<Are you on commission MM> I thought you had left

I cant believe just how out of hand this discussion has become.  There are much worse things happening in this world that need to be worried about than Mary Ray doing heelwork to music.  Why cant we all appreciate each other's point of view.  personally I would never show as I dont like the way some people treat their dogs as commodoties instead of dogs.  I enjoy doing agility and if I could start flyball I would because my dogs love that sort of thing.  There will be those people who would disagree and I can appreciate that but I dont want to come on a discussion board with suppposed 'dog lovers' having a go at each other.  Surely this isnt what this board is about!

I agree it's gone haywire! It started out with a casual comment by someone that they didn't really like DWD and all the flak started flying! Yes, it's very clever, just as competitive obedience and agility and all the other things are clever, but it doesn't mean people all have to like it, does it? It's acceptable for people to not like the idea of showing - why can't the same courtesy be extended to those who think the same about DWD?

>Don't tell me the Setter is a working gundog ! & the Giant Schnauzer is a fully trained protection dog

Of course not - but I bet they could be if the owners wanted.

Were Mary's dogs bred from working stock or from (horrors!) show-bred stock (which you say have no function)?

Jeangenie,

Very much off thread (and possibly worthy of a seperate thread) but the setter looked far too much dog to be able to work with the kind of speed and stamina the pointer/setter working fans require. Most of the working ES, I've seen are about half his size. Much less coat as well. I'm always intrigued why show gundog judges feel that a very long coat is any benefit to a working dog. He was an attractive dog, but not my idea of a worker.

The Schnauzer did at least look the part, I was quite taken with him.

Many canine disciplines may seem rather naff to those not interested.  I am of the opinion that anything that fosters the canine human bond and can be enjoyed with yoru dog is worth doing.  many who would find Formalised Obedience training not to their tastes (and doesn't suit many breeds of dog either), and who are not fit enough for Agility, can enjoy training with their dogs by teaching tricks if you like. 

Most of the moves I have seen are the kind that two dogs playing with each other would indulge in, play bowing weaving in and out, and boxing on their hindlegs and lots of twisting and turning while wrestling with each others.  the dogs and handlers lok to be ahving losts of fun in the less when I ahve seen less polished examples of heelwork to Music/Canine Freestyle.

I do feel there should maybe be rules about keeping the moves in line with what is natural for the dog, with as little time on two legs as possible.

He might not be very good at it ;), but I bet he could be trained to have a bash at it if his owners wanted to. Moonmaiden was a tad harsh saying that being a showdog rules an animal out of the 'useful' stakes.

well put dvnbiker

At least those dogs are serving a purpose, not just performing tricks for an audience.  I also do not believe those dogs "love" it either, they are trained to obey commands.  They are told to do them and they do, because thats what they have been accustomed to doing, usually getting a reward afterwards.

chloe.
Dog showing has its ups and downs, but there certainly isnt any movements like dogs on hind legs, forced to walk upright etc... it must be incredibly stressfull on their hips.  The showing scene is also beneficial even to a pet dog, handling on a table is very handy when you go to the vet!  (except in Willis's case! :D) feeling a every part of your dog is an excellent way of catching any problems early, and of course the grooming is essential.  Show dogs are kept in peak condition and that is testament to their care.

The breeds of dogs used, being primarilly Collies also concerns me, these "great" trainers seem to go for the easily manipulated, subservient breeds, I would like to see how great they really are when given a breed not known for its obedience and "willingness" to please.  If they are truly great they should succeed.

These are my observations.
Dawn.

Dawn I do a bit to support dogs for the disabled and have a particular interest in how they train especially clicker training. I was therefore more than a little surprised to hear that most of their dogs actually teach themselves to help the disabled person, especially if their condition is worsening. How do you explain that if they dont love what they are doing?

Oh and BTW dont soem show breeds have their tails docked and spend hours 'strung up' in unnatural positions just to make them look a certain way??

Edited because the dogs dont teach themselves from scratch Of course not, but they DO teach them selves new tasks.

>Oh and BTW dont soem show breeds have their tails docked

So do working dogs that are never going to see the showring.

>and spend hours 'strung up' in unnatural positions just to make them look a certain way??

'Hours'? No. Is a dog standing still being 'strung up' in an unnatural position for hours? My dogs stand in that position looking out of the window - it's perfectly natural to them!

My point was that show dogs are docked for purely asthetic reasons and it is not natural, any more than training them to do anything. Yes working dogs are docked too but the arguement was that dogs should not be made to do unnatural things and showing was natural.

Sadly some dogs do spend ages on the grooming table. On saturday some of the american cockers appeared to spend at leaset most of the morning tied up so they could not sit or lie down whilst being preened. Yes they ahve been trained to be patient, but surely this has more to do with the owners 'needs' than the dogs. Also some people still insist on lifting them down from the table by their tail and a slip lead, which must be uncomfortable for them at best and all this jut to preserve the flow of the coat! 

