Anybody had any experience of this?  If so, what did you think?

Yes we were recommended to feed our Bichon on this when we got him on June 1st last year.  I kept him on it for about 7 weeks but he developed skin problems so I changed it to another food.  I have since read that it is not really a good food but can't be 100% sure, no doubt someone else will give you better advice.

I wouldnt class it as a good food.Too many dogs develop terrible skin problems,gastric problems eating this food.Probaly because of all the additives,artificial colourings,flavourings,preservatives,by -products,meat derivatives,cereals etc. etc. etc. etc. ;)

well all my 6 are  on proplan perfromace and they are do well on it.two of them were wean on it from 4 weeks old on puppy

Having had a look at the label there are no animal derivitives in it!  The sample that I received had about 26% lamb as the main ingredient.  I am talking about the Pro Plan and not the other type you can get in the supermarkets called Purina One

Do you have the ingredients on hand,can you post them? Even the first 5-10 will do,if you can :)

We feed all our Siberians on Pro Plan with no complaints. One of the best foods we have used in over 10 years of owning Sibes.

Yes here are the ingredients and I got the percentage slightly wrong:

Ingredients

Lamb (19%), Rice (17%), Maize, Dehydrated poultry protein, Maize gluten, Animal fat, Maize flour, Digest, Beet pulp, Yeast, Fish oil, Calcium phosphate, Potassium chloride, Sodium chloride, Calcium carbonate, Minerals, L-Lysine. Copper (as Copper Sulphate) 12mg/g. Vitamin A 21000 IU/Kg, Vitamin D3 1600 IU/Kg, Vitamin E 280 mg/Kg, Vitamin C 70 mg/Kg. Antioxidant: Tocopherol rich extracts of natural origin.

Typical analysis

Protein 27.0%, Fat 17.0%, Ash 7.0%, Fibre 2.0%, Calcium 1.3%, Phosphorus 1.0%.

>Lamb (19%), Rice (17%), Maize, Dehydrated poultry protein, Maize gluten, Animal fat, Maize flour, Digest, Beet pulp, Yeast, Fish oil, Calcium phosphate, Potassium chloride, Sodium chloride, Calcium carbonate, Minerals, L-Lysine. Copper (as Copper Sulphate) 12mg/g. Vitamin A 21000 IU/Kg, Vitamin D3 1600 IU/Kg, Vitamin E 280 mg/Kg, Vitamin C 70 mg/Kg. Antioxidant: Tocopherol rich extracts of natural orig<

Before i start you have to remember that i am very,very fussy about what my dogs eat.I appreciate not everyone is like this and the things that bother me dont bother others :)

The ingredients that are bold are the ones that bother me. Maize- a high allergen filler. Dehy. poultry meal-it doesnt specify which animal it comes from,it could be any form of bird,it's not chicken,or else they would write chicken meal. MAize gluten- a by-product of maize :rolleyes: no nutritional value,other than to bulk up the food,another unnneccesary filler. Animal fat-this one scares me,this could be absolutely anything,the old restaurant grease from the human industry,the lard and scrapings from from the "glue factory" rendering plant,the fat from which animal(s)??maize flour-this food has alot of maize,the reason they are all split up like this is because if they were all lumped together maize would be the FIRST ingredient,it's just a clever labelling trick. Digest-this one scares me the most,the digest from what??

Yes it is slightly better than the supermarket stuff :o the bottom line is your feeding a predominately carnivorous animal a diet of 17% meat and 83% fillers and grains.It should be the other way round and even then i would lower the grain content :)

Dvnbiker,i bet you wished you hadnt asked now ;)  This is ofcourse just my opinion and observations.If you feel comfortable feeding this type of food, your dog likes it and does well on it,then feed it :)

Hi Rose,

I've not fed this food myself but have friends who swear by it and to be fair have dogs in excellent coat and physical condition and winning top honours in more than one breed in the show ring - although being honest I'm not sure which variety or combination of varieties they use.

