Through this forum I would like to solicit some feedback on the following to further my understanding of what goes on !

My wife is new to this "sport", and we are probably a little niave. However, yesterday she returned disappointed from an Open show, and felt that the Judge had been "facey". Last night I recovered the catalogue from the bin, and realised that one of the other exhibits that she had been up against (There were only 3 in the class) was bred by the Judge. Also from the catalogue it was clear to see that, this was not the only link between this judge and exhibitor. To me this seems very unjust, as the judge will not be admitting that they bred the worst dog out of three !!

My questions are
a) Is a Judge allowed to judge a dog they bred if no longer owned by them ?
b) Is there a code of conduct that states either the exhibitor should have withdrawn, or the judge should have declined to judge the exhibit ?.
c) Should this have been brought to the steward or secretary's attention at the time ?
d) Should anything be reported now ?

I could understand this happening if the judge had changed since the schedule was printed, but this was not the case. My view (for what it's worth) is if this was any other sport it is like the manager of one of the teams also being the referee.

Any views or opionions ?

I think it is totally wrong to go under a judge who has bred the dog and in my opinion I personally would never go under a judge who owned the stud dog either.  I am aware in my own breed of judges who give CC's to dogs they have bred.  Needless to say they are big 'names' so get away with it but I would never give them a entry.  Not sure what the standing is on it.  I think that sometimes it is hard to avoid judges who have got some conection with your line especially in the breeds with lower numbers but breeders are a totally different matter. It will be very interesting to know if anyone does know the answer.

The KC rules prohibit  a dog being entered under it's breeder at all. It doesn't matter if it was breed 6 months or 10 years before the show

The judge & exhibitor are both in violation of the KC ruless & the judge should have refused to judge the dog

KC R&R F 3.66a(14) applies in this case & the KC should disqualify the dog.

You can contact the KC with a copy of the schedule & catalogue to point out the trangression of the above rule

The only difference is the IKC (Irish Kennel Club) rules allow you to
show under the person that bred your dog as long as they haven't had contact
with/lived with the dog for 12 months prior to the show....
This is of course only applicable if you are showing said dog in Southern Ireland

Hi MM,

>The judge & exhibitor are both in violation of the KC ruless & the judge should have refused to judge the dog<

According to the KC Rules & Regs exam, judges are not actually permitted to "refuse" to judge any dog except on the grounds of aggression.  The judge, if they recognised the dog, should have discreetly asked the exhibitor to withdraw however had a duty to judge the dog and leave any disqualification process in the hands of the KC.

Judges are fined for breaking KC rules - so even although this exhibitor should not have been entered under the judge (if indeed the judge was the actual breeder) the judge would have been in a real catch 22 situation :(

Regards, Teri

I asked a member of the disciplinary sub committee that sat on the Griffiths judging hearing & in fact was the chairperson & they were quite clear on this ruling in that the judge is obliged to judge to KC R&R & therefore to judge a dog that they had bred or had handled etc in the previous 12 months was in breach of KC rules & should have been brought to the attention of the secretary of the show, the ring steward & the exhibitor & the exhibitor given the opportunity to withdraw & this noted in the show incident register

Then if
1)the exhibitor then chose to continue to exhibit the dog only the exhibitor would have been fined etc

2)the exhibitor chose to withdraw the dog from the show then it should still be reported via the incident register but no action would be taken

3)however if the judge saw fit not to report the matter at all & continued to judge the class including the incorrectly entered dog, then the Judge & exhibitor would be breaking the KC R&R & they would both be fined etc

Hi again :)

Typical of the KC - so many R&R added, amended, fiddled with for the heck of it that they can't keep track :P

I attended a KC Rules & Regs under the direction and assessment of Aitken Johnston and put to him the following scenario - which was based on actual circumstances but thankfully was prevented from being put to the test as the exhibitor mentioned to the judge before the day of the show that they were entered ;) :-

Q. If when judging a novice exhibitor enters the ring with a dog boarded, prepared for exhibition and physically handled by the judge within 12 months of the date of show, should the judge excuse the dog?
A.  Judge should judge the dog.  The matter will be dealt with as appropriate by the KC.

Now, the entire audience - made up of judges at various levels who needed the latest KC (toilet) paper - was instructed this was the case and not open for debate :rolleyes: because it was the "Rule" :P

The R&R exam is a multiple choice paper - those who did not tick the box in line with the answer given above failed that particular question  - so am I :D - but then so also is the KC!

Teri

LOLOLOLOL Case of do as we say & not as we do I presume I did raise this with the KC committee member & it all falls under the discretionary bit of the KC R&R so it's a win win situation for them ! & a no win situation for the judge !

