Hi, Five weeks ago my husband and I got a Collie cross dog from a rescue home, he is approximately 8 - 15 months old.  During the day whilst at work, we shut him in the kitchen, using a child's stair gate, as there is no door.  He is very good some of the time, and never chews anything, thank goodness, but he does mess in the kitchen fairly often.  He can sometimes go a whole day without doing anything, and I always praise him for this, giving treats, but other days he will mess two or three times during the day.  He is left from 9.00 - 12 midday, when I return and give him a short walk, and then from 1pm until anywhere between 3pm and 5pm (husband works shifts).  He is walked at least four times every day, morning, lunch time, 5pm and around 10pm.  He's very good overnight, but this is because we had to give in and allow him to sleep in our bedroom with us, which I don't mind him doing because he behaves very well.  We did used to put him in the kitchen overnight, but he messed every single night without fail, and upon seeking advice, we were told to put him back in the bedroom.  I think one of the reasons we are still having this problem is because  particularly on a morning walk Toby pays more attention to trying to chase birds (which I'm hoping he'll grow out of) and is not interested in going to the toilet at all, except for maybe a small wee or two.  Having said that, even if he does go to the toilet, he will still strain back at home to produce a little present for us upon our return from work.  He is only left at home on his own 3 out of 7 days.  He is a very fussy dog, and needs constant attention.  I would be grateful for any advice, particularly as to whether he may 'grow out' or 'get used' to this situation at all.  Of note, he has plenty of toys to play with, which we only give him when we leave the house, but he pays no attention to them whatsoever, choosing only to play with them when we're with him!

It may help to train him to 'go' on command, as he is doing what you want use a word and reward after. It should then be possible to persuade him to do what is needed if there is anything in there. It is also very useful before long car journys etc.

You dont say when you are feeding him. We find that 2 meals a day produce 2 poos per day unless there are a lot of titbits given or a very long walk, so we kind of know what to expect and when.

Sounds to me like this has nothing to do whatsoever with needing to go or not going when given the opportunity. This sounds very much like distress causing him to mess himself. If he can go that long without emptying when you are at home, why would he mess when you are not there? Rescue dogs often suffer with separation anxiety and you have only had him a short time. I have been through this twice already with other dogs who are fine now, and am going through it at this moment with a collie I have had for a month. He has to sleep in my room at night and has a sitter during the day, although I work part time so I only leave him for a few hours.

I have found the only real cure for sep. anx. is time. It could take up to a year for him to stop panicking when you leave him. Make sure you never tell him off for messing, it will only make him stress more. If there is no one who can look after him while you are out, it may take longer for him to recover, but he will get through it. It does seem like a long time to be left for a rescue dog, but if you have no choice he will have to make do. At least you have given him a nice home.

When I first got my latest rescue, I couldn't even shut a door on him without him messing himself. Now he can cope downstairs for up to 2 hours alone. I'm sure your dog will be ok, just give him time to settle in.

Good luck,

Claire

Thank you for those replies.  In response to his feeding question, we feed him two cups of dried food (mixed with a little water) in the morning, and one cup in the evening, usually around 6pm.  The other day my husband took him for his walk in the morning, and he did two large poos, but upon returning home and being shut in the kitchen for just a few minutes whilst my husband got ready for work, Toby messed again in the kitchen, but this time his poo was rock hard, with blood stains, so I fear that he's really straining himself to go, which is worrying.

Yep it is definately seperation that id the problem. I dont have hudge experience of this but it may be worth trying rescue remady if you havnt already. May just take the edge off of it.

I currently have a 12 month Dobe here whose owners left him in an RSPCA home last November and he messed  and uri*nated in his kennel with great regularity.  He is getting cleaner but has lost all the house training he may have had as a young pup.  I take him out-side regulary - try to do it hourly and praise and reward when he "goes" and he is getting better and is now clean and dry during the day - if I could get out of bed and take him out first before any of the others he might even be clean overnight but that is not pratical as my old and getting incontinent old lady has to be first outside

With your boy I think you will have to treat him as a totally un-house-trained pup.  If you were at home you would take him out at a minimum on an hourly basis, after every feed, sleep, game or whenever he started looking at the floor.  As you are out for most of the day this will take longer and it is best to ignore any accidents.

