OK who's got a red book?

Yesterday at Crufts a foreign contingent took offence at the following:-  The bitch CC was awarded to the Open winner, and the Bitch Res CC to the Limit winner. No problem there you might think, but as the res cc was being awarded, the 2nd placed bitch from Open was making it's way across the ring and made a quick about turn to be told by their supporters that a rule had been breached, and the 2nd in open should have been able to compete for the res cc. I always thought it was a judges discression to invite such a dog back into the ring. Am I correct, and thus no 'rule' was breached in this case.

Dawn R.

Spot on Dawn if they have objected it will be chucked out(lol my beardie got a Res CC from limit to the Open Bitch & second in Open was never called in as Lily Turner had already told the steward when she went to get the CC & Res CC cards)

"Am I correct, and thus no 'rule' was breached in this case."  No rule was broken.

I think some judges do it out of courtesy.

This is not a rule in the UK as you have said,
the judge will do this out of courtesy, if the
judge thinks that the dog that was second to his
CC winner, was not as nice as something he might
have seen in another class , he should out of courtesy
tell his stewart , that he will not want the second
to the CCwinner back in the ring, in Austrialia it is
a rule, that the second to the CCwinner comes back
to challenge.

Its not courtesy the Judge should indicate before picking up the CC & res CC cards to the ring steward if they which to have the second to the CC winner in the ring after she/he awards the CC(this is usually done after the all the unbeaten dogs in the ring  & has has moved them again etc)However the Judge can(very rarely done )ask for only certain class winners to be brought back into the ring Happened to us with my girls 3rd CC Lily told her steward she wanted the Open Bitch winner to stay in the ring & the Limit & 2nd in Open only to be brought in the ring ! Lily had(God Bless her)a "photographic" memory & after signing the CC & giving our girl BOB she told me exactly which shows she had judged her at & were & why she was placed ! Spread over nearly 5 years & 4 shows, she could also explain the breed standard as she saw it in minute detailsin ALL the breeds she gave CCs in  She was a real dog Lady

However it is more usually found that the second to the CC winner is brought into the ring !

It is alway out of courtesy that the dog that was second
to the CCwinner is asked in,

Lily remembered her dogs AND took notes & knew she prefered the Limit bitch & Postgrad bitch to the Second in open & had no need to call her in & there is no requirement for any judge to be"courteous"when it woul dbe raising false hopes of the Res CC ! I did say what she did was rare but she was a no nonsense lady who  never minced words & never did the walking up & down looking at dogs she was not goung to place & could end up giving a CC to if the Winner on the day is disqualified some thing a lot of people either don't know or have forgotten

"Its not courtesy the Judge should indicate before picking up the CC & res CC cards to the ring steward " is that not in itself not showing courtesy. ?? :-))

Moonmaiden a lot of judges always do it out of courtesy.  Maybe some dont but a lot do :-)

Yes but many people expect to be called in expecting to get the reserve CC & this is a recent thing years ago you would wait quietly  until the judge had decided the CC winner & if the ring steward came & only then did you go into the ring & if they did not come to you or indeed did not leave the ring when the judge picked up the CC & Res CC you knew you were not needed. Expectations are that much higher nowadays

"the Judge should indicate before picking up the CC & res CC cards to the ring steward "this is what my friend who is a trained Ch Sh steward was told at a KC seminar is the correct way for the judge to do things not out of courtesy but how the KC expect a judge to run their ring & work with the stewards

Many many years ago I saw a quite amusing thing the judge(famous & now deceased)had decided the CC & had gone to the table to tell they steward if he/she wanted any other dogs brought in & he/she wanted the second to the x coloured dog brought in for consideration for the Res CC, but the x coloured dog had won Post Grad, Mid Limit & Limit beating three different dogs so when this was pointed out to the judge he/she said call all three in. So he/she had M Puppy, Puppy, Junior, Novice. Debutant. Under Grad, Grad, the CC winner, the three dogs that came 2nd to him & the Open & Veteran winners 13 large dogs in a small ring,  the steward was tearing his hair out & the judge then gave the res CC to the Minor Puppy winner. Add to this it was chucking it down & the wet weather teant were in danger of collapsing & indeed shortly after doing BOB all the marques had to be emptied !& several of them did collapse Ah yes those were the day ;)