Personally from the ingredients posted it has too much cereal content for my liking too BUT that's just my opinion - I'm anti maize/corn as fillers much more so than rice (and I'm no fan of that in high quantities  ;) )  I've fed several of the high end premium brands over the years and often found that at least one of our pack doesn't do too well on something that the others can thrive on or alternatively, one can thrive, a couple be "alright" and another look downright scraggy - so that means an immediate change obviously :P

Guess there's really never a definitive answer - dogs are as individual as we are :) - we can all only try our best, observe the results and stick with it or change depending on our dogs' overall health.  Teri  

>poultry meal-it doesnt specify which animal it comes from,it could be any form of bird,it's not chicken,or else they would write chicken meal.

Dictionary definition of poultry: chicken, duck, goose, turkey or guinea-fowl.

Personally I wouldn't mind any (or all) of those!
:)

JG it may say that in the dictionary but it doesnt mean thats what pet food manufactures put in their food . I got it straight from the horses mouth :) I questioned a rep from a  large pet food company about this very thing and she admitted that "no" she doesnt know what kind of poultry goes into poultry meal,poultry digest or poultry by-products,labelling the food this way also gives them plenty of rope as the ingredients can change from batch to batch,where as if it said chicken meal then it would have to be chicken in each and every batch and you can bet your bottom dollar that,that is what it would say on the bag as it would be a plus not a minus :)
Do you honestly think a middle range food such as proplan would put duck,goose,turkey or guinea fowl in their foods and then hide the fact by printing vague statements such as "poultry"?? Not to mention it would push the price through the roof!

I just love running into petfood reps in the pet stores,only takes a couple of questions to get them squirming,theyr'e like programmed robots running off the same shpeels to joe blo.They dont expect anyone to ask them complicated stuff that they have no idea what the answers are :D

So which type of poultry wouldn't you like used?  All the ones on JGs list seem good to me I suppose there may be some more obscure foreign birds but as you say not likely to turn up in these foods, BTBH I'm not sure that I can think of any bird from sparrow to albatross that my dogs would turn their noses up to :)

Rose, if it's any other bird than those mentioned (pheasant or pigeon, for example) then legally it would have to be listed as 'game'. Have a look at your butcher's licence - a separate licence is required to sell game as opposed to poultry.
:)

No Rose I dont wish I had never asked, the problem I have is I have two BCs.  They were both on Burns but the older one just doesnt seem to agree with it.  Hates it and will only eat it with naturediet and his coat just never looks good, it almost looks shaggy if you know what I mean. When I first got him he was on Bakers Complete and then I became more well versed in what was a good dog food i.e. dont buy it in a supermarket and tried Autarky which gave him the runs badly and then Burns.   He has been on Burns now for well over 6-12 months so I have certainly given it a good go.  My other one will eat anything so he's not a problem.  I was given some of the pro plan at Crufts and when I got home he couldnt wait to get into the bag and has actually been looking forward to his dinner for the first time it what seems like months which cant be a bad thing.  I have to say this whole food thing is so involved and the more knowledge I seem to gain the more confusing it all becomes.  I just want them to be on the same food (if possible) that they both thrive on and that they both really enjoy eating.  I certainly wouldnt want to eat food that I quite obviously didnt like and dont see why I should enforce this on my dogs.  I dont want to feed barf the whole idea just doesnt appeal to me so I want a good complete food.  Any recommendations?

Claire

Hi Dvnbiker :)

I'm sorry to hear about your dogs problems with the other food :( I can totally undersand you wanting to feed a food that your dogs wolf down and do well on,it warms your heart too see a full,healthy contented dog asleep infront of the fireplace,after just having done a perfect poop :D
I'm not saying dont feed purina,if your dogs thrive on it and eat it with gusto and your'e happy with it,then feed it :) Like i said earlier i am very fussy about what my dogs eat and if a company wont state what kind of "poultry" or "meat" they use then i will not use it.

