There you go again, I NEVER said they were not tough dogs (whatever that has to do with it)  and I DID say they were trainable.  I'm sorry if you dont agree with me, but I really don't care if you do or you don't.  The meaning of subservient is "Compliant and obedient to authority"  I think that is quite a fair comment to make, it is not a derogatory statement and only you seem to have a problem with it.
Dawn.

no its not only me!!!! but its me that is answering now.
id say that they like to work as a "patnership" not to a authoritive leader,& there for not subserviant.
a tough dog would not be subserviant

Somewhere along the line we have this arguement every year after Crufts Too many collies doing silly things that they weren't bred for and demeaning dogs or similar. Collies do it because they can there are exceptions in every other breed that can also do many of these things but at the end of the day Border Collies are the best LOL JMHO
and no I'm not gonna argue this point with anyone your entitled to love your breed too!

You are indeed Satincollie, I agree :D
Dawn.

Dawn, having read your post concerning collies I have to completely disagree.  If collies are so easy to train then why are thousands of them abandoned every year because people buy them and cannot handle them?  Collies are not easy trained, they are smart and they demand respect.  And if you ask me they are one of the best dogs to use when it comes to obedience.  You say that showing is ok but HTM isnt?  Having a dog stand in the one place while it is examined then have it prance round a ring?  I have nothing against people showing their dogs, but obedience lets the dogs minds be active.  HTM is something that I have recently started with my dogs and they adore it.  They have done obedience and agility and this is something else they they enjoy.  My dogs would not do it if they did not enjoy it.  I tried showing one of my cavaliers and he would not stand still to be looked at, but when hes out in that arena doing agility or obedience he is amazing. 

<Surely there is no difference between teaching a dog to herd sheep and doing HWTM>???????????????????????????????????????????

Where did I write that ?

Hm so whats the difference between a lab/golden guide dog & gundogs surely a special breed should be developed & not a dog who should be out working to the gun & not leading blind people around. There are plenty of mongrels wanting homes that could be trained to lead the blind releaeing the gundogs to work on shoots

Sorry if someone using kind methods wants to train their dog & exercise its body & mind then it is their right to do so

Not all working gundogs owners use the dogs natural abilities there are electric collars to punish a dog that steps out of line & some sheepdog trainers use them too as do the police in some places.

And as I & others keep saying a dog cannot be forced to do anything if it not on a lead(or wearing an electric collar )!

my three could not work sheep (i have tryed,)they only have minor herding instints

Yeah and dogs were not designed to be clipped and shampood and made to prance round a ring were they?

& it you don't like it switch it off

Thats most certainly what I did!! :)

i dont think there is anything wrong with heelwork to music.  its not about it lookin like a circus show, its about showing people what they can achieve obedience wise with their dogs when they spend time training with them.  It shows dog folks that training ur dog to heel off lead and watch u all the time can be done and i think it inspires people to have a better trained dog that they can be proud of.
i think u guys r lookin into this too ethically, especially when there is no harm done to the dogs unlike training lions and bears.

I've got lost somewhere on this thread, but Mary Ray did have a BSD, I believe it was Minack Red Aral, and she did her best ever heelwork with this dog. Anyone who has one can tell you that BSDs are very different to BCs - more "stubborn" if you like. People who have BCs and try to train BSDs the same way tend to come unstuck according to what i've seen, so she must be good as a trainer, and she uses the clicker which to me makes a big difference. The whole point about clicker training is that the dog enjoys what it does - dogs have been known to grab the clicker and take it to their handler to initiate training.

I too would be against such displays if the dog were dressed in frilly knickers and so became objects to laugh at, like poor circus animals of not so long ago in the UK. If that ever happens i will be in the front line to get Mary stopped!!!

From  my personal viewpoint, for the moment at least, the dogs and owner were simply doing a trained exercise which to my mind is no different to what i do in working trials except that my dog doesn't twirl around - or not too much ;)

Lindsay
X

& shelties too!!!!!

She had a Lurcher too, what happened to that? and a Papillon.
Dawn.

shes keeps all her dogs ,shes recently got a new lurcher whippet x collie, so expect to see great things in some sphere from him. hes not a year yet

I must admit that as a man I do find HTM a bit naff, but then I'm not that impressed with showing either.

The dogs seem to enjoy HTM, but then its rare to see any 'working' dog that doesn't enjoy its job, whether trained with clickers or most other methods.

As an observer (who trains gundogs rather than obedience or HTM), it looks less exacting to achieve than formal competitive obedience. However, if fairness the lady appear to be at the top of the game and consistantly achieves great success in a number of disciplines.

