This is a quote from "Fillis" read it and see if you can spot the bit that jumps out at you straight away :

"PROPER breeders see a return quickly when they see their puppies go to loving homes and receive pictures of well bred healthy puppies living with families who adore them and are growing into well looked after, well adjusted young dogs. PROPER breeders dont make money because they feed their bitches well and spend sleepless nights looking after their mothers and babies and are forever paying vets bills for the necessary care for their bitches and puppies and only have a reasonable number of puppies from their bitches. PROPER breeders do not breed for money, do not even consider profits and would NEVER ask the question that you have asked. "

"forever paying vets bills for the necessary care for their bitches and puppies "

That strikes me , readin between the lines, as something that breeders of dogs with a lot of health and whelping problems would say to be honest.
I breed dogs and have never once had to have a bitch to the vet and Ive bred quite a few litters, all have been delivered with no problems.

I think this should be rephrased to say "PROPER breeders make sure they breed from the healthiest dogs possible, to reduce the risk of any problems before duiring and after the whelping.
If dogs cant mate or whelp without the help and intervention of man then they should not be bred FULL STOP there are far too many breeds these days that have serious problems that some breeders turn a blind eye to.

I also find the costs given on the dog breeding thread a bit excessive and exaggerated. It is possible to rear a bitch and litter of pups on good quality food with all the health tests etc without spending the kind of money suggested by some :rolleyes: i think thats just some people trying to smokescreen the fact that they DO actually make a little off their dogs litters but they dont want people to know that cos then they could be accused of breeding for profit and not for love of the breed etc

Theres a lot of HYPOCRISY on this board, that is why a lot of people dont bother to join but post as guests. :-)

Hi Guest here is a typical expense sheet for a litter of 4 pups I bred 2 Years ago from a bitch who had already been hip scored (so add another £170 for this for a maiden bitch).

Stud Fee and Travelling costs £550
Vet expenses prior to the birth (Scan, Wormer, Eye Test £76.54
Vet expenses (post whelping check) £18.75
Registration fees, Tattos, and Affix maintenance £113.00
Food (for bitch and litter) £133.56
Miscellaneous (Things for Puppy Paxks and stationery) £38.00
Contribution to Breed Rescue (5% of puppy sales) £100

Total £1029.85

Pups sold for £500 each (didn't keep one this time) £2000

Now if this were a first litter there would be New Vet bed to buy at least two large pieces in addition to that to fo with pups £40
Whelping Box to make or Buy
Puppy Pens to buy
A keennl and run to buy for anything other than a toy breed for housing lively older pups needing excersise and shelter outside diring the day.

I would expect a first litter to make a Net loss.

this of course doesn't take into account the cost of rearing a bitch to breeding age, or ehr upkeep into old age and for they many years she will nto be bred from.  Most breeders will take 2 or 3 litters from a bitch.

I expect the costs of the litter alone to be half the price of a puppy on average.  The surplus off this goes to looking after the bitch wear abd tear on the home, repairing fences etc, and soemthing towards the costs of entry fees.  At just 20 shows a year spend on average £900 (10 champ and 10 open) not taking into account wear and tear on a car as I pay half petrol to freinds that take me to shows.

As I have an economical breed to feed my five cost me £10 a week to feed.  Now that I have 3 veterans the costs of Veterinary treetment or Insurance will increase also.  If I wasn't interested in breeding then I wouldn't keep 5 bitches and the cost of importing, maintaining, and campagning a dog in partnership, I would stick to say two dogs due to the cost of upkeep.  So as is often repeated any perceived profit is actually reinvested into the breeding stock to contunue the line and the quality of the breed.  I don't think that hypocritical at all.  In order tha others can enloy the companionship of their breed it is not unreasonable that breeders recoup some of their outlay.

Guest, one of the 'vet bills for the necessary care of bitch and puppies' that you seem to be suspicious of, is the post-whelping check, where the vet makes a housecall to make sure all is well with the bitch and litter. That's nearly £100 for a start, and GOOD breeders will consider that an essential.

Guest at the end of the day the point that was being made is that breeding dogs is not going to be a money making venture in the eyes of some people who think it will be a good way to make a fast buck :)

I have only had one litter myself and made didley poop after paying for vets bills after a CS. I made sure that all the pups and the mum got the best possible care and there was no expense spared.

