I am actually doing this one for a friend as she has bought
a lovely spaniel. Its just a pup. Watching me showing my
dog has got her to wondering if she should show her pup.
She spoke to the breeder the other day and they told her
that unless her dog was blue roan, golden or black it would
not do very well.
So I thought I would ask, as some of you may give a
better answer. Is this colour excepted in the show ring?
Her pup is white, with chocolate, and chocolate ticks
(I think its called), also alittle tan on her muzzle and
above the eye. She is a pretty little thing and is very loved.
Trouble is my friend keeps asking me questions and I tell her I
know lots about my own breed but not cockers.
So tell me can she show her pup with the hope to win,
or not. Are these marks considered mismarks,
which someone else told her.
Also is their a cocker spaniel society? Would it be a good
idea for her to contact them for advice?
Nutkin.

Her pup is a chocolate (or some may say liver) roan and tan. It is an acceptable colour for a cocker, whether it would do well depends on how well it meets the rest of the standard of course but I do not see why she could not enjoy showing her anyway.

Hi Nutkin

In theory there is no such thing as a mismarked particolour Cocker Spaniel but in practice, some judges do consider things like white ears, lack of eye patches to be mismarked. If this little Cocker has chocolate ears & chocolate markings (as well as the tan spots) around her eyes, then she could certainly not be considered to be mismarked though she would be a very unusual colour for the show ring. I have seen very few chocolate/liver roan & tans being shown & the last notable winner of this colour would have to be at least 50 years ago now. It's certainly true that blacks, blue roans & golds win more in the show ring but then these are numerically popular colours - there are lots of them about! Less popular colours can indeed do very well, but they have to be top quality - Cockers are a highly competitive breed with a lot of very good dogs being shown. There's no reason why your friend couldn't have some fun at exemption shows & maybe some smaller open shows to begin with, but unless her bitch is really good, then she probably won't make much impression at the more competitive shows.
There are many Cocker Spaniel Breed Clubs, some regional & a couple based on colour (Particolour Club & Solid Cocker Assoc). There is also the Cocker Spaniel Club which is the parent club of the breed. Your friend might also want to consider joining Cockers UK, an email group for Cocker lovers (show people & pet owners all welcome)

HTH

Jane

Nutkin

Jane is right - in theory your friends girl, if she has the conformation - ie the correct physical attributes for the breed, she should have as much chance at showing as any other colour entrant. I show a blue boy and an Orange Roan and the number of times I hear - ooooooh he's nice "For an Orange" - As Jane says - there are more the blues, blacks and golds around and so there are more of a high standard. The the less common colours are often presented in the ring when they do not have the necessary attributes. All colours are associated with certain traits which people tend to expect in that colour. Oranges are often lighter boned and not well coloured and can have thin coats, Tan's just don't seem to appeal and Chocolate/liver coats are hard to keep. Having said that - the other colours also have their difficulties too - blues the colour and coat varies so much and they can be skittish, blacks have a really thick coat which is hard to keep and reds can be temperamental - all these statements are generalisations and owners with those colours will all argue against them so in defence - my blue boy is skittish but my Orange boy is very strongly boned and has a terrific coat and colour.

There is no such thing as "Should be shown" though. If your friend "wants" to have a go then she should go to some local open or even champ shows and have a look. Go to Ringcraft and see how her girl gets on there and enter some open shows. That will give her an idea of whether both she and her girl enjoy it and if her girl has any chance.

I regularly see people at shows who never get placed - unless there are four or less in the class - but they do it as they enjoy it so much.

hth

Pam n the boys

l colours are associated with certain traits which people tend to expect in that colour>

Mmmm .... not sure I agree with you on this Pam :-) Personally I have found that there is so much variation in the breed that it is impossible to generalise about particular colours, though I also have heard people saying condescendingly that Dog X "is nice for an orange/black & white etc " These aren't necessarily the sort of people I would respect though :-) I know you were only speaking generally but you would be shot down in flames if you said some of these things at a Cocker judging seminar:D Some of the characteristics you mention aren't really colour related - they stem from particular breeding lines used eg the skittish temperament you mention comes from a particular well-used stud dog. Blues descending from different lines don't tend to have this temperament. Similarly fine bone is something found in all colours depending on the breeding - I've judged many more fine-boned blues than I have oranges. In fact a lot of the oranges I have judged have been rather heavy boned & a little coarse - this is simply a reflection on the breeding lines used not the colour.

