so what am I looking for tommorow, some people say make sure his eyes arent pink? Obviously he is white so Im only interested in the health of the dog and charector.

Make sure obviously he's hearing as some whites can be deaf.
In white's it's more preferable to have colour patches as some say
that the chances of the dog being deaf are lessened (How true or not this is can't really say
as all my white had some colour to them and the one that appeared white at birth had skin pigment spots
that when she had a bath she looked like a dalmation)
That he's a happy outgoing pup that is cared for like his coloured siblings.
Oh and don't expect to pay more than 50% of the coloured pups purchase price. Some
people try and sell them as rare (they aren't) and some try to sell for the same as their
coloured siblings!! Some white Boxers will be KC registered and some not this really depends
on the breeder concerned.

Best Of Luck Emma!

Kind Regards
Kirstine

Make sure he's been BAER tested so you know he isn't deaf.

He has been hear tested and can apparently hear a can being lifted from 200 yards. If I choose him he will cost £150, whilst the others are going for £450. He will not be KC egistered. But obviously have absolutely no intentions of breeding him.

What is the best time to get his appendige removed? Poor thing already thinking about removing his dog hood.

Are you sure he's BAER tested? I thought you said on another thread he's 4 1/2 weeks old -  BAER isn't done before 5 weeks, as far as I know.

Your are right its not BAER tested, but as far as Im aware the he has had some sort of test and it appears he can hear. Is this test something I should insist on? Even if its apparent he can hear.

Daunting stepping into the unknown, with a white dog.

Other tests are very subjective and open to misinterpretation, unfortunately. If he's not BAER tested I suggest you do your own tests with him away from the litter - have him in a room on his own and get someone outside the room to make a noise (so no visual stimulus or movement of air to attract him) and see how he reacts.

Good luck - I hope he'll be fine!
:)

They are varying trains of thought on this one Emma, some places such in the USA
get their bits removed really early....
Over here I'd guess 12 months and over as they they are maturing.
Personally I'd never get a bitch spayed until she'd had at least one season.
As for dogs can't really comment as never owned one, although have bred 2 males
but never kept them.

Please make sure that the parents of litter are heart tested and clear too.

Kindest Regards
Kirstine

LOL!  Make sure his eyes aren't pink?  White Boxers aren't albino, there's no danger of his eyes being pink.  You also won't be able to tell by colored patches or the lack of, it makes absolutely no difference.  The deafness is caused by a lack of pigment in the inner ear (which you can't see).  It's very easy to find out if he's hearing...take him into a room, shut the door and cuddle him and/or keep his attention.  Have whoever you take with you clap their hands, drop their keys, etc. and see if the dog startles or turns his attention to the noise.

In the US we do the neutering/spaying bit very early as it's shoved down our throats.  Typically 6 to 7 months of age.  I've had a pup altered at 7 months and a dog altered at 2+ years...haven't noticed a difference in behavior that could be related to age at the time of neuter.

Good luck with him!!!

>>You also won't be able to tell by colored patches or the lack of, it makes absolutely no difference.  The deafness is caused by a lack of pigment in the inner ear (which you can't see)>>

The surface of the inner ear is a continuation of the outer skin so pigment on the head certainly is an indication of pigment in the inner ear.  There has been much research on this and there is a definite negative correlation between head patches and loss of hearing, ie the more pigment on the head, the less likely the dog is to suffer colour related deafness.

Julie

Im armed with a large bunch of keys.

Cant remember would thier charectors have developed yet?

No, not yet. They're still very much toddlers.

Make sure any hearing test you do has the noise coming from outside the room you're in with the pup, or it's not a good test. So make sure you're in the room with the door shut, and see if there's a reaction when a noise is made in another room. That will ensure any reaction is due to hearing the noise and not down to other factors.

a deaf dog is not the end of the world is it?they can be trained to as high a standard as a hearing dog if you are inventful enough.theres lots of books on it ,including one by barry eaton that is called ear/ear or "ere ere" or something

I took this into account, so tried to find trainers who deal with deaf dogs. I could not find anything local, as I feel I would need expert support.