It is not hypocrisy but giving the view of the possible expense you could in alot of cases expect to have.

Breeding should be done for the good of the breed and not for profit at the end of the day :)

Why don't you join and carry on discussing as you seem to be hiding behind a smoke screen yourself by coming on and assuming alot of things rather than joining in and discussing. So long as it doesn't get personal then this can be a very good site to discuss views and issues like this :)

Lucy
xx

Hi guest i think you are right well said, as you said dogs should be healthy and you would'nt get half these problems, i think some people exagerate to put others off while there still doing it as i said in a previous post if it was that costly they would'nt be doing it as they would all be bankrupt.

What problems are you talking about, frank? Even healthy bitches (and women) can die during pregnancy, during birth or shortly afterwards.

yes but jeangenie you are talking about a small fraction? mostly bitches only come into difficulty if they are carrying a small litter or an extremely large one or  if they have picked up some kind of infection or first pup out is dead, most fit healthy bitch come through labour extremely well or there would'nt be so many dogs in the world.  I'm talking about breeders who breed from dogs and they know they should'nt be bred from, the ones which have all the complaints for there breed, e.g a dog showing really bad hip problems some unethical breeders would still breed from these dogs.

PROPER breeders wouldn't breed from a bitch that had to go to the vet all the time because of health issues. They breed for the good of the breed, which they love. And this means breeding from healthy animals. What hasn't been said is the extra cost of keeping puppies that haven't sold at 8 weeks. What are you supposed to do with them? I know I kept a couple from my last litter until the right homes turned up. They were about 14 weeks old, but even if it had taken a lot longer they would have stayed, and with that comes extra expenses. Feeding, innoculations, new collars and leads, they all cost extra money. I know I didn't make anything from that litter, but I did get some very lovely puppies that I hope will be a benefit to my breed.

Interesting take on "Vet expenses"  In my case these vet expenses are for necessary health checks (eye tests annually)  plus scan costs, post whelping vet care (essential to ensure bitch is OK) and initial vaccinations and health checks for pups, plus vet supplied wormers and flea treatments.  Plus a little something into an emergency fund in case of a C section being needed (which can happen to any bitch).  You leaping to the assumption that Fillis meant vet tratment due to a problem, not routine goodd practice to ensure a healthy bitch and pups is strange.  GOOD breeders  do have healthy dogs and bitches, and to keep them that way takes routine vet treatment all year round, for parasite control, teeth care etc.  Its the bad breeders who do indeed breed from unhealthy stock, and dont pay out for the vet care, routine or emergency!  Anyone planning on breeding a litter needs to be aware that vet fees are very high, and that emergency nnight care can cost a fortune.  Whelpong can be hazardous fro r even the fitest bitch.  breeders need ot be prepared emotionally and financially. 

We good breeders are all to aware of the puppy farmers and back yard breeders who tell people that halth checks, worming, flea treatments are unecessary, as "their dogs are healthy" the only way to maintain dogs health is carefully, treating minor problems where necessary in our brood bitches and stud dogs,  and keeping up the routine care.  This cost ££££s
bye
Gwen

i understand where you are coming from but as a proper breeder your reputation should exceed you, also before that litter arrives some of the pups should be spoken for, this is what usually happens with breeders which have been around for a while.  

I think you'll find Gwen's reputation is very well respected, frank! ;)

LOL, JG :D

M.

Hi Frank, well thanks for that lesson in  breeding practice!  Not quite sure how prebooked pups has any effect on Vet care and costs, but useful to know that a "Good Breeders " reputation will go before them!    Perhaps as we get better we will learn this :)  As the owner of one of the top winning American Cockers of all time, who has Champion offspring on 3 coitinents and numerous countries, I am obviously a novice to all this, which is why I am giving advice to others. 

Ok, enough of the sarcasm, if you are suggesting that deposits held on pups should go towards vet care - not a good idea.  Firslty, we never take deposits before pups are born, secondly always keep deposits "on ice" until pup collected in case we decide we have to pull out of sale ( some "ideal " puppy buyers are not alll they seem)  However, I may be barkign up the wrong tree, so wold be happy for you to explain your reasoning to your reply.
bye
Gwen

Hold on a minute Gwen who said i was directing anything at you? You weren,t even on the board yesterday.