You say you praise him when he goes the whole day without doing anything - if you get to the end of the day and praise him he will have no idea what it is for.  When do you feed him and do you take him outside after his meals - dogs frequently eliminate very soon after eating so if you exercise him and then feed him just before you go to work then this could be part of the cause

Thanks Kerioak.  I do feed him in a morning just before we leave for work, as I thought it would be best to give him something to 'distract' him for a while as we're leaving, as he's no interest in his toys at all.  But unless I got up and fed him at about 6am, then there's no way I can feed him before he goes on a walk, as my husband takes him for a morning walk at 7.00am.  We can't leave the walk until much later as we both have to be at work.  I don't want to be feeding him that early as he sleeps in the bedroom with us, and as soon as he gets disturbs he bothers both of us until we get up, and 6am is a little too early for me every morning!  Particularly as I work nights some days, and don't get to bed until 1.00am on times.  The other problem, as I mentioned earlier, is that when he goes on his walks, particularly in the morning, he doesn't pay any attention to anything except chasing birds, and sometimes doesn't go to the toilet at all, then inevitably messes in the kitchen.  It's a horrible thing for him to have, and I feel so much for him when he follows us around everywhere, and both my husband and I try to give him lots of fuss and attention on times, but making him go to his bed at other times, so as he doesn't take our attention for granted.  It's hard getting the balance right, there's so many things to take into account.  As you can probably tell, I'm not an experienced dog owner!

Try feeding him about 15 minutes before you leave and then take him outside in the garden for a few minutes to give him chance to "go" or if you don't have a garden then just take him out on the lead so he does not get chance to chase anything

We do have a garden, but unfortunately we used to put him in the dog kennel out there during the day before we decided to bring him inside (It was too cold for him) so now he feels frightened each time we take him near the garden.  I've tried playing with him out there, but haven't done it often enough yet to get him used to it.  When we take him for a walk he is on his lead all the time (otherwise we'd never get him to come back to us - another part of training still in progress!), but he's just constantly walking with his ears pricked up, listening for any 'rustling' in the trees suggesting a bird, and trying to dart off (nearly pulling me over with him) whenever a bird flies near him.  When we did let him off the lead once the daft thing tried to chase birds that were flying way above him!  He just seems so excited by his walks that he sees them as 'playtime' as opposed to 'toilet time'.  We try to make sure that we don't bring him back in as soon as he goes to the toilet (read in a book that you shouldn't do that), but sometimes it takes him so long to go that we have no choice but to come back home due to time schedules.  We're not always at work, don't get me wrong, my husband is at home 2 days out of 7, and I another two days (the weekends) so he often has nice long walks, but is still very excited by them - I guess that's still the pup in him.  I will try feeding him just 15 minutes earlier though, and see if that helps.  Thanks - will let you know!  (Any ideas on how to calm him down on walks would be most appreciated!)

<(Any ideas on how to calm him down on walks would be most appreciated!) >

I understand Dr Who is returning - borrow the Tardis and skip a few years into the future when maturity should have fixed this particular problem :D

A few years?!  Crikey, I was rather hoping he'd grow out of his 'puppy' phase a bit earlier than that!  Oh well!  Some good news though, he didn't mess at all yesterday, so I guess we're doing something right.  I keep a note of whether he is good or not throughout the week, and on checking today I see that he's been good 8 times, and messed 8 times!  How's that for consistency?!

I agree with treating him like an untrained pup.  Have you thought of purchasing a crate for the kitchen?  Often, a dog with SA is more comfortable in a confined/safe place than an entire room.