I feed a small amount of dry food along with alot of raw meaty bones and homemade,cooked/raw.
The kibble i feed is called eaglepack holistic chicken,it has a little more grains than i would like,but they use "whole" grains such as brown rice and barley,but the other ingredients are top notch :) You can check it out at http://www.postalpets.co.uk They also have other varieties if one doesnt happen to agree with a dog :)

dvnbiker....

If your dog is actually looking forward to his dinner when you feed him Pro Plan I think he is answering the question for you!  

I dabbled in BARF for one meal with my dogs because Curtis - after being fed raw chicken wings - ended up at the vet with colitis, I have never had him at the vet with colitis on a complete food!   It's horses for courses, what suits one dog/owner might not suit another dog/owner.    Yes, ask for opinions but the biggest recommendation for a food product has to be your own dogs.

If you look closely at the ingredients you will find Sodium chloride in other words Salt
JUST like human food dog food does not require added Salt. DogS love salt hence the reason they lick your hands and they can get addicted to salt. the label is produced in such a way as to hide this. Salt is put into food as a cheep filler if you do salt  taste, taste a bit of dry dog food you be amazed at how salty some dog food is. Too much salt is bad for the heart . One other point about labelling why the company who produces this does just say salt -Jo     

Minerals are usually listed whether they have been added as extra or naturally occuring in one of the other ingredients, Jo.  Too much salt is indeed bad, but so would be too little :)

(Sodium chloride, Calcium carbonate, Minerals, L-Lysine. Copper (as Copper Sulphate) )
Then why list it twice .To be listed as a seperate item and not included as a mineral means it has been added as an ingerdeant rather than part of a natural  substance.-jo

I can't see it is listed twice.  If the ingredients did not contain enough sodium you would want them to add some wouldn't you?  They are not listing the percentage per gram so I don't see how we can tell if it is more than the desired amount.

Salt (1) is filler added to enhance palatability, it is listed as a separate item not classed under minerals (2) because it's added. Given all the education and public health warnings that Sid the Slug campaign has highlighted the over use of salt in pet foods cannot be taken lightly  It is possible for dog food to be made without adding salt to the food again your are looking at just a few good companies Salt is and always will be in both human and pet food used because its cheep and appeals to the additive traits of animals. Try the taste test you will be amazed -Jo  

Sorry I still don't see what you mean with your 1 and 2 I can only see it listed once -  as sodium chloride.  I'm not sure what you mean by filler either I take fillers to usually mean fibre, certainly something much more substantial in quantity that salt.  I would imagine salt in the amount you could call filling would be lethal!  I don't believe we know it has been added for palatability in this instance as sodium is an essential mineral so it may have been added to make up a shortfall.  I agree salt in excess is very bad but sodium is an essential requirement too hence it is always given in rehydration fluids.  I'm not sure that a taste test would be all that scientific but as I have never tasted this particular brand I can't comment but my dogs own food doesn't taste particularly salty.

I have freinds who use it, but I feel for the price you can get pproducts that are British with a better proportion of meat in them.

I think it's a good food too, the Salmon & Rice adult version has to be one of the quickest eaten foods with Mia & Curtis.  Although presently I have them on Nutro.  I would also recommend Arden Grange Salmon & Rice too...little to separate these 3 foods in my opinion.

Does anyone think that these high protein complete foods make the pups grow too quickly,(yes I know they have to have a good protein quota). My last litter was raised on Nutro, boy they were big pups at 8 weeks,the litter currently being born I havent decided what to feed them, the bitch is on Vitalin bitch diet along with some raw, I normally feed BARF, but would rather the pups go to new homes on a diet that is easier for people to handle,what does everyone think is best.I think Pro plan may be my choice unless anyone can think of anything better.

I have only raised one litter on Nutro, feeding their dam Nutro before she conceived, during her pregnancy & whelping, then raising the pups on it.    I did a repeat mating later & those pups just wouldn't take to it.