The problem lies with how people read the board, Frank, if people just read new posts it isn't clear which post is answering what but when looking at the thread directly it is clear that your post was not directed to Gwen :)

Hi Frank,  yes I was in this discussion yesterday, and my post which yours appeared ot refer to (as assumed by 2 other members as well) immediately ofllowed mine in time and sequence.  Therefore assumed you were referring to me.
Gwen

Frank, you seem to be missing the point some of us are trying to make. We will not be bankrupt if we do not make money from our puppies because we are not trying to make a living from it - we earn money in the same way as anyone else. We breed dogs for the love of it and for the love of our chosen breeds we do not mind if it costs us money, the same way as someone who loves football does not mind the fact that going to matches costs them money. But we feel very strongly that anyone who breeds for money is not breeding because they love dogs.

Yes i know this and if you read my post early you would see that it mentions unethical breeders who do this for money, dont get me wrong i know that it can be costly to keep the dogs in tip top condition and showing costs but some people do exagerate to some extent, if there was anything wrong with my dogs i would dip into my pocket straight away. i undrstand people breeding dogs trying to stick to the breed standard and getting a healthy dog with minimal problems it's the unethical ones i can't stand.

And sadly they are the ones likely to amke money by avoiding the expenses of health tests travelling to far off studs or importing new blood, giving the best possible food and uprbringin etc  :(  And the people buying from them won't even realise until they have problems with their dog, and with average luck given the resilience of the species many will still be OK, so they may even recomend these breeders or sources to their freinds.

Frank I know someone who had a healthy bitch, her mum was healthy as was her mum (all bred by said friend) when she bred from this last bitch, she had a healthy litter of puppies, unfortantly though some had to come thoug ceserian and the bitch was lost of the operating table.  She had something like 8 healthy puppies to bring up, and to find perfect homes for them, after all she had lost the mother who she loved, these pups where all that she had left.  She has now sworn never to breed this breed again.

Ice queen that is a very sad story and i would'nt wish that to happen to anyone one espcially once you get a dog it becomes part of the family but thats the chance you take once you start to breed.  unfortanutely that is very sad.

I take your point Guest and agree with it as regards breeds with many whelping problems. IMHO one thing breeders with those breeds could do to improve their breed is to breed for easy self-whelping.

But then you say "I breed dogs and have never once had to have a bitch to the vet and Ive bred quite a few litters, all have been delivered with no problems."

My breed are easy usually whelpers, but the bitch visits the vet for a scan at 28 days. Then there is a home visit for a post-whelping check, and another at 48 hours for dew claw removal. The pups are tested for PSS at 6 weeks and because they run to big litters this is usually a home visit as well. In my breed it is usual to keep the pups to 12 weeks so that is two more visits for vaccinations. All told, the total veterinary cost is ~£1000, even if everything goes perfectly.

Jas if your total vets cost are 1000pounds and you sell your pups at 500 each,arent you going to come out on top? :)

I think what most people refer to when they say breeders make money is from when the female(hate the word bitch ;)) has been mated, to when the pups go to new homes.Health tests and all that excluded.from birth to new homes,the first things that spring to most peoples minds are food and vaccs,all the other stuff has to be done anyway,health checks etc. I dont think one should take into account the feeding etc. for the life of the female,because this has to be done anyway,pups or no pups :)

I explained in the other thread how my mums dog accidentally got pregnant(the male was supposed to be sterile!) she made a fair bit of money selling those pups,they were pure bred maltese,she fed them and mum on a raw diet and had them all vaccinated and health checked,this came to under 100 pounds,she sold them for 350 each,she loved those pups and cared for them beautifully. By the way she had her female spayed asap :)

Guest please dont hide behind the "guest" status,it does your cause no good! :( You dont have to fear coming out and saying what you think :) If you dont like the replies,you can always leave :)
You need to come back and back up your argument!