I'm a little surprised that someone of Moonmaidens experience suggests that you cant get a dog to something that it doesnt want, when off-lead. - course you can! ;-)

<I'm a little surprised that someone of Moonmaidens experience suggests that you cant get a dog to something that it doesnt want, when off-lead. - course you can!  >

Well Havoc do tell me how you have FORCED a  dog to do something with no lead, collar, or elecrtric collar on it  & with NO touching the dog  against it's will ? Perhaps you are a mindreader & enforce your will on a dog that way ? So please enlightened me how to FORCE a dog against it's will with NO physical contact at all just with your voice,body language. & titbits/toys(for rewards for completing the required exercise & not given during the training)  & I'll try it out the next time the very aggressive local "stud"labrador jumps the wall  into my front  garden & poops on the lawn,throwing stuff, waterpistols etc have all failed & the only way to shift the dog is physically grabbing it & risking it biting & drag it out of the Garden. So any tips on your method will be appreciated you might even want to show me it in action on this particular dog as it is very very aggressive & even it's owners don't risk touching it

A compliant, well-trained dog will do things it doesn't want to, but without ever being forced. It'll be reluctant, but obedient.

That is not what I mean I am writing of training a dog from stratch to be obedient & not touching the dog at all. For how do you force a dog to walk on its back legs when it doesn't want to without a collar lead etc ?

>For how do you force a dog to walk on its back legs when it doesn't want to without a collar lead etc ?

I've no idea. I wouldn't want to even try. I don't encourage my dogs to jump up at all - I like them with all four feet on the ground!
:)

Quote : "just with your voice,body language"

Thats the key. I very rarely use treats or toys.

I certainly wouldnt suggest that every dog can be made to do anything, but with a well trained and well mannered dog, it matters little if the lead is on or off. I dont practise 'hands off training', but when the basics are in place, physical contact for training purposes is rarely required.

My spaniel would dearly love to chase and catch the pheasants that she flushes, but instead she sits when they flush - I dont need a lead to enforce it.

My dogs would all love to fetch a retrieve, but only the selected dog goes when sent by name, despite four of them being off lead.

If I tell one of my dogs to "leave it", I expect them to comply without being specifically taught the command, the tone of voice tells them all they need to know.

There are loads of examples, and Im just an average gundog trainer.

With regard your specific problem, Id be inclined to build a bigger wall or get a powerful jet-hose ;-)

That isn't what I asked you I asked you how do you FORCE a dog to comply when it doesn't want to do so ?  You have already trained your dog to obey & it is willing to do so Are you teeling me you have never had a dog that wouldn't work they way you wanted in every way

If you have a dog that does not want to obey with no contact you cannot make it obey, a trained dog will sit there because it is conditioned by training to do so but if that dog really does not want to obey you cannot make it.

You can teach a dog to respond to a sound & some breeds are more compliant because years of select breeding for the required behaviour For example how many working gundog breeders would use a stud who regularly broke the line or whined during a shoot Not many I would think.

If you can force a dog to obey without contact how come on TV a trained ESS explosive dog failed because it went into gundog mode when a bird caught its attention & the dog would not obey its handler

Sheep trialling dogs are taught not to grip sheep, but if there's a defiant ewe & the dog loses patience thay can & do grip reverting to the wolf reaction & nothing the shepherd can do will stop that dog

So please tell me how would you FORCE a dog to walk on its back legs without contact when it doesn't want to ?

As to the Labrador Sorry building regs prohibit walls over 6 feet & this b dog has even had a fire hose turned on it to no avail, I have a much better solution My GSD bitch, since he attempted to attack her & found out he isn't top dog he hasn't tried again. He was limping around the parish for a fair few weeks afterwards & my GSD does like the taste of yellow Labrador tail(he wasn't quick enough getting back over the wall after meeting my big girll)

Moonmaiden,

I fear that we are going off on our own tangent, not really in-line with the thread. I certainly wasn't suggesting that Mary Ray forces her dogs to do anything, and I wasnt really meaning the 'on-hind legs manouvre'.

My comment was merely based on your assertion that "as I & others keep saying a dog cannot be forced to do anything if it not on a lead(or wearing an electric collar )!" and i am merely suggesting that there are occasions where many dogs can be made to do (or not do) certain things without the use of a lead or electric collar. You are quite correct, that if the dog is adamant that it wont obey, then in some circumstances there is nothing you can do about it, however my meaning was that it is quite possible to get a dog to do something that it really doesnt want to do without needing a lead. Particularly where a good grounding of obedience is in place.

I can make my dog go to his bed at night when he really doesnt want to just by using my voice and pointing towards the kitchen, he will hesitate and look at you because he doesnt want to go to bed he wants to carry on playing but because he has been trained to go to his bed when told he goes to it even if he doesnt want to (albeit reluctantly ;) is this what you are getting at Havoc ?

blondbird,
Yep, thats an example.

did marys looked "forced" to you then? reluctant? the spotlight could hardly keep up with kizzy at the start she was having such a ball!!!

Yep, mine don't want to lie down beside the table and wait until we have finished before the tidbits are doled out. Then they don't want to take the tidbits politely and in order instead of grabbing. They don't want to get up from the chair they are comfy in just because I want to sit in it. They are convinced that falling water is bad for them so they positively hate going out when it's raining (for some reason rain water isn't so toxic if we are going for a walk!) But they do all of those things without a hand being laid on them.

