I have been reading through some of the answers on here and you always advise people to show their dogs to see if theyre good enough to get bred from but what if the judges always pick dogs in your breed that you dont think are healthy, for example, my breed is the bulldog and judges always seem to pick the short stocky dogs with exagerated features, whereas i prefer leggier bulldiogs that are healthier and fitter. My dogs wont win in the show ring but they are built much better than your average bulldog and better still the 3 bitches all whelp on their own 99% of the time! now thats rare for a lot of bulldog lines, so please someone tell me why i should listen to a show judge who has been tainted by whats in fashion and will overlook a healthier dog just because it is not so pleasing to their eye?

If anyone is going to breed theyre dog i would advise them the opposite DO NOT show your dog as a lot of judges are biased towards certain lines, colours and styles of dog, and what the judge likes isnt always the healthiest dog to breed from! I would advise anyone to have the relevant health tests done before breeding and only breed if they are outstandingly good results and the parents are good tempered and healthy dogs but dont for the life of you go by what a show judge says, they cannot see what is right in front of there eyes and that is all the unhealhty and over weight dogs, crufts is a prime example!

But every judge is different.

For example, in my family there are 3 judges, myself, my dad, and my grandad, and we all debate on which dog is better and why!

Every judge is different, otherwise the same dog would win all the time.

Got to agree that you do not always need a judge to tell you whether your dog is good enough to breed from.  My oldest is too spotty for showing and would be laughed out the ring if I ever showed her but it doesnt stop her producing top notch puppies ( got 2 CCs and a RCC to back this opinion up )although the stud dog obviously plays their part as well.  I knew even before I went to a dog show she was not good enough to show but can see no reason not to breed her as she is not producing deaf pups and I have only had 2 patchs and one blue eye which is of equal importance in my opinion.  I know there are those who disagree and I would certainly not use my stud dog on any bitch that would be disqualified in the show ring.  This is a conversation which regularly comes up. :)

Well guest, can I encourage you to join champdogs because this will turn into a lively debate, and it would be a pity for you not to be able to participate.

My two pennorth, for what it's worth is that judges are obliged to judge to the breed standard of whatever breed. So must select dogs that closely conform to that standard. Breeders should be aiming to breed to that same standard, otherwise, if they go off in their own direction, it is something else they are breeding.

Dawn R.

When people breed from dogs that don't conform to the standard we end up with dogs of all shapes and sizes that in the end look no better than cross breeds.
Guest,I think you have a very biased view because you don't show your dogs you consider all show dogs to be fat and unhealthy...very narrow minded don't you think
Archer

I am no expert, but I must admit after watching crufts I thought some not all of the dogs were overweight. I have a Labrador and I thought that the Labrador they had chosen as 'the best of the rest' was over weight and see better examples on walks.

LisaW, are you used to working labs?  Show labs, don't tend to be fat, just have more subbstance to them, making them appear fat without touching them.

Lisa
its not just about weight ...its about conformation.A fat dog of good construction can breed good pups.A fit dog of poor conformation cannot breed excellent breed examples
Archer

Spot on, Archer.

That is exactly why I said I was 'no expert' just a loving pet owner. Had a feeling a shouldn't have given my 'unproffessional ' point of view on this site.

oh comeon! some show dogs ARE too fat!!!!! not all,of course.but some are fat & flabby & unfit .
of course there are also lots of fat pet dogs,but id expect showing people to know better!

I feel you still need to show as that is where you will see the available dogs.  More often than not ist isn't the top winners that are going to produce but teh plainer anima;s wiothout major breed faults put to a really good sire will produce what you want.

A show gives you an opprotunity to view the available animals, otherwise how would you know which sire produces which kind of pups to which kind of bitches.

As long as your leggier bitches are still within the bred standard then your entitled to breed the style of buldog you feeol is ehalthier but that still fits the standard.  With luck you can weatyher fashion and othersw will eventually share your view if as you say your dogs have the advantage of health.

You could say that a similar thing happens in GSD and Staffs where there are opposite ends of breed type favoured, but funnily enoguh the ones to gain general favour at general shows are the ones that are middle of the road.  Breedeing is a process of evolution, and breeders like yoruself hoping to improve health shoudl work within the breed, join the breed clubs and committees and convince others of the validity of their ideas re health and form and then mo5re breeders will move towards a healthier less extreme animal which the changes made to the standartd by the Kennel club already give room to do.