Rose I've said elsewhere that imo after the first litter good breeders will make a small profit on a litter in most breeds if all goes well, and that they shouldn't be so afraid of saying so. That small profit pays their work at a long, long way under minimum wage rates! :)

But you have to add stud fees, travel, food, wormers etc, new vetbed, washing & disinfecting supplies etc. The profits are very modest after all that. :)

I do agree about not adding in the cost of keeping the bitch. She is - or should be - a companion, not a puppy factory.

first litter good breeders will make a small profit on a litter in most breeds if all goes well, and that they shouldn't be so afraid of saying so

I have to agree,it seems that some breeders are ashamed to admit they might make some money on a litter :(
I wouldve thought that one would expect to at least make some money back after all the hard work raising a litter entails. After all "doing it for the love of the breed" isnt going to pay the costs :)

I make decent money at my job, but if i had to fork out all the money that some breeders have said it takes to raise a litter than i would be bankrupt and living in the streets :o  Somethin gjust doesnt add up here???

They might make a profit on the litter, but you NEVER make a profit going to dog shows, so the profits gone after your first champshow entry! :)

Ah but we are talking about making money (a living) from breeding dogs, so on that premise that it is a business then plant and materials all have to be taken into account, upkeep aand replacemnt of machinery etc would all be reconned in if it were a business.  As I said before a breeder defrays some of their additional costs from the sale of pups.  If they didn't they wouldn't in many cases be able to keep a line going. 

I would not be able to keep keep five dogs if I only wanted to own a pet, but my interest lies deeper than that.  I am also providing a service to new puppy owners by providing them the opportunity of buying a carefully bred and cared for typical example of the breed they have chosen to have.  Of this I am proud and anything less would be cheating them and the breed.

A puppy in most breeds costs less than a months salary and this has not changes sicne I bought my first puppy, and in relative terms may actually have gone down.  This compares rather well to other expenditure liek two weeks holiday abroad that many people now enjoy.

Brainless no offence :) but your posts are giving me a headache,i have real trouble trying to read what you are saying,your words are all bejingled :)

It is the time of night, have just edited :D

In short what I am trying to say that Yes a breeder may seem to make a profit on an individual litter as I have shown in my post showing one of my litters expenses, but don't make any money from their dog breeding activities because of the other costs involved. :D

Ahh thankyou :) i've gone back and read your post,now i understand what you were saying :) :D whereas before i had to guess,going by what the next word was and if that word was wrong,well then,i had no idea :p

Golly gosh i need to go to bed!! :o

Don't know how real typists type fast and get things right :D

That's because Brainless is partially-sighted, rose.

Definitely not talking about making a living at breeding! :) The profit is small and is liable to vanish into one litter that goes badly wrong. But I do think that too many dog breeders try to argue that they actually make a loss on breeding and produce fantastical cost sheets to 'prove' it. People simply don't believe such special pleading and imo with good reason.

I also have a problem with those who try to include showing their dogs in their breeding costs. Showing is a hobby like any other, and like any other hobby it costs money. You can fairly argue that the breeder who shows will in many cases know more about their breed and so will produce more typical and healthy pups, but at the heels of the hunt parents with a string of show wins are not going to produce 'better' pets than healthy and typical but unshown ones. And that is what the buyer is really interested in.

'The buyer' is generally interested in getting a puppy that will grow up to resemble the pictures or real examples of a breed that they've already seen. If the parents aren't close to the breed standard, then the pups won't be either. And everyone thinks their dog is perfect ... it takes an unbiased outsider's opinion to get to the truth. Which is where showing comes in. This is the best assessment we have of ensuring that the breeding stock will produce quality goods.

And yes, we are talking about making a living from breeding! The thread was started in response to another where a Guest asked about how to set up a business breeding weimaraners for a living. So all business costs have to be taken into account. This is why the people who produce the best puppies have outside jobs, to fund the breeding.

Showing is apart from being a hobby is the way that breeders assess and help maintain the quality fo the breeding stock, therby helping to keep the breed at least looking like it's breed.  We all know that the little mongrel in the dogs home will probably make as good a pet as any pedigree dog with a similar upbringing.

If we were car maunfuacturesrs you can bet your bottom dollar that the costs of shows advertising etc etc are all taken itno account when the inland revenue decide what is taxable income.