As far as calming down on walks...that takes time.  ;)  If you're wanting him to calm down so he'll go to the toilet instead of running after birds you'd need to cut out the walks and go strictly for toilet.  Find a spot you want him to go (same spot every morning), walk him to it, stand still and in a quiet voice tell him 'toilet' or 'potty'...whatever word you want to use.  Wait until he goes, praise him like you won the lottery, treat and take him in the house. 

Dogs with SA do much better when they're put on a schedule.  Everything is done at a certain time each day.  Feeding, walking, playing, etc.  They come to know what to expect and when. 

Thanks for that Mr Spock.  We do take him along the canal very regularly, he has a good pattern of walks at the same time each day, but I've not tried waiting with him in the same spot until he 'goes', so we'll try that in future.  Another problem I have with him is his poor tail.  It's red raw and really angry looking on the end of his tail.  He's often licking it clean (blood gets everywhere in our house as he never stop wagging his tail!), but the vet told us to stop him from doing that if possible, as his tongue is rough and will cause more damage.  It's so bad now that he's yelping three or four times a day, whenever his tail hits anything solid.  I really feel for him but don't know what to do to help.  If you tell him to stop licking he simply starts again a few minutes later, and I'm sure he's doing it when we're at work, and possibly even biting it making it worse, and of course he's always licking himself at night and I'm reluctant to shout his name out as I'm often waking up my husband with a start! (as he normally sleeps soundly through any noise - where as the dog licking drives me up the wall!)

Have you considered an Elizabethan collar or similar for him, to stop him licking it at night at least?

I would phone your vet and ask if there's any type of topical ointment you could use that 1. wouldn't burn when you put it on an open wound and 2. had an inhibitive taste.  I'm not sure it they make such a thing but it would be worth a go if they do.  It may also just be a stress reaction, he's obviously stressed ;) , and may stop as he gains more confidence in your home.  I'm sure you want to figure out something until that time comes...phone your vet and ask what they suggest. 

I mentioned a collar to the vet, but he didn't seem to think it was a good idea for some reason(?), and he didn't mention any ointment.  His only suggestion was that 'it will get better, but perhaps not for six weeks or so'.  I can't bear to hear him yelping all day for six weeks, I feel so sorry for him.  He is obviously stressed, and I feel guilty because I think we must be stressing him out all the more when we have to leave him for work, but surely people can have a dog and work too?  Can't they?!  Or am I being unreasonable keeping a dog when we both work?  I'm feeling guilty now because we have to go food shopping tonight, and that will mean keeping him shut up again until we get back - but what other option do we have?  We're not off out every night by any means, but I'm starting to feel that we're making his anxiety worse.

I would crate train him my X breed bitch would pee whenever ever she was left on her own but never when she had the other dogs as company. I think she was very scared of being dumped & left alone again. She was around 7-9 years old when I rescued her & she did come round in the end. I have a huge indoor kennel & when I had my late collies they would go in of their own accord as they were fed in the crate.

As to his tail have you thought of any homoeopathic treatment Silicea 12x & Calendula ointment might help as well as Arnica 4x

There is also wound powder that is used on horses where they have cuts etc that cannot be stitched

You could also try some Skullcap & Valarian drops to relieve the stress & tension as well as doing T Touch Massage

Thank you moonmaiden, I'll have a look into those products.  Re the crate, I have thought of this but I'm worried he won't want to use it once he knows he's going to be shut in there, as we have enough difficulty getting him to go into the kitchen already, as he knows that this usually means that the door is going to be shut.  I guess I'm worried about stressing him further.  He does sleep in his bed upstairs next to our bed during the night, but that is the only time that I've seen him sitting comfortably somewhere that he could call 'his own'.  Other than that he just sits in a specific corner of the room.