Mind you with all the NNNOOOs, that I might be saying he might wish he was deaf.lol

has anyone on here ever trained a  deaf dog?
ive met loads of deaf collie competing in ob. their owners just chatterer away as normal & use very clear arm signals.

you can also clicker train using a torch instead of a clicker or a target stick.

Yes...I've trained both of my deaf dogs.  Dogs, hearing and deaf, respond better to hand signals and body language than the spoken voice.  Training a deaf dog is very easy...the hardest part is learning how to get that individual dogs attention.

The important thing is to be aware of the fact, Michelle. Many deaf dogs, especially in the past, were very harshly treated for their 'disobedience'. :(

thats awful :(  :( :(
i think emma is behaving responsibly,:D personally if i had set my heart on a puppy the fact that he/she was deaf would not put me off,infact i would see it as a opportunity to experince a whole new way of communication & improve my "doggy skills"

Your right deaf dogs arent the end of the world, I have no experience of deaf dogs and I have checked if any local trainers are skilled with deaf dogs as I would need alot of support and guidence. But unfortunately not. But we all choose our pets for a certain reason.

Funny as I've had a boxer with a brown patch and ear who was deaf and a completely white Boxer (no patch) who was deaf...would you mind sharing your information with me so I can read up on it?  Might be something we can include on our website.

I dont want to be in a situation in 6 months not being able to cope. Im just trying to responsible knowing my limitations.

Having a deaf dog is in no way a limitation so don't be put off or think you may not be able to cope.  (But we are assuming this pup can hear, correct?)  I don't want to turn this into a deaf dog thread, however, I had never had any meetings with deaf dogs before I fostered (and adopted) my first.  He was no different than my hearing dogs accept he slept a lot better.  ;)

My parents have a deaf lurcher, I lived at home when they first got her and did most of her training.  she is a lovely little thing, you dont really need a specialist trainer but you do need to attend training classes.  Lily is really well behaved - most of the time - her main distractions being a lurcher are things that move and she loves to chase and of course you cant call her back but then even if she could hear I dont think she would come back when chasing stuff :D :D  She does keep an eye on you when she is off lead and if you give her a wave she comes back (if there is nothing to chase :p )  She has her bronze good citizen and is going to start agility soon :)

Getting very very nervous now. <takes a deep breath>

OK then, here goes to be flamed :D

It may not be the end of the world to have a deaf dog, but surely no-one could deny that training one is a much more difficult job than training a hearing pup?

If I were buying a puppy, I'm afraid I would not buy one in a breed/colour where risks are high, without ensuring that it had at least unilateral hearing.  I would let those that breed them take that responsibility ............

M.

Yes - I can deny that training a deaf dog is no more demanding than training a hearing dog.  From experience.  As I said...the difficult part is finding out what gets that particular dog's attention...be it a torch, a wave of the hand, etc.  Each dog is different.  Once you know what gets their attention it is no more difficult than training a hearing dog. 

Dogs are not born knowing English, French, Spanish or pig Latin.  Hearing dogs and deaf dogs alike respond better to hand signals and body language which is exactly what you use to train a deaf dog.  I've not been involved with clicker training but I understand that you use a click and then a reward instead of a spoken word and then a reward?  It's the same with a deaf dog although you would use a torch.

The only thing daunting about training a deaf dog is teaching yourself hand signals and/or sign language if you've never used them before.  And that's not even all that difficult.  My dogs are all trained using hand signals along with spoken commands.  That way, if there is an instance where they can't hear me they can see my hands and know what I want them to do.

My hearing and deaf dogs all know the hand signals for sit, down, come, stay, toilet, cookie and dinner.

You're right, training a deaf puppy is completely different in very many ways to training a hearing puppy. It can indeed be done, but it takes a lot more dedication.

After all, you can't even use the 'yelp' technique to prevent cure mouthing (and its siblings will have had no response using that method either), and clicker-training won't be an option either.

I think there is so many isuues (pobably not he best word), Such as teaching the whole family the comands etc. But also a boarding kennel, if for any reason it had to go in for a couple of days. Would they know how to use the commands.