Breeders are naturally wary of being hassled by the powers that be for a perception of making monwy.

I think it was about two years ago that someone in the dog press listed what could perfectly legitimately be considered costs if you had a run in with inland revenue.  This included depreciation on your car, wear and tear on your house and the equipment used in caring for the dogs, part of the costs of computers etc etc.

The real costs to breeders are actually far in excess of what most people have listed.  If you think about it how many breeders would have a smaller house, car etc if they didn't breed???  Many forgo holidays that many take for granted as they can't afford the cost of having the dogs looked after.  Other than a day or two away with the dogs to a show like St Pats or World show I won't consider a holiday as I can't leave the dogs.  I am lucky having a fellow dog person live a few dooors up, and between her and my teenage offspring a say or two away can be sorted as they are pretty easy going dogs.

Any profit from a litter gets plied back into the dogs by proper breeders. The cost of one litter going badly wrong can never ever be recouped. A litter I had 4yrs ago went wrong, one vets bill was over thousand pounds, the other was £300 & something, a pup died & then there were more health issues with 2 pups that I`ve not included. Thats without phone calls, I never totaled it all up, might have had heart attack!!!
I know of some breeders who`ve lost all the litter at birth, that can never be recouped. It only needs happen once & unless you breed back to back you`ll never again be *in profit* or be able to break even.

Christine, Spain.
ps showing is what it says, you are showing what you are aiming for in the breed & coming as close as you can to what the standard of the breed should be like.

Guest, don't forget that included in the vet bills are the health tests for the puppies - both the routine check they have before they leave and also (in my breed) the BAER test which is essential before any pups are sold. Essential to PROPER breeders, that it. Puppy farmers don't bother.

I don't breed, but I see no-one has mentioned yet that, in the London area at least, vet bills of any sort seem to be considerably higher than in other parts of the country.  (I used to breed pedigree cats and have compared prices with other breeders).  That must surely have some bearing on the cost of puppies or loss of 'profit' for the breeder. 

Believe it or not, I actually once had a phone call from a lady who told me she wanted "to breed [cats] for a living".  I wonder if she turned to dogs after I told her what I thought of that!!!!!

Guest, I own an unexaggerated "natural" breed and (touching wood here) have never had any whelping problems BUT I have had bitches go down with eclampsia, have mastitis and have a uterine infection some weeks after whelping. These are things which can happen in any breed and will probably happen to any breeder at some stage. Nature is not always predictable and PROPER breeders prepare for these things, whilst hoping they don't happen, of course.
Another thing not taken into account is that PROPER breeders do not use the dog down the road, so when a mating does not produce any puppies, that's another £50.00 + in petrol costs down the drain, not to mention the time spent travelling.

At theend of the year I am likely making a journey from the South West to the Far North East to mate a maiden bitch, and will be traveling by Train.  Hate to think how much that will cost,a dn how many journeys I amy have to make.  Sods law it will be around Christmas time too.

Guest -it may be better if you dont "read between the lines" and assume that I breed from dogs that have health and whelping problems. I actually am in a breed who do NOT have many health problems and are, in the main, easy whelpers and good mothers. The vets bills to which I referred are the ones for making sure my dogs and puppies are properly health tested and regularly health checked. Obviously you do not take these precautions with your dogs, and do not even have your bitches checked post whelping. So who is the irresponsible breeder? Do not assume that I or anyone else have dogs who "cant mate or whelp without the intervention of man".
People who post as guests mainly have a genuine question. People such as you post as guests without joining do so because they like to stir up trouble, or have previously been members and have been removed. 

Hi guest why dont you register with CD

beacuse may be they are a member or someone we know of,and just stiring it up .

And may even have posted the original question

I dont know if any of you noticed but "guest" has worked out how to use the smilies which is something which I havent noticed many guest being able to use. 

gosh yes,a clue!! thomas-the-sherlock ;)

Just a natural talent it comes from having 3 kids :)

are you a thomasina as opposed to a thomas then?

Definately Thomas is my dog :)

i would definately think it is a member posting as a guest as thomas the spot said smillies it took me a while to do them to :) i suppose we may never no unless admin wants us to :)