My boy, so I'm told, is a perfect example of his breed. He has been to see his breeder again when I picked up our second pup from them and he has met several people that show/breed his breed, who are so taken with him *very proud*

They all say,"what a shame you didn't show him as he is a good example of the old fashioned breed" and what we need to put back the origin and size into the breed! Must say, I have seen some of the recent examples and they are an insult to the original French breed :(

He has always been a "pet". I know that if I considered it he would have to have DNA for CSNB (a must in my breed) and also his hips would have to be scored, albeit the lady that wants his service knows his pedigree and says that she would consider him without hip score as she knows his last 4 heritage.

I am very reluctant to do this and probably won't. But what would the ramifications be if I did? Ie, in his temperament? He is sooo laid back and gorgous, he lives currently with a spayed 7 yr old bitch and a half sister of 11 weeks :D

I need to make an objectional decision before I am asked again next week, but my gut instinct is NO, NO ,NO!!!!!!

He was never meant to be anything other than a pet, albeit he always had good potential as a show dog, I suppose I could always change my mind in a few yrs time if I reconsidered?

It may not change him at all or on the other hand he may beome much more interested in bitches, may leg lift inappropriately when he smells bitches in season, and possibley become less tolerant of other males.

Leaving it til later may result in a dog that doesn't ever mate a bitch or may result in a dog that will.

You just never know, but a clue would be sht his Father and other male relatives who have been used at stud are like???

I think you mean "objective" decision  or are you just a nark on the booze (stop inhaling the darn Rescue Remedy :D )  IMHO (1) you have to decide if YOU think his character will change - because apart from subtle nuances in his nature that you have probably already picked up on, it takes personal knowledge plus a leap of faith to determine whether he'll change much and, if so, to a degree that it's a problem for you.  (2) take your breeder's advice - do they think he, specifically him rather than say a litter mate, close relative, has genuinely something to offer to the breed in general and if so on what lines & *specific* bitches.  Would he help keep a desirable trait in your breeder's line that he/she would value retaining.  Years down the road you may well want his "type" again and only achieve that by assisting in maintaining his line. 
FWIW, one of my boy's has been used 3 times - hasn't made one iota of difference to his character except for the slight benefit that he stopped howling at the girls' seasons for 3 weeks at a time - just gets a whole lot louder at the right period :P   Just some of my ramblings to mull over based on my own dogs - no doubt many thoughts to come from elsewhere, Teri :)

What type of dog is he. Just really really nosey

[quote]
He has always been a "pet". I know that if I considered it he would have to have DNA for CSNB (a must in my breed) and also his hips would have to be scored, albeit the lady that wants his service knows his pedigree and says that she would consider him without hip score as she knows his last 4 heritage.[unquote]

Well whoever said they would use him unscored is obviously not anybody very reputable. The British Briard Club and The Briard Association both insist that puppies should come from Hip Scored parents.
Anybody that is willing to breed contrary to breed club rules is obviously not too worried about the breed.

To then state that they know his heritage means NOTHING! 2 GREAT hip scores can (and have) produced high hip scores. If this person knows otherwise then we obviously need to rewrite everything that some of the worlds greatest geneticists have been saying.

[quote] They all say,"what a shame you didn't show him as he is a good example of the old fashioned breed" and what we need to put back the origin and size into the breed! Must say, I have seen some of the recent examples and they are an insult to the original French breed [unquote]

May i also suggest you have a look at the ORIGINAL french Briard standards http://www.briardworld.com/conformation/france1897.html. Yes a substantial dog but with a height limit of only 25 1/2 inches!!!
In Fact even the most current French standard says males should be 26 3/4 (Reviewed in 1954). (smaller than UK standard)
I would love to know why people say "what we need to put back the origin and size into the breed", when in fact the breed was actually smaller than it is now!!!!!!!

hanstrip...who said he was bigger?  I can't read it anywhere, where it says he is big, good size can also be small!

Believe it or not hanstrips, I'm not completely ignorent when it comes to my breed!!!

The entire reason that I got involved and fell in love with the breed was because my French step mother had Briards/showed and bred Briards for many, many years in France. So I am under no illusions.

Am fully aware of hip scores and was repeating what the person said to me on this subject and it was her opinion, where did I say it was mine????  She has been in the breed for 25 yrs and although this doesn't make her a paragon of virtue when it comes to the breed, she is not doing too badly in my and others HO. If I took on the huge responsibility of studding him, I would make sure that all of the relevant health checks were done, whether it was a BBC BBA requirement or not. Perhaps you could enlighten me some more, if you feel it necessary, I'm sure me, a mere novice and many other breeders/fanatics would just love to be educated by your good self on the future genetics and rights/wrongs for the good of the dogs.