There are many breeders in many breeds that have changed over the last decades who still adhere to the type they feel is correct,a nd fits the standard even if they don't win a top level no one can say their stock lacks merit, and they are prepared to wether the trends for the good of the breed and thankfully their stock is still there to help balnace things when others realise the breed hgas gone to far in a particular directipon.  this is shy difering priroties among priorities are a good thing (obviously health and soundness shoudl always be a priority).

Just wanted to add that shows are important to compare breeding stock.  the vast majority of breeders will agree which animals have merit and which do not, even if they all differ as to which ones woudl place highest.  After a seasons showing you will probably find that overall the judges will have placed yo7u about rigth (if your honest with yourself).  You will either find you are most often in the top of the classes, in the middle or mostly at the bottom.  That is how you end up with a blance of opion over time, especially if the judges are various breed specialists and allrounders.

I'm one of these people who don't feel that you have to show your dogs.  It's not in everyones interest so would never force that on anyone in my breed who wants to breed.  One thing that I would insist on is that they see as many dogs and talk to as many people in the breed as possible about their dogs and also their own dog and find out whether it is a good specimen of the breed.

I have seen many a dog in Pomeranian's who you wouldn't let them be seen dead in a show ring but put to a dog with the correct proportions etc. they've produced champions.  I feel that you have to look at the whole of the dog and it's assets, there isn't a single dog, or it's very rare that is perfect, you just make sure that what you dog lacks the dog that goes with it is perfect in that area.

You should also ensure that you do all the health tests on your breed that are necessary too.

One of my Spanish is too tall, but he's got a great head, body and most importantly a fantastic character, so hopefully one day he will be used with a line which produces smaller dogs.  He may not be show quality (in some people's eyes). although he has been placed at shows, but just because his legs are long I don't think that the rest of his attributes should be forgotten !

I like dog shows but I myself never show. I dont feel the need. My eldest bitch is a fine example of the breed and other owners Ive met ask me why I dont show her saying shed do very well.
My younger bitch on the other hand seems a little tall to me. Shes an absolute dream but I dont think shed do too well in the ring.But then who am I to judge.

<He may not be show quality (in some people's eyes). although he has been placed at shows, but just because his legs are long I don't think that the rest of his attributes should be forgotten !  >

LOL you could always stand him in a hole ;) & wear high heels when you show him

I'm amazed by some of the Cavaliers that win with the opposite of your dogs fault is too short in the leg for their height & weighing in at a lot more that the ideal 11-18 lbs in weight ! They make my little one who is 15 lbs in weight look like a leggy puppy ! not bad for a 4 1/2 year old. Problem is with the Cavaliers is there is no height advice & only the "ideal" weight One day I will find a show with a weight class that isn't the other end of the country !

Hi Guest,

Some people have a genuine eye for a good dog, know their lines inside and out - (not just ramble on about names but actually physically know what the dogs behind their own look like and what their individual virtues and failings are) and are able to be thoroughly objective in what they need to improve on in their own bitch.   Having said that, without seeing one's chosen breed en masse (within the constraints of the gene pool available of course ;) ) how can anyone "develop an eye" for their breed?  we need to learn  (and regardless of length of involvement we are ALL capable of learning) and so have to be able to have discussions with other enthusiasts of a breed and preferably also knowledgable stockmen of other breeds in order to weigh up the many different ways we each interpret a breed standard for our favoured breed. 

OK, it's not set in stone that a good breeder necessarily has to *participate* in dog showing, but surely one would be attending shows and preferably also breed specific seminars.

Why not join - you obviously have your own views and experiences and it would be interesting to discuss further.  Regards, Teri :)    

If no one showed dogs, breed standards would pass into long forgotten memory, and anyone could brred any dog looking like god only knows what, saying it is their personal preference.  Showing and breed standards give us a bench mark to strive for.  There will always be a variety of types within a breed, as people interpret the standard differently, or put different values on various aspects.  I do agree that extremes in some breeds are not necessarily desirable but surely the best route woudl be to join the breed clubs to discuss change and put your point across?  Then there is the media aspect.  Are you sure that the  dogs you consider unfit are?  Or are you being swept along with the media hype about pedigree dogs?  Pugs (one of my breeds)_ Are often singled out as being unhealthy, with the extreme short nose.  However my buinch happily exceercise with my Am Cockers, they are fit, muscled dogs who show, play and love lap sitting too, just what they were bred for.  But they are often portraied by the media as being barely able to breathe due to show breeders gong to extreme.