Dawn, I dont know what breed of dogs you have but there is no way that a collie can be described as being subservient.  I have two and I do agility with one of them.  If they dont want to do something they wont.  They have good and bads days just like we do.  Yes they are trained on command but surely that is no different to any show dog!

Dvnbiker.
Thats exactly how I would describe them, we just have different thoughts on it, no problem there :)  All dogs have a mind to say no at times, but some breeds are more easily trained to please, these are the breeds favoured by the so-called great trainers, I just think if they are so great why dont they use other breeds to prove it? 

Bluebell.
I agree that some things are self taught and I have no problem with hearing dogs etc... they live indoors as pets and are much loved, but most of their work is taught, they are trained to perform tasks.  Re show dogs, my dogs are showed naturally, not strung up to look a certain way, nor would I want one that was.  Tail docking???  no place on this thread, not connected.
Dawn.

<I just think if they are so great why dont they use other breeds to prove it?  >

Tut Tut you are saying someone should buy a dog to prove a point to you My God who do you think you are ? I don't like Gundogs, Terriers or Hounds but If I was Mary to prove to you I am a good dog trainer I can train any dog I should get one train it prove my point & then ???? I wouldn't want to live with it so I should sell it ? have it put down? give it to the RSPCA ? & then you would condemn me for doing so wouldn't you

You will never have heard of a Lady called Gwen Barrington who lived in Ireland & who bred IWS & GSDs She had GSDs that worked as Gundogs & IWS that worked her sheep Yes that is the right way round

Perhaps she could train someone else's dog? Just a thought.
:)

So she takes the dog from the owner(like the Ag Ch Sheltie BTW she is not Mary's)bonds with it then when she's done walks away & the dog isn't harmed Please get real what breed do you suggest Afghan ? Basset ? Airedale ? SBT(BTW there have been ob CC winners in SBT & WT) Bull Terrier ? & who is going to lend her this dog ? I wouldn't give any of these dogs house room sorry because I do not like the breed & to work with a dog just to prove a point is indeed exploiting the dog inquestion

<sigh>Mary has nothing to prove I only wish I had half her talent & rapport with all dogs

I would challenge you Dawn to take a stray dog from the streets(not a rescue kennels)to work on the stage off lead in a musical production with people who have never worked with a dog before Could you do it ? I very much doubt it as the first thing you would want to do is bung a collar & lead in it & use compulsion through the lead. I did it not once but twice& I never used a lead on them at all. The dogs were not BC but brown street mongrels & they lived with a friend who had the room to have them & worked with me with them & they saw me every week afterwards until they died

I did it not once but twice & I never used a lead on them at all.

Congratulations Moonmaiden, but I thought I made my feelings clear on performing dogs?
Dawn.

What ? you don't even know what the dog did & out of your mouth comes condemnation I don't train "trick"unless a recall is a trick or a sendaway is a trick or a retrieve is a trick ? OOOOOh loads of gundogs doing tricks weekly on shoots

No, she doesn't have to take it away - surely dogs can be trained by other people with their owners present?

Don't misunderstand me - I think what she does is very clever - but I don't really like it. That's the great thing about a free country!

So the owner will not be a distraction for a young dog with someone else training it ? Sorry you have lost me here, to get full concentration with a young dog there needs to be as little distraction as possible & don't forget this work is trained OFF lead & of course concentration will be instantly transferred to the trainer<sigh>& then back to the owner when its time to go home ? Yes of course thats how it works dogs have on & off switches

Why not? I've seen it done by other people before, where a trainer teaches someone else's dog a trick (like recall at training class, for instance), and the dog is happy to work for them, then go off home with the owner afterwards.

YOO HOO Moonmaiden, you said this......      The dogs were not BC but brown street mongrels & they lived with a friend who had the room to have them & worked with me with them & they saw me every week afterwards until they died  

then this........   So the owner will not be a distraction for a young dog with someone else training it ? Sorry you have lost me there   You're contradicting yourself and going against what you have said!  JG, I think she's struggling.
Dawn.

I found the dogs Dawn My friend has the room to take stray dogs in OK She worked on the house training & I did the obedience side God you are soooo sad & these dogs had had NO owners for months maybe years so had bonded to no one. Where did I say she was present whe  I trained them they were not young dogs

You should know all about dogs bonding to handlers working with the armed forces who switch the patrol dogs handlers around & use compulion methods seen by millons on TV when poor Fred the GSD was yanked off his feet to stop him pulling on the lead with his new handler, was he one you selected ? I have a long memory for animal cruelty in the "professional"world especially when it is sanctioned by the Armed Forces in full view of the cameras. If he was one of yours I hope you are very proud It made me sick

You are being silly now.  YAWN
Dawn.