However back to the first litter, I thought the quality of the pups raised on Nutro was fantastic, they all had lovely bone & body whilst with me and I kept Mia on it as an adult.   She has always carried a healthy amount of body covering, she didn't grow fast at all, infact she is classed as as 'small-med' in my breed and if/when she is mated I will feed her & her pups Nutro.

Arden Grange is excellent and with the two ranges you ahve a choice of richness and protein fat levesl to suit.

I like the prestige which is 30%prot  and think the puppy too high, but the classic puppy is similar.  The junior is a good alternative for those prefering a bit less protein.  they ahve one of the highest meat contents of the premium ranges.

Are they arriving as we type Jenny ?  Hope all goes OK.

Yes theyve arrived 4 bitches, all doing well so far, keep your fingers crossed for them
Jenny B

Ingredients to avoid are listed here http://www.mordanna.com/dogfood/index.php?page=list1

The above link lists just about every ingredient found in pet foods and exactly WHAT they are,i think it is a must read for EVERYONE who feeds commercial foods, if you want to know exactly what is in the food you are feeding your dogs,be it good or bad :)

Definitions of dog food ingredients http://www.mordanna.com/dogfood/

I have to admit that while I do feed a larger proportion of complete foods than I do home cooked and raw, I don't believe in feeding a complete only - regardless of how good the quality (and I am a firm believer in quality).   Although completes have been around a long time and very popular with breeders for several years before becoming commonly used by the pet owning public, I think in time we will learn more and more reasons for (at the very least) feeding these diets in moderation. 
Sure, lots of dogs live to older age now than say 15, 20, 25 years ago but so also have cancers, liver, GI and pancreatic disorders become more common, also skin problems.  It may be coincidence or a direct relation to longer life spans but I'm inclined to think that as more advances are made in nutritional analysis, allergens and carcinogenics, evidence is going to point towards what *some* complete food manufacturers use in their bulking agents.  I hope I'm wrong but equally I hope more people begin to think of their dog's diets as they would their human families - if we are what we eat, then it's got to be important what we eat - right?  Regards, Teri

Hi again Rose,

Meant to add to the above that if we are what we eat, the same applies to our pets but they don't have the ability to say "this take's like cardboard and gives me heartburn"  :(

Regards, Teri :)
ps. just have to add that some folk are getting too darned good on the old links - I follow the same instructions and  ZILCH (well, most of the time anyway )

Teri watch and learn :D i'll use spaces to demonstrate,but when you do a proper link,do not use spaces and always remember to put http:// infront of everything,or else it wont work. Here goes.

[link]  text  [/link]  thats it :)

To do "here" link,only 1 space after the first link word,after that no more spaces.: [link(space) text] here [/link] 

Poultry meal: Note how in this product the source is not defined as "slaughtered poultry".The manufacturer does not disclose the species (or the mix of species) of the poultry used. The fowl can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter ), turkey, chicken, geese, buzzard, seagulls, misc. roadkill, birds euthanized at shelters and so on

Animal fat: Note that the animal source is not specified and is not required to originate from "slaughtered" animals. The rendered animals can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter ), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on.

Rose, you obviously didn't read this or you'd know about the source of the animal protein in UK pet foods.

Unless, of course, this roadkill etc was passed as fit for human consumption! ;)
:)

I really can't see major dog food manufacturers sending out gangs of people looking for roadkill!!...and Buzzards???

I think it takes a special kind of mind-set to consider that as being even a remote possibility, PeteT!

Hi Rose,

:D  I see what I keep forgetting to do :D  it's the forward slash in the last [link]  :rolleyes:

Now I'm not going to demonstrate just yet ;) that would be toooooo obvious if I got it wrong and I don't know how to do a "tearing my hair out by the roots" smiley - don't suppose you can tell me how to do one of them?  :P

Thanx, Teri

The site contains a lot of opinion on ingredients, Rose, but I cannot find any mention of the contributors qualifications, or interests in order to evaluate the opinions offered.