However being a society secretary myself I have sent back entires when I have known they have been made in breach of the KC R&R with a covering letter LOL one exhibitor rang up most annoyed as she thought it was the best way to win at Dog Shows !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you SURE the dog in question was bred by the Judge? If so it is against KC rules and should be reported to them, though I'm suprised it wasn't spotted at the time. Or did the judge breed the stud dog of the dog in question, as this is allowed. Trouble is, if the dog did come from their stock somewhere along the line, then that is the type that they are likely to like, and so will place it highly. It's only a matter of opinion really, and, with respect, a judge is more likely to know which is a good dog based on their years of expereince in the breed than someone new to showing. Hang in there, if your dog IS good, it WILL get the recognition it deserves, just takes a bit of perserverance!

1/It is not allowed to show a dog actually bred by the judge but you can you can show under a judge who owns the sire
2/ the entry should never have been submitted in the first place
3/ it is possible to make a complaint at the time if you had wanted
4/yes you can still complain..however it will cost you to submit a complaint(about £35 I think) and it probably isn't worth it IMO
I would chalk this up to experience....yes some judges are 'facey' but all I do is make a note of their names and not enter under them again.
The other thing to consider is that although not right if she bred the dog since the dog was of her 'type' she may well have decided the dog was the best etc.
Archer

Was the person judging the original one to judge.  Beilieve that you can show under a judge who's bred the dog if there is a change of judge, but you are definitely not allowed to if this is the original stated judge. 

If it was me I'd complain, but you'd have to complain about the show organisers and not the person entered as they are the one's who have accepted the entry and shouldn't have.

Actually it is the judge & the exhibitor who have done the wrong thing Malcolm Griffiths judged a dog he had kennelled within the last 12 months & both he & the exhibitor were up before the KC & were fined

As a judge, you should not know who the dogs are, you do not have access to a catalogue and unless you know the handler you would not know any of the dogs parentage, and therefore it is not the responsibility of the judge to know, the judge will only find out after when he/she looks at the catalogue.

You are telling me i would not recognise a dog I bred ? or had had say in boarding kennels I owned(not that i do own any)? & that I should pretend that I don't recognize the owners who bought the dog either ?

This is the real world Sharon & yes ideally a judge should not know the names of thedogs & exhibitors entered under them, but if you are a respeonsible breeder you should keep in contact with the owners & puppies

The KC rules don't say you should not know the details but that you should not see the catalogue for a breed show. I've seen at least one dog win a CC because the judge thought it was it's older full brother & even put the brothers name on the CC & my friend who was stewarding was secretly laughing at the judge when the exhibitor had to get the correct name put on the CC by the judge & the incorrect one crossed out ! Good job you get a conformation one from the KC with the right details on it (if you are lucky I had to sent one back three times before they got it right )

It depends I could essily not recognise the owner of a dog I bred as I see so many people just having a look at the breed sthat their faces get mixed up with the ones who have actually ahd a pup from me, so I woudl find it easy not to recognise one of my ex pups as even were it to look familiar I would assume it was of similar ancestry, but ours is a small gen pool.  Thankfully with a memory for faces like I have (non existent) it is as well I have no aspirations to judge :D  A busy kennel owner would also not perhaps recognise a boarder.  I know that Meg Purnell Carpenter would not recognise our Import (thoughit is more than a year), as she doesn't actually do the day to work in the Quarantine section.

Well I don't breed now & any puppies I bred will now be at Rainbow Bridge, but I did once enter my Champion Bitch at a show were her breeder was judging & someone objected what they had not noticed was she was only in the Champion Stakes & Veteran Stakes so was eligible to be entered !

It wasn't that many years ago (I think about 10 - but then I have a memory like Brainless :D ) that the KC first introduced the rule against showing under the dog's breeder.  I should imagine *most* breeder/judges were more than happy about it but no doubt there have been a few champions over the years who have gained their titles being judged by Mr, Mrs & Miss N E Breeder :D

Can't please 'em all :P

Teri

LOLOLOLOL I can think of several in the bred by I.M.A.CC-Judge class;)

Thanks for such a prompt and comprehensive response - it all makes for interesting reading.

Just to pick up on one of the questions raised:  Are you SURE the dog in question was bred by the Judge?

I am certainly lead to believe so from the catalogue entry, in that the first affix was identical to the affix shown for the Judge in both the schedule and catalogue, and the breeder was stated as being a partnership that included the Judge. Some of the other exhibits for the same competitor were sired by the Judge's dog.