Another point, I was "looking" as you like to phrase it, at the original French standard in France, long before I had ever seen a British bred Briard. So I knew what I wanted before I got my beloved boy. And contrary to your opinion, every French bred Briard that I have had the good fortune to meet has been considerably more substantial than most British bred ones. Perhaps you are thinking of the other Briard like French sheep/ cattle dog, the Labret, (small looking Briards?) I was talking to my breeders the other day and they are concerned that the breed is getting smaller and smaller now, which is why they are taking their bitches to France and Belgium for stud, as in their words, "we seem to be getting further and further away from the origin".

The pictures that I have seen of the French Briard in the 1940/50's depicts them as considerably different in stature than they are today, their legs were longer, wolf like in stature and with a much shorter, wirey coat and a longer face. Better built to do the job they were bred to do.

I find your post offensive, presumptious and  arrogant :(  As a breeder, I realise/hope that you just want the best for the breed as everybody else does but there are ways of speaking to people and this obviously is one of your weaker points.  I posted this, as there are a lot of people on here who's views I respect and you are certainly not one of them. When I need advice on Briards there are many other people that are only too willing to advise and guide me. Perhaps it is you that is the font of all knowledge, in which case, the French and highly experienced other breeders here,  have been getting it wrong for years!

For everybody else who has kindly posted on this subject and presumed nothing ;)

I've had a chat with my breeder about this and he has given me some more food for thought and I'll keep you posted if we decide to go ahead........or not :)

Well that is a very interesting post as it also makes me quite angry when Briards are being discussed and people make statements like

[quote]what we need to put back the origin and size into the breed![unquote]

What we need is to follow the Breed Standard and not some Breeders! The Breed Standard is here for one reason, it not here to be rewritten because some breeders do not know how to get the balance!!

[quote]and highly experienced other breeders here,  have been getting it wrong for years[unquote]

Yes, you hit the nail on the head, indeed certain highly 'experienced' breeders have been getting it wrong for years and that is why people need to take time to interpert the breed standard as it is, albeit the size has gone up over the years, it is now time to 'stop, look and listen' if may use that quote.

It is time to ensure that our Briard is a 'Rustic Dog, agile, muscular build and well proportioned, with lively and alert behaviour, neither aggressive nor fearful.' The empasis being on Well Proportioned.  These dogs with long legs that bumble around are not what Briards are about and the many French and European Briards that I have met certainly do not fall into that classification.

Thank God for those breeders that will not be bullied into submission by the few that got it wrong!!

[quote]every French bred Briard that I have had the good fortune to meet has been considerably more substantial than most British bred ones[unquote]

Can you define substantial?

[quote]their legs were longer[unquote]

There must be some confusion here between Substantial and Height? Just making them higher on their legs does not make them more substantial.

[quote]I would make sure that all of the relevant health checks were done[unquote]

For that I will applaud you, however why would you even consider a 'breeder' that does not?? I guess it is based on the advise you get from your Breeder?

[quote]Must say, I have seen some of the recent examples and they are an insult to the original French breed[unquote]

Yes, funny enough so have I! :-)

Briards, like any other breed of dog, are here to be discussed :)

And I quote 

>what we need to put back the origin and size into the breed!<

  somebody elses opinion that I dared to repeat on here! Well I am sorry! I couldn't agree more,

>What we need is to follow the Breed Standard and not some Breeders<

Which is why I sourced my particular dog from a breeder that adheres as closely to the "breed standard" a francais!!!!

>It is time to ensure that our Briard is a 'Rustic Dog, agile, muscular build and well proportioned, with lively and alert behaviour, neither aggressive nor fearful.<

Describes my dogs perfectly

I disagree with you, if you bother to look back at the original breed some 70 yrs ago, they did "bumble about with long legs". Not today however, I see 4 genuine French bred Briards from Champion lines in their Country of origin on a regular basis and although they do not have the long legs that you describe they are considerably more or a substantial dog than 80% of British bred ones.

My breeders were one of the first to have a Briard in this country in the 1960's and I would consider it an insult to them to say that they were bullied into submission by anybody

Definition of substantial: I'm not talking about height but about substance. Do you really want me to describe a French judges acceptions?? Or a British one? Why is it presumed that height is the issue here?? Again, please don't patronise me, height and body ratio does not compute.

Nowhere did I say that I was going to allow my boy to breed and if I do, it will be my decision. I will of course take into account my breeders advice, as afterall he has considerable experience and is the Chairman of the BBC and him and his wife are respected judges.

If I were you, I would reserve judgement on what you think my boy is like and in future, keep your well thought opinions to yourself until you are more factually aware. :)