It occurs to me that a lot of people use the anti showing thing as an excuse simply to justify there own dogs being less than ideal.  I woudl never suggest that showing is for everyone, but if you have a deep interest in pedigree dogs, I  eel that you not only want to breed halthy, temperamently happy and stable animals,  but also ones who actually look lilke the breed they are meant to be.  Best way to measure this is by comparing with other, quality dogs of the same breed, ergo showing!
bye
Gwen

I'm one of those, who, having shown for more years than I've got sense, now just go to Crufts, our breed Championship Show, and the odd one or two selected shows in the year to 'keep my eye in'

At this stage of my life (not going to tell you my age) no, showing isn't really necessary, as I've already formed my own blueprint of my type.   Twenty years ago it was necessary for me to go - I'd changed breeds, and it took a while for me to see what my preferences were.   

I maybe made the odd mistake with choice of stud dog, as I didn't have the wide range of chatty friends in the breed that I have now!    Friends in the breed are crucial to know the real background of a dog who maybe take your eye in the ring.    We are lucky that we have excellent temperament in our own dogs - others are not so lucky, and that doesn't necessarily show up in the ring.

I now get much more delight in seeing my dogs work, but am confident that I am keeping breed type as far as possible as I have the 'showing years' under my belt.

Hope this helps

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I also do not think it is necessary to show. I find that I am able, when watching a class of dogs to pick out the top 3 in the line up nearly every time, ( not always in the right order) and that is in most breeds not just my own. That doesnt mean that I enjoy showing myself but that I have an eye for a good dog. That is what is important when breeding.
On another point some one made about putting a tall dog to a shorter line in the hope of finding the right hight in the pups, well I believe this is not the way to go about it, if a dog has a slight fault (and havn't they all!!) that it should be put to a dog that is as close to perfect in that particular point in order to correct in in the offspring.
Amos 

Got to agee with with the above posters.  As the years go by, show wins tend to become of less importance and one develops a cynical eye of the show world and its politics, particularly when it comes to variety judging.

As for conforming to the standard, there is so much left open to interpretation, some breeds have changed out of all recognition over the years.  It's often the dogs with some form of exaggeration which catches the judge's eye eg excessive coat in Beardies, topline/angulation in GSDs etc etc.

Julie

On one hand, I would agree that (other than working dogs) it is very difficult to get sufficient knowledge about bloodlines, health issues, available stud dogs and the quality of their progeny without being involved with showing.

However, on the other hand I have a lot of sympathy with a breeder (like the op) who wishes to move their stock away from the gross exageration required to successfully show some breeds. There are many whose conformation, size or coat have been significantly altered away from the original function and purpose.

The point about a fat dog of correct breed type breeding better progeny than a slim one of poor type is well made. However, i would be surprised if anyone who is happy to own a fat dog would have any conception of what a fully fit dog is physically capable of. Having seen and handled a number of show labs - yes they have more bone, yes they have more substance but they also carry much more fat! I have seen hundreds of labs working in the field, and it is extremely rare to see one whose working performance would be improved by the dog having more substance.

I think a fat bitch however correctly constructed underneath, would have difficulty maintaining a pregnancy even if she got in whelp in the first place.

I wonder how many pups are squashed by roly-poly dams?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I dont like shows because they are not a true reflection of any breed, especially in the variety judging ie- crufts, this I feel is fashion judging. As we all know the small breeds are very fashionable at the mo.

In my breed we didnt even get a mention on tv. Not that I'm bothered as I'd like to see the breed kept healthy by not over breeding.

How can shows not be a true reflection of a breed? I'm baffled why you would think that Julie. Can you enlarge upon that a bit please.

Dawn R.

You only have to look back at the history of any breed to see how they have changed to suit fashion, such as the King Charles, bull dogs and tail docking.
Also the breed standards are a load of old tripe cause a dog could be the best in breed and fail through the tail being held too high, for example.To me that shows a happy confidant dog but breed standards state different. Twaddle!!!!!!

<especially in the variety judging ie- crufts> ?

In your breed ie Leonburgers there were breed classes so what variety classes were you watching ? The only variety classes were in the YKC & Gamekeeper classes

The Leonburger was on the TV for as long(actually longer)than my friends Keeshond who was BOB, the TV only showed him having a good sha

If you don't have a breed standard what do you use to choose a puppy that actually looks like the breed it is supposed to be ?