No, kennel staff almost certainly wouldn't ... but aren't we getting rather ahead of ourselves? You haven't done your own checks to find out if the pup actually is totally deaf yet! (You won't be able to detect unilateral deafness, but for a pet pup that doesn't matter anyway.)

And surely there are things that are extremely difficult to teach by hand signal?  We regularly have owners on here in despair with issues over recall with hearing dogs - imagine having to get attention before using hand signals for recall, or do you have to make a decision to exercise on lead or only in 100% secure areas.

NOT IN ANY WAY AIMED AT YOU EMMA - a generic comment - to be honest, I can't help thinking that people buying (e.g.) white boxers, hopefully at a reduced price, and being told they will be easy enough to train can only perpetuate the supply/demand.  Is it not better to encourage breeders not to do flashy-flashy breedings which are likely to produce the whites, thereby reducing the numbers of whites, and proportionally those that are deaf?

Maybe this is a naive view, and as always I'm more than willing to be educated?  However, in my breed, I certainly wouldn't take the chance of breeding merle to merle and risking deaf/blind puppies.

M.

>or do you have to make a decision to exercise on lead or only in 100% secure areas.

Exactly.

I'm sorry, perhaps I missed it somewhere, what experience do you have training deaf dogs?  If you have any, I'd be more than happy to debate the issue with you in a separate thread or privately.  If you've not any, then I have said my piece and am not going to hijack this topic.

To answer your question regarding recall, my deaf dog is not permitted off lead whilst he is not in my fenced garden, nor are any of my dogs as I adhere to the leash laws of my county.

The only way to ensure whites are not born is to breed plain to plain.  You'll not see that happen.

Good luck to you Emma...hearing or deaf...I'm sure you'll get a great puppy...how can you go wrong with a Boxer.  ;)

Nope, absolutely no experience of training deaf dogs at all, which is why I say I'm happy to be educated. :D

M.

Hi Marina *waves* long time no see :)

Hi Carla - still lurk a lot, but don't often post - too many 'barnies' of late. :D 

I stick my oar in when I get the urge though!

M.

We don't have leash laws in the UK, Mr Spock, and as Emma is in the UK the thread is about the circumstances that'll affect her (if the pup turns out to be deaf).

Yes, Jeangenie, thank you, I'm aware that there are no leash laws in the UK.  Although, I was in Pets at Home Saturday and saw several leashes and long lines, so as they're readily accessible, I would assume it would be no problem for Emma to use a lead for her dog if he did, in fact, need one.

It's just that only exercising a dog on the lead is not usual practice in the UK, so having to do that is one more example where deaf dogs need to be treated differently to hearing ones, for their own safety.
:)

I think this may be a cultural thing as in the UK one of the main parts of enjouying our dogs is being able to take them for walks to free run and play with other dogs.  The only dogs routinely kept on lead are those that are totally unreliable off lead, and some way of excersising them safely ahs to be devised.

Fortunately we do not have the kidn of restrictions on excesrsieng dog that seem common in USA, and long may it continue.  the idea of designsted dog parks, which non driving people like me woudl perhaps not be able to get to, and laso the concentraion of dogs all in oen place making fights and disease a greater risk would be abhorent to many of us.

The UK being densley populated few dog owners have the luxury of having enough of their own land to adequately excersise in mind and body anthing other than the smallest of toy breeds.

I own an independant hunting breed not known for it's superfast recall or strict obedience, but all five of my dogs, including the nauighty one get regular off lead excersie, I just ensure that it is in the largest and safest of the parks and recreation grounds near me.  I would hate to be restricted to leash walking only, which I find is restrictive enough for when the girls are in season and we road walk only whenre no losse dogs have business being.

I agree, and in my view responsible breeders either put to sleep or keep themsleves any totally deaf pups.  There are plenty of perfectly healthy dogs pout to sleep every day that need homes and would make much better pets.  A deaf dog because of it's problem can so much more easily caese a trafic accident or any other problem when it loses attention, and also some have severe behavioural problems due to the limitations to their senses and not being able to be comunicated with as easily as a hearing dog.

