dee

I have replied to Terr's post with all the detail I could about what I would have done.  I appologise if I have upset you by suggesting that you should have done something sooner I'm afraid it was in response to more than one poster suggesting that I was advocating not contacting a vet but in actual fact I don't think they were reading my posts ;)
I think you did what many would have done, what I have learned is with the benefit of years of many of these episodes so I have the benefit of hindsight :)  This is an information exchange though and I feel for the sake of anyone with a colitis suffering dog I should pass on my experiences as I think all in all Nellie didn't do too badly :)

No harm done Isabel. We all have our dogs best interests at heart, and we all learn by our mistakes. Just hope I dont make that one again.

Dee

I'm sure you won't :)

Hi again Sarah, hope Keisha has continued to improve and the blanket incident had no adverse effects - funny how our dogs find what appears to be the maximum method of worrying us only for us to discover they have something else saved up to surprise yet again

Apart from all the opinions above re need for veterinary examination, a further danger with prolonged bouts of "dire rear" is dehydration - worth mentioning this to your vet and getting hold of some electrolyte sachets to add to her drinking water if necessary (contain essential minerals etc lost through excessively watery b/ms - similar to what we get off our GPs following food poisoning for eg) to have at home for emergencies.
Thinking of you both, keep us posted (when you can sign in again :D )

Gentle {{{hugs}}} to your special girl, Teri 

thanx everyone and sorry 2 hear bout everyone elses dogs, they all worry us lots dont they?
i have updated this on the health board, she is absolutly fine, getting those sachets would be a really good idea, had them before for her, but didnt realise you could have them in your house when soemthing has not actually happened.  she does not drink very much normally anyway, so i put quite a bit of water in her food, so, to eat the biscuits, she has to drink the water.  have done this for a few months  now and it works. 
as i am at home for easter, i have not got any of my vet books, because i would of looked in there, but ive gained as much information ,probably more, coming on here. so thanks

Already replied to your other post Sarah but great news and good luck again.

Now you can hopefully enjoy a lovely break over the Easter hols :P

{{hugs}} to Keisha,

Regards, Teri