Why haven't you answered my question re the SARDA dogs & why they use subserviant collies & not scent hounds ?

That's how I felt JG until I saw a couple of her videos. In Canine Cabaret the little sheltie in particular is having such an obvious ball that I found it impossible not to both be impressed and also rethink my own views on the 'circus' element of her Crufts' performances. Most agility dogs look as if they enjoy what they are doing but imho you often don't see such absolute joie de vivre in obedience dogs. I finished up thinking that Mary Ray is an extremely talented trainer who would excel in whatever she does with dogs - and more importantly the dogs would adore doing it!

(BTW with that said, I do agree with whoever said that they preferred Sorcerer's Apprentice to this year.)

Must admit this years performance for me didn't have the plot/theme of the previous ones which made them so different to others I had seen.  this years was pretty but I was waiting for the punch line.

I have a Border Terrier that works as a gundog, thats the right way round too!  :D
Dawn.

Dawn I think you have just defeted your own point. Some dogs enjoy certain things more than others so living in a house may not suit all dogs/breeds, just as doing agility and showing may not suit others. BUT if they enjoy it why not spend some quality time with them doing something they enjoy?

The point re show dogs being strung up and docked was simply that some breeds/breeders do this purely for looks. Surely this is far less in the dogs interests than doing agility or dancing with it.

Dawnb ,you wouldnt ride the grandnational on a donkey would you?
there are loads of breeds that can do all the sports. especially HWTM, all to a high level.
mary truely loves her collies & her line.

<The breeds of dogs used, being primarilly Collies also concerns me, these "great" trainers seem to go for the easily manipulated, subservient breeds, I would like to see how great they really are when given a breed not known for its obedience and "willingness" to please.  If they are truly great they should succeed.>

ROFLMAO have you ever owned a working Hill bred ISDS BC Dawn ?Do you think you put them in a field with sheep & they can be taught in a few minutes ? I've never owned a subserviant dog amougst my 4 BCs 5 GSDs 12 Beardies & 4 cavaliers & the hardest to train were the BCs they are no way subserviant or submissive & you may not know this but some BCs take themselves off to work at a very very early age like weeks old my first BC bitch was herding ducks & sheep at 9 weeks of age. They have the instincts of a wolf to hunt the sheep & this is chanelled into working the sheep instead of killing them

What about a Poodle ? Well Crufts Ob Championships have been won by a Standard Poodle whose handler  was working one of those subserivant BCs this year. It has also been won by a Dobermann & a Mongrel & there have been a Yorkshire Terrier who won Ob CCs, A Beardie Ob Champion , Golden Retrievers, Mary handlers a Sheltie Ag Champion. Why does she has to have another breed to prove herself But if challenged I'm sure she would but she doesn;t need to

Working Trials were orginally for the Forces & Police dogs & the exercises reflest that yet one man trained multiple breeds to become WT Champions, Including A german shorthaired(I think he was short haired), BC., GSD & Lab There have been several Lab WT & Weims are also sucecessful hardly what they were bred for.

There are many breeds working in obedience that you will never see same with HTM Wait until the Irish Water Spaniel starts competing of course IWS are noted for being subserviant aren't they

I had a BC who won Sheepdog trials & qualified to run at the English National who won in Breed & Obedience as well as doing WT & was he submissive & easy to train nope he got bored once he had learnt something & knew when he did it right & often refued to do it again

The easiest dog I have ever trained was an Irish Setter bitch who would do nothing without being told & I got her CDEx at her first WT , but god was she boring & I was glad I didn't own her

My next BC will not be bred to do Obedience but sheep work & yes we will train together & I will learn how to try to persuade him I am in charge whether or not I am successful will be down to me, should I get another breed to prove I can train dogs ? No Why because at the end of the day I have to live with thet dog & I prefer the breeds I like & Terriers Hounds & Gundogs are not my type of dog especially the showbred gundogs.his applies to all the obedience people & few get a BC to win but because they like BCs

There has been one Dobe champion, and you can count on one hand the other obedience champions, possible a few more GSD's but not many. 

I am no stranger to dog training Moonmaiden, I assessed dogs for the police, army and prison service for years, for attack, drugs and explosive work, so I have seen my fair share.  I still cannot get my head round always Collies, sorry.  It is a bit strange why they don't figure prominantly in police work in any capacity, dont you think?  I asked a police handler friend and she said they don't consider them at all.  Even so, this thread is about "dancing dogs" not how many dogs anybody has owned or trained.