What you can do is make it his place of safety I fed my BC's in theirs & if I left them(on a very rare occassion)they had their special treats & toys that they only got if the door was going to be closed. These were stuffed Kongs that they spent ages licking the filling out of & ended up not even noticing if I was there or not. A friend had to leave her GSD bitch in her out door kennel when she went to work when her father was too ill to pop round & let her out. She did the filled kongs & feeding balls thing & now her bitch going to her kennel wagging her tail waiting for the kongs etc in fact she even goes to her kennel on weekends in the hope of having her toys & the food

You could try some basic obedience with him including stays & build that up until you can go out of sight & return to him. It is difficult to advise over the net but what obedience training does is build a bond of trust between the dog & handler so that any anxiety he might have about you disapppearing forever will eventually fade in his memory as he will be conditioned to you coming back after being absent for a variable amount of time

I would never advocate simply locking a dog in a crate simply ti house train or prevent soiling in the house, it is away of ensuring that your dog has his own safe space to retreat to as & when he needs it as well as an aid to house training

I hope you don't think I'm being dismissive when I say this, but I've tried everything you've mentioned about his toys!  He has absolutely no interest in them whatsoever - UNLESS we're about.  He'll happily sit and play with his ball/Kong/chewing toy for hours when we're sat next to him, but I can see upon returning from work that he's not so much as touched his toys, as they are all sat in the same place I put them!  I give him treats in the kitchen and he gets fed there too.  Are there any other things I could distract him with?  I did feed him as we were leaving, so he didn't watch us leave, but then I've been told to try to feed him before his walk, not afterwards, to help him go to the toilet when he's out!  I don't know what to do for the best!  My husband has been back to him today at lunch, and although he didn't mess all day yesterday, he's messed again today, and I can't anything that we did differently this time morning compared to yesterday - it's like he just picks and chooses when he's stressed!

I would not feed him before he is left & then the kong which can be stuffed with special treats & if he is hungry he will eat what is in the Kong

I had to teach my rescue GSD as she had no idea what a ball was for even though her orevious owners had told our rescue lady she played footie with the kids Now she has a large boomer that she plays footie dribbling with on her own & has a kong stuffed with part of her food for the day stuffed inside it, she has lost her two playmates when my collies died & so I spend more time playing with her. I also put some of her food(shes a piggy)in a reward toy that delivers dry food when played with

Have you thought of going to a dog club so you can learn the training techniques for teaching stays which will build confident in you with him.  Most people think of training clubs being for people who do competitive obedience, but they are not & lots do "pet"obediencewith a view to producing better behaved dogs & owners who have control over their dogs

It will not be an easy learning curve as you don't know what he has experienced. but it will come right & you have to work on the relationship. It could be that the only reaction he ever got from his first owners was when he had made a mess so even though the reaction he got may have been anger(not from you)it was still a reaction & so it became a learned behaviour. I hope I am right in thinking if he has poohed indoors you do not react & just clean it up not saying anything to him ?

Is there anything in the UK called Second Skin?  It's a liquid bandage...after reading MM's post I wonder if that might work. 

Hi Mr Spock

We have a similar sounding product - it's called "New Skin" - which may not be as effective as the one you're referring to.  I don't think "New Skin" would be any use on a wagging tail - more as a temporary solution to a cut pad etc :(

Regards, Teri

Hi Moonmaiden.  No we don't scold him when he messes, we simply give him a friendly stroke and clean it up.  He knows when he's done wrong though because if my husband gets to him before I do he will lay down on the floor and lower his head, refusing to look at him.  I realise that makes it sound like my husband smacks him, but he doesn't (unless it's really needed, ie, he's chewed his way through a sock or such like - he may well get a tap on the nose then!!), so perhaps the people that used to have him scolded him and smacked him when he'd messed?  He'd messed twice again yesterday, so it's definitely swings and roundabouts.  Today my husband is off work, and tomorrow, but we still put him in the kitchen sometimes, so he understands that it doesn't always mean that we're leaving the house when he's in there, as my husband will then just sit in the living room and Toby can see him through the stair gates.  Is this the right thing to be doing do you think?  I wonder whether we should just fuss him as much as possible when we are there, as he certainly acts like he needs it!