It seems so pointless to me in that
a) The Judge's reputation is tarnished. (NB. This could already be the case as there were only 16 entries for a 5 class competition for a top 10 breed !!)
b) The offending exhibitor is given a potentially wrong impression of their dog
c) Other competitors feel that an injustice may have occurred

We'll put it down to experience - we won't show under this Judge again, we'll pay closer attention to the catalogue during the show, and we'll buy a copy of the current R&Rs.

I t will ahve in the catalogue the name of the breeder.  It is possible for breeders to ahve seperate intersts in an affix, al being able to use it but not breeding dogs in their own right so that in this case the dog may have been bred solely by someone who also has an interest in the affix.

Certainly if the judges name appears as breeder (even if in partnetship) then teh rules have been breached.

Don't buy the current one as a new one will be out in July for £1.50 you can buy just the bit that covers showing rules n regs Being a show society Sec I get a free full version each year ;)

>Don't buy the current one as a new one will be out in July<

Yeah, and the customary string of amendments will start being dispatched just after it's gone to print :D :D :D  The irony is that new exhibitors and judges probably are more au fait with the most current ones than those who have been judging and exhibiting for years because the more recently they have researched the info or attended the ever increasing number of seminars the more up-to-date the R&R information actually is.

I'm sure MM as with most if not ALL show secretaries must feel their heads bursting to the point of explosion having to keep fully up with everything the KC "tweaks" and yet trying to keep calm repeatedly explaining same to those attending the show - whether as officials or exhibitors.  And that's just as an aside to running the actual show :rolleyes: on the day (+ all the prep for months before it )

So to all Show Managers and Show Secretaries, you each have my respect AND sympathy!
Regards, Teri ;)

I recently found out how much show managers do, lets just say I don't thik I would want to do all that work on a volentry basis!  Would rather walk dogs volentry, at least thats enjoyable!! :D

ROFLMAO actually the Chief Steward at an obedience show has a worse job that the show secretary as you are not allowed to do anything at the show other than sort out any problems or dispute & walk around with the Red Book open at the G regs LOLOL

When they changed one of the tests in 2004 we had an exhibitor who thought the change was in force immediately instead of for shows after 1st July Had a half an hour arguement & the exhibitor went off muttering re the KC I put the matter in the incident book & passed it on the the KC The exhibitor got a letter from KC very polite(I got a copy)sort of saying "get the facts straight & read changes more carefully"

Now last year another obedience show had an all knowing chief steward & chief stay steward both wanted to do the stays under the pre July 2004 regs & it ended up with one of them ringing me to confirm what they thought-they were very miffed when I quoted the full exercise details from the Red Book. Their Cheief Steward & secretary hadn't even brought the book with them :O

Hi Rox,

The Committees of show societies as a general rule do a sterling job and much of how much personal time and effort they put into organising all manner of events for exhibitors is rarely recognised - not out of selfishness, simply because only those having served on dog show committes or closely associated with someone who has have an idea about all the forward planning to organise events, then the added hard graft on the evening before or morning of the show or seminar of setting everything up, attending to hospitality of judges, meeting / greeting / answering countless queries of exhibitors, taking care of parking arrangements, organising or supervising catering, selling raffle tickets, filling in for stewards at the last moment and then - when the show is over - they have to dismantle everything again and tidy up :(  It's a HUGE job and done for nothing more than the love of being around dogs and perhaps some self-satisfaction at an event well done - although IME sadly they probably receive more complaints than congratulations :rolleyes:      

The compliments though always stay with the commitee, they make sure they remember them and forget the complaints (except the ones they take on board to improve the show.

I have experianced abit of running a show froma commitee side, from being the "have to go with parents on commitee so help set up, clear down, sell raffel tickets etc" when I was younger and when I wanted to go to the show but only lift was early! its a long day I know for all of them.  Personal time is amazing they put in.  And putting up with phone calls at all times of the day about the show, one secretary had a phone call at about 10:30 one night, then next morning at 7:30.  Both times she was in bed.  Putting up with that is being an angel.  I got annoyed when request for scheduals came though for show my dads on commitee when it disturbed my homework!

Not sure what I'm letting myself in for as I have been asked to join a commitee and accepted.  NOw just got to wait till their next commitee meeting to see if the current commiteewill have me!!!  Very soon I will find the truth of the behind the scenes more from at commitee meetings!

Hi again Rox,

>Not sure what I'm letting myself in for as I have been asked to join a commitee and accepted.  NOw just got to wait till their next commitee meeting to see if the current commiteewill have me!!!  Very soon I will find the truth of the behind the scenes more from at commitee meetings!<

Good on you - at least you have SOME notion of what's ahead which is a hang of a lot more than many ;)  Hope it works out for you!