Some people may well have preconceived ideas about what they expect a particular colour to be like, but often these ideas are based on limited experience or they just take on board what they have been told by other people. I guess this might explain some of the judging we see though :D

Jane

Hi Jane

I didn't put my point across very well coz what you've said was the point I was trying to make. People make generalisations about colours based on what they have seen and then expect it in the others they see of that colour. What I tried to show with the ref's to Jasp and Bud's was that sometimes it's true and others it's not:D The "well used stud dog" reference is so obvious in Jasp;) In the cases where it's true though the dog could be of any colour it just so happens to be that it is a blue/orange for example that you are looking at at that time and so people believe it's true of that colour and so perpetuate the belief:(

Bud got a BPIB recently and a lovely critique that said something like - "So delighted to see such a good Orange". I have also had several people say you'll not do well with an Orange - but we're sticking in there:D Bud does have many positive aspects of a good cocker - he does have good bone, is well built - nothing fine about him lol and a coat to die for - for an orange anyway - lol.

I too have seen other colours with fine bone, bad coat, faded coats highly strung etc etc I t is interesting to see the way the judging can go at times though - but it's still fun and that's the whole point:D (imho anyway - :D)

Love

Pam n the boys

PS will you be at Leeds in July? We will - can't not when it's only 15 mins dowm the road;)

Oh right Pam - I see what you were saying now :-) We had the same thing as you with Buddy when we were showing our black & white girl - comments to the effect that we were brave showing this colour etc etc. We didn't take any notice & did pretty well with her - she probably even did better than she deserved under some judges (the ones that really like black & whites), so it's all swings & roundabouts :-)

Andrew will be at Leeds but I will probably be on puppy sitting duties, all going well. One of these days, I might get to Leeds - everyone keeps telling me what a lovely venue it is!

Jane

oooooh Jane you must let me know how the expected puppy plans go;) It'll be nice to see Andrew again.

Pam n co:D

Thanks for your answers. I will pass them onto
my friend.
Her pup is not a roan by any means, it is very white,
but with chocolate patches on which are quite dark,
and little tiny choc marks, her head is all chocolate but
with tan on muzzle and over eyes, plus a white stripe
down her head blending into her muzzle. She is very
pretty. It is a shame that no other colours seem to do
well except the golds, blacks. Her mother was blue roan
and father was chocolate roan. So it seems strange to
think her mother is blue roan, and this colour has come
out of her.
As I said I will pass on the info.
Nutkin

Ah so this pup could be a chocolate, white and tan - chocolate tricolours are even more rare than the roans. It's not really strange that her parents were blue roan & chocolate roan.The blue roan dam carries the recessive chocolate gene to be able to produce chocolate progeny & without getting too technical, both parents also carry the gene for absence of ticking (ie no roan markings) & also the gene for tan markings. It's normal coat colour genetics but as Cockers have more colours than most breeds, it can get quite complicated :-)

It's perfectly possible to win with the minority colours if they are good enough - there have been show champions in almost all the less popular colours but the depth of quality is in the numerically popular colours so it stands to reason they win more.

Jane

So then what do you look for in a cocker?
I assume teeth correct bite. Straight back,
Legs forward and not turned. What else should
be looked for as you are quite right she may be
pretty but must have sound conformation.
Nutkin

Yes all the things you mention also a compact body (not long in the back) with a short, wide loin & a big ribcage, decent length of neck (but not over long), good layback of shoulder, good hind angulation (but again not too much), neat round feet, good strong bone (not spindly). Basically a Cocker should be a "big" dog in a small package, ie built on a sturdy frame for a small dog & it's essentially a breed where moderation in everything is required. The head is quite important (or should be) with tight dark eyes - hazel eye colour is perfectly acceptable in liver pigmented dogs (though some tend to very light, almost greenish eyes which is not desirable). The head should be balanced with a decent stop between foreface & skull, a nice square muzzle (not fine & snipy) The skull shouldn't be as domed as an American Cocker nor should the eyes be as round. Coat should be flat & silky with a reasonable amount of feathering on the legs & under the body (though puppies are often shown with some soft puppy coat which is gradually stripped out as the dog gets older) Movement should be sound & true (though many are not :-) ) & it's important that a Cocker displays the merry, tail-constantly-wagging temperament it's famed for (though again quite a few do not!)

That's about all I can think of for now :-)

Jane

Thanks Jane
I found that very helpful. I have made a note
to give to my friend. I think she should have a go.
I am going around for coffee tomorrow so will give
her all this info.
Many thanks Nutkin