Incidentally 'digest' is defined as "a material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue. Digest is a palatability enhancer which can contain unpredictable parts from animals of unknown origin". Yum yum!

JG Purina,iams,science plan,eukanuba etc. etc are all U.S foods,so i think it's safe to say to say that everything i've said applies to these foods :)
Do you know what happens to the tonns and tonns and tonns of human by-products in Britain,that in EVERY other country are used in pet foods?? What about all the meat not fit for human consumption? As Isabel would say,it would be a crime to waste these things and not put them to good use I am really starting to question what is classed as "fit for human consumption"!!

Isabel :rolleyes: Lilian(site owner) has taken 4 years out of her life to compile this website,for no other reason than to help the average pet owner,EVERYTHING on her site is public knowledge,she just knows where to look and compiled eveything she found on one easy to read website,you do NOT need a science degree to get this info.,just alot of time and dedication! Isabel you and i both know it wouldnt matter to you if she had a hundred "qualifications"!!
You or i could get all the info stated on her website if we wanted to!

Human by-products!!!!!!!!!?

>What about all the meat not fit for human consumption? As Isabel would say,it would be a crime to waste these things and not put them to good use

I don't think I have ever suggested using food not fit for human consumption, although of course that is not the same as food not desired for human consumption.
I think it would help an awful lot if the person giving an opinion on a site like this one had a degree in a pertinent subject we have no idea that she has interpreted what she has gleaned correctly.  I'm surprised someone in eduction thinks so lightly of the value of it :). As it is, her opinion is worth no more than yours or mine.

*I think it would help an awful lot if the person giving an opinion on a site like this one had a degree in a...*

Long time ago I was at catering college, while I was there, there were quite a few men & a couple of women who wouldn`t be seeing 45 again!! They had to take the relevant qualifications to retain jobs they`d been apprenticed to & worked in since the age of 15, some 14. After our first yr we were more *qualified* than them, but we all knew they`d forgotten more than what we thought we knew....the ones that failed exams lost their jobs :(
It would be a very sad day indeed if people only listened to the ones with *degrees* or *qualifications*

Christine, Spain.

But if you worked along side them you were able to evaluate their knowledge, when reading web sites we are not able to do that with the author without being given information about the scope of their knowledge.  I often hear people talking about experience being worth more than a degree but in my experience the ones with degrees will rarely believe they know it all and infact will have a much better appreciation that in most subjects the learning process never finishes, their education has above all else enabled them to continually reassess new information and assimilate it something those that trained "on the job" sometimes have great difficulty with.

*but in my experience the ones with degrees will rarely believe they know it all and infact will have a much better appreciation that in most subjects the learning process never finishes,*
But there again Isabel, it`s only your *experiences* just like the person on the website. And we all have different experiences don`t we ?

Christine, Spain.

I agree Christine that is why I said her opinion was worth no more or less than mine.  My point is merely that if people are going to set up a web site like this I feel they should give some information about themselves in order for people to be able to establish the scope of their knowledge.  When publishing anything in a journal you would expect the author to at least give their qualifications and often a resume of their career unfortunately that sort of thing is totally bypassed on the internet.

The sites I go to which have a lot of very useful info have forums/boards where the site owners are more than happy to tell you all about themselves Isabel :) They are in contact on a daily basis with many of the members, not only online but phone as well. Not sure but by the looks of it she could be contacted on her forum/board.
The explanations she gives on reading pet food labels, additives/presertives etc is taken from US consumer agencies.

Christine, Spain.

I would prefer something a bit more upfront, you don't expect to write to an author in the Lancet to find out if he is a Doctor, Pharmacologist or what :)  I think it is normal to name sources too.
I don't know what a US consummer agency is.  Is it something appointed by government to keep an eye on things, presumably with a few suitably qualified experts on board or is it a group of like-minded individuals in which case they could be getting the wrong end of the stick too and passing it along :)

Oh I`m sure you can find all those things out yourself if you wanted to Isabel. But there again I don`t think you really want :)

Christine, Spain.