I still maintain its performing animals for public entertainment, not for the dogs benefit, couldnt possibly be, the owners seem to get a kick out of it though, and I expect some show people do aswell.  However I have yet to see a show dog walking backwards, on its hind legs, confused by numerous commands, I doubt I will see it either.
Dawn.

The police do not use BCs for patrol work because they do not give the right impression(straight from the mouth of a senior trainer of police dogs)ie Whose going to be frightened of a BC ? They use compulsion methods & do all heelwork on leads. This is not about police dogs but about personal choice

I have yet to see a show dog off lead holding its head the way the Giant schnauzer & English Setter did at crufts without the sompulsion of those damn cheese wire chokers

My cavaliers spend half their lives on their back legs & I can take them in the ring & show them off lead

Collies are smart that is why people like them English Setters are(sorry of anyone has one)thick I could not live with a thick dog that has to be tols what to do

So you assessed a BC for SARDA work have you I wonder why most of the SARDA dogs are BC's Arh yes they are subserviant  & have to be commanded whilst they are working but SARDA training(as you must know) channels the dogs natural ability to search for bodies so why aren't they all gundogs ? or hounds ? as they should be  naturals ? Some on you tell me as I'm sure you must have assessed a lot of dogs for SARDA or body seeking work

I think you are going off on a tangent, grasping at straws now, who mentioned SARDA?  I also think you are being very slating to peoples choice of breed, I have seen many English setters in the field doing the job they WERE BRED FOR!  Why, if collies are such excellent search and rescue dogs, and in obedience, good at scent work, are they NOT used routinely for drugs and explosive work?

I think to stick to the threads original point would be best from now on.
Dawn.

You brought the police etc dogs that you have assessed into this not me So please tell me why hounds & gundogs(especially ESS)are not used by exclusively by SARDA handlers & the search dogs used in earthwakes etc ?

So these show dogs are bred to run around being strangled for the entertainment of the show peeps are they ?

As I said struggling.  I think I will leave this now, I have untrained, thick dogs to see to.
Dawn.

Bye bye Dawn Seeing as you cannot answer my questions

<There has been one Dobe champion>

H'humm - if I may interrupt here ?- you may be forgetting Ch, Ob Ch Jupiter of Tavey - along with Ob Ch Lady Gessler of Bryan this doubles our breed total :D

I have a Dobe bitch who walks naturally, backwards on her hind legs and can even go round corners (I think she uses her tail to find the doorways) and does this most days when she is backing into the area where I feed her.  I think, she thinks if she takes her eyes off the bowl it will disappear - BTW her hips are 0:1

DAWNB dont slag them off. its obvious you have no understanding of the breed, & i for one am finding you totally insulting

I really do not care Michelled, my opinion is just that, if you dontlike it, tough.
Dawn.

nobody should slag off other peoples breeds.have abit of respect.
i dont expect everybody to like them. but dont say things that are TOTALLY untrue.

there are many breeds i dont like but dont go around slating them on here.

you have  totally disgusted me with your untrue opinions on my beloved breed.

Here here Moonmaiden.  BC are not subservient dogs full stop and anyone who owns one or more will know this.  People think they are the easiest dogs to train.  They are not...

Dog showing has its ups and downs, but there certainly isnt any movements like dogs on hind legs, forced to walk upright etc... it must be incredibly stressfull on their hips. Now there's a point I can't argue with. Fair comment :)

My Brett had cr*p hips(34:34=68)would walk on his backlegs if I carried his food in as he was a greedy dog  & jump up & down & there was no damage to his hips we are not talking of 14 stone of dogs here but fit active light dogs & the Gluteus maximus is the strongest muscle in the body !

you dont know your collie very well dawn b. what a totally insulting statement. collies train you not the other way around & are not subserveiant!

Maybe you should go read Moonmaidens statements about breeds she freely states are thick!  then you can argue the toss with me about Border collies, which may I remind you I NEVER stated were anything other than trainable and subservient, which is how I have found them.
Dawn.

hang on a minute! you are on here slagging off collies. im standing up for my breed. whatever others have written has sod all to do with me.

you honestly have no idea what you are talking  when it comes to collies. they are not SUBSERVIENT. that is the very last thing they are.im so totally insulted by that, i actually feel sick.

You are reading things that aren't there!  I dont have a problem with Collies, I commented on the breeds used, and in the time I have spent working with dogs, how I have found them, thats all, if you can't deal with that, then so be it.
Dawn.

you sound as if you have a problem with them. thats how its coming across to me & others.
you cant know collies if you have found them subserviant.fact.they are strong tough dogs.trainable yes of course. but they work because they WANT to not because you tell them too

my friend has two BORDER TERRIERS that have done really well at obedience,beating the collies loads of times. proving any breed can be trained to do anything. i love her little guys dearly.