If it is SA, do try a DAP diffuser, available from your vet. It is plugged in like an air freshener and exudes pheromones a bitch would when she has young puppies. This take the edge off anxiety for a dog, opinions vary but I have been thrilled with the effect it had on my dog around fireworks time!
It takes about 3-7 days to start working, and must be left plugged in all the time near where the dog lays for best effects.

We have a very long living room and Banya lies all over the place, but it still worked very well :)

What I would also suggest is getting him used to being a little bit alone when you are at home but making it pleasant for hiim. So, if you are in the kitche preparing supper, he can go in the nearest room (hall?) behind a child gate, with a tasty chewy stuffed kong or similar. Hopefully he would settle for a few minutes and then you could bring him back in to your presence before he gets anxious. Gradually you can build up the time but it will take time.
You may also like to invest in a rescue book, one by Gwen Bailey and one by Carol Price, I believe they are both called "The Rescue Dog". They go into problems such as SA and how to deal with them with rescues in mind.

Lindsay
X

For his tail it may be worth trying Aloe gel. It dosent matter if he licks it off as it will work from the inside as well. It stopped my lab having to have his tail docked, just because it helps speed up the healing process and it was healing faster than he could split it open.

Keeley...

Fussing over him while you're home 'as much as possible' will just make it worse when you leave again.  A lot of the problems with SA stem from a lack of confidence, very common in rescued dogs.  I'm sorry, I can't see the other posts as I type this, but didn't you mention that he's not crazy about toys?  If that's the case, doing some obedience work with him would  help boost his confidence. 

Mr Spock,

No, he's not crazy about his toys, or at least not when we're not with him.  He'll happily sit and play with his toys when he's laid down by our feet, but not when we put them out in the kitchen for him when we leave.  Even though we keep certain toys just for when he's on his own.  So, how often should we be fussing him?  I know it's a daft question but I feel like I'm not being very nice if I don't pay him attention when we are at home, especially if he's just had two or three hours on his own, probably bored to tears!

Ah yes, I'm sorry...that's what it's called here as well 'New Skin'. 

You should of course be encouraging your dog to toilet in your own Garden, should he go when out then you should pick it up and then bin it (when you find a bin, another reason to encourage them to go at home :D).  some of mine are a real pain and wait until I am out to go to the toilet, and then I have to walk along with stinky poo bags and five dogs :D :D

Bluebell - what is aloe gel?  I may be being thick here, but haven't heard of it before (as mentioned above - not an experienced dog owner!).  I'd like to try something, anything to stop him from being in pain with his tail.  I'm fairly sure now that he must be biting it when we're out or in bed, as I thought I heard him 'nibbling' last night, but except for shouting at him I'm at a loss as to how to stop him.  The vet mentioned putting a sock on his tail but within seconds Toby would have the sock off and would be chewing it!!

Brainless - Unfortunately (my own mistake) due to putting Toby in the garden initially in his kennel when we went to work, he now does not like the idea of going in the garden AT ALL, for fear that we're going to put him back in his kennel.  I'm trying to get him more used to the garden (as god knows I'd love to just be able to pop him out there for the toilet at 6.30am, instead of having to put his lead on and walk him round near the back door with my dressing gown on like this morning!!! - what a sight!!), but it's taking time, and unfortunately I don't have 24/7 to devote to him.  I'll keep trying when I can though.

One of muine refused to go at home for years, and when she had a litter and wasn't going out for walks she waited several days before she would go!!!  She still doesn't go at home when she knows she can hang on until we go for a walk.  soem are just like that, but it is much better if they go at home, as you can imagine how much fun it is poop scooping after five :D

I sympathise!  One is enough, and I don't even wanna go into what it was like when Toby was ill and had diarrhoea!! Yuk!