If someon is realy looking for a challenging companion with problems there are plenty of adult dogs out there who need them.

Ditto Brainless' thoughts ......... and also, while there are without doubt some trainers who could get the best out of any dog, there are also many who will not rise to the challenge of training a deaf dog, and rescue will bear the brunt.

As a slight contradiction to Mr. Spock's earlier post, constant breeding of plain to plain is not the only way to eliminate the appearance of white pups.  Unless I understand the genetics wrongly, plain to flashy will not produce white pups?  I am no genetics expert, but in my breed, using the MORE flashily marked dogs (white factored to white factored) will produce mismarks.  Is this also the case with boxers?

In all cases, as I said above, I am fully happy to be educated if I have the wrong end of the stick ......

Feel guilty for hijacking this thread, particularly as - thankfully :D - Emma's Charley sounds fine.  Hope you have great fun with him, Emma, after your sadness with Bradley.

M.x

Hi Marina,

Plain to plain boxers = plain
Flashy to flashy Boxers = a percentage of whites, flashy's and the odd plain.
plain to flashy =flashy's and plains plus can have odd white if not a true genetic plain dog.

My litter of 7 produced from flashy parents = 4 whites and 3 brindles.
Of the 4 whites 3 had big colour patches and 1 had skin pigmentation spots.
The brindles 2 were flashy and 1 plain/solid.
All whites were hearing although not BAER tested, vet checked them out for me.
In my litter should have had some reds as dam is red and sire is brindle carrying red gene but none
produced.....if we repeated the mating who knows what combination would have got 2nd time around.

Dr Cattanach or Dr Willis best people to speak to re coat colours being Prof's of genetics.
Dr C has written articles re coat colours in Boxers and the expectation of what produces what.
Can't put my hand on the articles though...arrgghh.

Kirstine :)

Hi Kirstine ...........

http://www.boxerbuddies.org/Boxer%20Info/white_boxers.htm

Sorry, too lazy for links tonight!

How are you?

M.

Thanks for link Marina. :)

I'm fine, well health starting to get back on track now after last years awful record
still waiting to hear what specialist says re health troubles.
Know RBH very well now.

Hope you and yours are well :)
Kirstine

Oh, and one final thing - in themselves, I don't have any issue with white Boxers per se (although I think the coloureds are much more attractive) - as long as breeders aren't selling them for astronomical prices.  (For a healthy pup, I don't even necessarily think the price should be reduced, it's cost the same to rear.)

My issue is purely that people don't take the trouble to ascertain, through the easy scientific methods available, whether those pups can live a normal life and take responsibility for those that can't.

There, I'll go away again now ........ ;)

M.

Emma, I guess it is a boxer you want again :-)  believe me I do understand.Does it have to be a puppy?  is the cost a factor? if so would you not consider an older boxer perhaps that is retired from showing etc?  Not wanting to take over your post but trying to look at it from a different angle.

My first dog I owned myself was a boxer ( Fudge) and she probably has held the biggest place in my heart still miss her. When I eventually stop working or work from home 100% I would love another one BUT I think the work involved training them and that is one without any potential problems and their need for people around them can make it a litter harder.  

I guess you have thought it all out but be careful you don't let your heart rule your head. :-))

Its not a cost factor, otherwise I wouldnt get a dog. An ex show boxer is an option one I have looked into. Im not doing it for selfish reasons either as I have done alot of soul searching on that side. I know I can offer a boxer the most wonderfull life, from start to end. 

Seriously no offence taken I want opinions, best way to keep informed.

Im off to see him at 1 pm so fingers crossed. Oh and Im not looking for a Bradley replacement. But an individual, with his own charector

Hi Emma, When I asked about the cost factor I was meaning the inital cost. :-)) as I know a puppy is or can be very expensive.  I was thinking if you were trying to watch costs ( and there is nothing wrong in that) perhaps an older one would fit the bill also :-) do you see what I mean?

Totally blue, well he can certainly hear, all I did was tut tut and he turned and bounded towards me. He is beautiful. So deposit has been payed, just the long 3 weeks to go. Thats 504 hours or 30240 seconds.