Never yet seen this in the shows I have been at or watched ringside :-)  (almost unsportly behaviour) I have always seen  what you describe that people wait quietly at the edge of the ring, but prepared should they be shouted in. I would say 9 times out of 10  the second in open dog at the shows I have attended are shouted back in even if they don't get the Res CC... Maybe it is breed specific.  :-)))

Think you maybe right about expectations though.

I have to say I was alarmed at Crufts this year with the behaviour of people with the cameras most not being british exhibitors or visitors I should add with the cameras. I was stood on, crushed.  Our steward was blowing a gasket at them. He must have screamed abotu 200 times no flashes when judging and not to enter the ring till the judge had made her mind up. Half of them were sprawled on the ring floor before the judge had picked her marking book up.  It was very up sportly to say the least.

Well I could relate what happened in one breed but I'm going to wait to see what the photographs of the BOB show first LOLOLOLOL It happened today so there 's a clue ;)

Hi MM,

If it's the breed I'm thinking of it's a common occurrence every year :(   There are some who think they have the right to play by an entirely different set of rules and what's more - although not exactly *encouraged* to do so, let's just say an official *turn a blind eye*policy seems to be the norm ;)

Regards, Teri

No its not the GSDs :O & Double handling is policed heavily at Crufts(I coughed walking passed once & got collared & I was 20 +feet from the ring. It was what happened as part of  the challenge for BOB & what happened after the decision  No fisticuffs but irony actually LOLOLOLOL

Oh well, will have to wait for the gossip :D

Have to differ about policing of the GSDs though - three years in the trot I've fought my into the ring to get reports on the BOB & BOS winners (when I used to cover the Pastoral Group for the Kennel Gazette) only to find that the crowds in the rings at the time were not the usual Pedigree Chum runners, Group Stewards, Dog World and Our Dogs reporters - but in fact spectators who'd moved into the rings BEFORE the awards were being given out :rolleyes: and of course I inadvertently added to the *in-crowd* because I ssumed judging was over already

So clearly - having been slap, bang in the middle of it,  it's a greater offence to draw attention to yourself from a distance than to draw attention to the dogs *up close and personal*  :D

LOL,  Teri ;)

You mean you have seen double handling during BOB judging with GSDs when the BOB has been of the UK type as happened in the last two years ?

It has been two years since an"International"type GSD was BOB at it was this BOB I was accused by one of the three Crufts officials policing the GSD ring of double handling(not my dog or anything to do with me as I was talking to a shelite owner at the time !

Nothing to do with sttracting the dogs

Hi MM,

I'm sure your weren't involved

No - didn't even visit Crufts last year or this one (although I had intended to go to this year's but coats of certain furry folk who shall remain nameless were not co-operating :(   I last exhibited in 03 and last reported for the Pastoral Group the year before they changed the format of the Gazette away from the glossy hyped up expensive one!  Well who can blame me, I liked my luxuries :D

Regards, Teri ;)

LOL the steward wanted my name & address & said I'm going to report you for Double Handling, my friend with the sheltie ever quicker witted by me retorted with"wouldn't if I was you mate she's a lawyer(I'm not)& she doesn't even own a dog (good job all my dog bit n bobs were on my friends bench)!"

His face was a picture & he went very very red ! & strutted off to harrass someone else

Thanks Peeps, I wish I'd had the confidence to speak up at the time,I thought I was sure, but I didn't want to argue the toss just in case.

Dawn R.

LOL Dawn  I get a free KC red book each year being the secretary of a show society & get all the updates etc and have the good fortune to have a lovely trained Ch Sh steward as a very good friend(he does at least one breed every year at Crufties)who helps keep me on the straight & narrow ;)