I would have thought the whole point of training a dog at all is to get it to do what you want to it to do, rather than what it wants to do. So every time a dog comes when it's called, rather than carry on investigating that interesting sniff under the hedge, it's doing what it doesn't really want to do, and no force is used.

I'm not sure where this fixation on the use of force came into the thread?

Jeangenie,

My fault I think. Merely a 'throw-away' comment that I made, based on a point I had picked up on one of Moonmaidens posts. The main intention of my original post was to suggest that I personally find HTM a bit naff. ;-) I certainly wouldn't say that Mary Rays dogs are forced to do anything.

I thought it was Moonmaiden who kept mentioning dogs being forced to do things - I'm getting very muddled here!!! :) :D

I have to agree i see HTM as a bit naff too :o Actually i find it down right annoying,i do feel a bit sorry for the dogs,it all looks very unnatural,i've never seen dogs do those kind of moves in the wild,or the domesticated type either ;) I admit i do cringe and switch over when i see it coming on tv!

Someone asked how do you FORCE  dog to do something OFF lead? Well, the first thought that popped into my head was fear,if the dog knows it will get punished then it will do it!! Just my opinion ;)

Mary Ray uses kind motivational training methods. Do you remember when Quincy went into part of his HWTM routine while competing in  the obedience at Crufts? Mary didnt punish him she just shrugged her shoulders and grinned then came back the following year and took the obedience title with him. My collies playbow to each other all the time they do jump about and turn and twist very quickly and very naturally after all if they were herding sheep they need to be able to turn on the spot.
Start punishing a BC to get it to do what you want and you might aswell give up straight away it wont work.

I agree completely.  I have camped next to Mary at several shows, her dogs adore her, any one of us would love to have the rapport that she has with her dogs.  Believe me it is something very special.

If you are lucky enough to have a relationship with a collie like she has, then they would jump off a cliff for you and not even question it.  Right or wrong......depends on how you look at it and what you want from your dog.

I really don't see your problem? All training is teaching a dog a "trick". Its only human thinking that suggests it is a trick, to a dog there is no distinction between tricks and proper training. I would rather see a dog (particularly a BC) doing something they enjoy and using their intelligent minds than going crazy with boredom. Not everyone wants to do obedience or agility, and if HTM gets ordinary dog owners interested in stimulating their dogs minds and bodies then i see no problem. A lot of non-doggy people can't see the point of obedience, that is certainly not natural either. (I personally like all the doggy sports.) I think Border Collies shine becuase they like to do thingsl. They want to work for their handler. Other breeds can do these things, but not all are interested in working. In Mary's video she shows how to train your dog to do many of the moves, but she also emphasises that you shouldn't make your dog do anything that he is not comfortable with. I think this thread seems to have solely turned on Mary Ray, but she is not the only one to do HTM, she is merely just the most talked about.

Shall we all agree that it's very clever, just not to everyone's taste?

Yep :D

Sounds good to me ................"JG the voice of reason" :D

Absolutely. :-)

Very well put :D :D :D

Yvonne

This thread is being to have PETA characterisctics, methinks :(

We either train our dogs, to do what we want them to because the training suits US.   Dogs are (generally) compliant because they wish to PLEASE us - albeit sometimesreluctantly.   The dog is a domesticated animal and has been for over two thousand years (I stand to be corrected on this point -probably a lot longer).    Our behaviour has changed during this period, and so too has that of the dog - we have never ever trained any of our dogs to "dance" - yet our Border Terrorist would always join in & jump around with Nos 2 & 3 sons when they danced around to a certain tune and would sing to another.   His only reward?  People laughing to see them! 

Margot

>The dog is a domesticated animal and has been for over two thousand years (I stand to be corrected on this point -probably a lot longer).   

About 10,000 years longer! ;) :)

I KNEW I was wrong there - didn't have time to check up properly!!!!

Margot :)

exactly satincollie. border collies  do not learn through harsh handling. they are NOT a breed you can bully. you need to show,teach & motivate. thats all they need.

hi rose you should see my dogs twirl for fun when out walking! yes they have been taught the move but the do it for fun. & flynns turned into a "bowalcholic" just bows all over the place. i dont do HWTM but enjoy teaching my dogs fun moves that they enjoy to learn & do. collies love to learn & be "doing" all the time.

Just to point something out.  No you dont see wild dogs doing HTM but do you see wild dogs prancing around a ring and then standing letting people examine it?  

Trotting and standing still are natural movements for any dog, wild or otherwise, Lynn-Alexandra.
:)

Don't take the bait JG.  :D
Dawn.

Tchoh! Silly me! I relaxed for a moment! :D :D

:D :D
DAwn.

didnt see the agree to disagree bit. Fair enough.

opps you just answered my above question,sorry havoc!!!!!