The King Charles were altered BEFORE the KC was formed as it was fashionable for ladies pets to look more human hence them being bred with a shorter nose

But the point is, to use your illustration, if the dog s tail carriage is not correct, then it is not the best example of the breed becasue in that one respect it does not meet the standard!  Different faults are given different value according to the breed.  In both of my breed tail set and carriage, whilst completely different, are important parts of the standard.  I see so many dogs aroudn the streets and in for gorrming who only bear a passing resemblance to the breed they have been bought as being.  However, almost 100% of their owners have read a breed book (usually one of the very basic ones) and are convinced that theirs is a perfect emaple.  Without in depth knowledge and lots of practice it is very hard to see correct type, let alone the finer nuances of the breed.  Showing and  breed standards may not be perfect but without them any one could clalim anyting as being a good example.  People with pet bred dogs often have poor specimens anyway, adn poor means not only not conforming to the standrd, but also poor health as no health tests.  Lack of knowledge when breeding from these unsatisfactory animals, who are probably dearly loved and considered beautiful by the owners, leads to them being mated often to the nearest dog,  usually a pet bred one too, and more poor quality pups arrive, combing faults from both parents.  Thsoe who attempt a little forethougth often dont have the basics to know how to go about it, so they have a bitch with shorts legs, for example, so pick a very long legged stud - no the result is not likely to be correct leg length, but a mixed litter some leggy and some short legged (and god forbid, the odd one with long back legs and short front!)
bye
Gwen

How I agree Gwen.  Without a breed standard you do not have a breed you may have a localised type of dog (often how some breeds started) or the feral/pariah type when dogs are left to breed freely among themselves, and nature selects for surviavl traits as the majority won't reach maturity. 

Those who pooh pooh breed standards are not wanting to breed purebred dogs of a recognizable breed are they.  Staffords for example that are very poular.  If you start ignoring the proper earset and cariage, size, build etc, what do you get???  Just go to the local dogs home and you will see Mongrels with a passing resemblance to the breed. 

If there were no breeders who bred to a breed standard even these poor mongrely examples would cease to exist in a few generations.  the result would be what any tourist can see when they visit countries where there are a lot of feral and latchkey dogs.

We would then have lost the many and varied forms that we have bred the dog to be (I am sure there are those like the Vet Emma Milne who would like it to go this way).  Granted all we have left for the most part is the form of the breeds as in many cases their original function is no more or carried out by only a small proportion of the breed.  When one meets Norwegians who hunt with my breed they cannot comprehend why we keep them here and in the USA where they cannot hunt Moose/Elg as they view them as a hunting dog and that is it.  Many people admire the traits of a breed that have arisen as a result of it's original function, even though they do not wish to take part in these activites, same as someone who is interested in historical weapons but has no interest in learning to be a swordsman.

The showring is primarily a Forum for breeders and breed devotees to compare their stock.  The actual awards on any give day are only secondary and as has been said dependant on the judges interpretationa of the breed standards which are suffieciently broad in many respects to accomodate typical examples of a breed even if of differing style.  It is the consensus achieved over time that keeps a breed on an even keel and from becoming too exagerated, as well as where appropriate testing them for their fitness for purpose. I do admire the Scandinavian and other European systems where you cannot get a divergence into workign and show type.  In my own breed and untypical dog who hunts well can never become a Field Champion, it has to be graded Excellent at a conformation show.  Likewise the most beautiful show specimin can never get it's show title unless it gets a certain number of satisfactory awards at a hunting test or hunt.

Where a breed goes too much in one direction is usualy as a result of people using a fashionable dog too much or one of two peoples views and interpretations being allowed to dominate.  Now those who make a serious study of their breed are likely with time to form their own opinions within the constraints of the standard and thereby this tendency would be less.

So my answer has to be unequivocally that you cannot have Pedigree dogs without some means to compare them and a forum for breed lovers to thrash out what is needed to address health and other issues.  No breeder of any7 good stock can eve become so if they have no contact with the show or working side of their breed at all, even if it is historical or occasional, or through others showing or workign their stock.  the results have to be measured somehow, and being human we cannot do this in an unbiased way alone.

Well written Gwen & Barbara Sadly in our GSD rescue we see a lot of dogs bred without any regard to the breed standard

It is interesting Barbara about the Elkies as if you look at the Show BC & the working bred BC registered with the ISDS some KC only BC'sappear to be a different breed it is true, but then some are so like the working BC's you would be pushed to divide tham. My first male BC was quite a successful breed dog & in fact some of the top breeders thought they knew how he was bred(including Felix Coame & Joyce)when I showed him under them & in fact Felix told me he was surprised that I showed a dog by one of the Beagold stud dogs under him. I told them to check the catalogue for his breeding & they were without exception gob smacked that my Glen was "only an ISDS dog"(their words)with no KC breeding at all. He was a very successful trialling dog as well which goes to show that correctly bred dogs with no showing background in their breeding can be  successful in the show ring judged on the KC breed standard