Teri

Hi uncletomcobbly,
It's good that you want to learn more of the ins and outs of how to go about showing without falling foul of the rules ;)  but as there are an awful lot of them and are frequently revised it's not always possible to keep track of everything.  If in doubt about something it's worth checking with the Chief Steward or better still Show Secretary on the day - they will be briefed on the most recent changes which may apply :)
I note you're relatively new to this hobby so try and focus on the positive aspects - I know from personal experience it's not always easy but if you see your first few years as primarily a social event with like minded doggy folks and enjoy learning how best to train, groom, handle and basically present your dog(s) to their best you will find it much more fun and will be more likely to stick with it.  It's very easy to get jaded with stories from disgruntled exhibitors putting newer people like yourself off and that's a great shame :(  Established exhibitors and breeders NEED people like you to further the interest in their breed so try and keep up-beat, interested and away from politics etc - tricky sometimes, but not impossible :P

Regards Teri :)

Hi

I may be wrong but I thought that the 'no showing under the breeder rule' had a time clause in it ? - I think it's something like 2 years, after this time you are allowed to show your dog under it's breeder - I'm pretty certain I've been to shows and seen this happen ( but then again I could be having one of my senior moments ).

Yvonne

At a show last year, we mistakenly went under our breeder but were allowed to carry on because it was just more than 12 months since we had her.   We wouldn't do it again though as it would have made it very awkward if we'd won.  

There is no time limit & hasn't been for a long time about entering under the breeder it is against KC rules even if it is 10 years since the Judge bred the dog & the 1 months only applie to handling, boarding etc

KC R&R F 3.65a A dog may be disqualified by the General Committee from any award, whether an objection has been lodged or not, if proved amougst other things to have been

F 3.65a(14) Registered or recorded as having been bred by the scheduled Judge. This shall not apply to a judge appointed in an emergency

I would suggest that anyone who is showing their dogs to invest £1.50 in the F Regs booklet as there does seem to have been a misunderstanding by a ew people on here & as a cross section of exhibitors it is alarming as everyone who shows signs the entry form to say they understand & will abide by the KC rules

As a Show Society Secretary & Obedience Chief Stweard for my sins I have to spend a lot of time making sure I am upto date with the rule cahnges

No that is how it used to be, but about five years ago a total ban of showing under the breeder came in.  A good idea but in soem numerically small breeds (The Cavills and the Toveri finnish Spitz come to mind) it would mean when the biggest breeder in the breed judges there is nothing for them to judge.

Now if you added to that any dog by the judges stud, or a judge that had bought a dog from the exhibitor then you would have no breed specialist judges at all :D

I have shown and will be showing under the owner of my Ch bitches sire.  The first time when she was yougn and on one CC at a non ticket show she made her BOB.  On the next occasion at our club Open show (even though I know she loves her dearly personally as a character and for being her boys baby) she put her third in Open bitch as that is what she felt she deserved on the day. 

For this I admired her, so am making the effort to show under her at her first CC appointment in Scotland (normally Stafford is my nothrnmost limit), thoguh I won't be taking my Champion just her daughter. 

I am confident she will put me up or down as she sees fit against the other dogs entered on the day, based on how they are on that day, not any past record or ideas formed while watching them in the ring while showing herself.

I also feel sure she won't be swayed one way or another by what others might think because we have a connection (though in our breed we are connected pretty much to every breed judge).

It can work against an exhibitor showign under someone connected to the exhibit.  the judge may well be more aware of any faults that their breeding has and be more inclined to penalise them, or a weak minded judge may actually put a dog lower for fear of people thinking them favouring their own breeding.

Hi Yvonne,

I think I may just know the specific show which confused you ;)  A club show, right?  A bitch was shown and won it's class under the male judge but the bitch was bred by his wife - permissable in fact because HE has no stated interest in the Affix so ironically the rule did not apply and the other rules about boarding didn't come into it either because more than 12 months had lapsed since the dog left the "breeder's" (and his) home!

There's always ways round things it would seem ......

Regards, Teri :)

You guessed the show right :D  - glad I was'nt just imagining it LOL

Yvonne

I may be wrong but I thought that the 'no showing under the breeder rule' had a time clause in it ? - I think it's something like 2 years, after this time you are allowed to show your dog under it's breeder - I'm pretty certain I've been to shows and seen this happen

Sorry Sarah but there is no time limit & no one can show a dog under it's breeder if the breeder is the scheduled judge

Time limit or not, I wouldn't consider going under my breeder (mistakenly done in the past) which is why we're not going to Crufts next year as my breeders mother is the judge.