Just wondering if anyone on here does this with their dogs? We watched a Young Kennel Club display at crufts today and then a demonstration by pedigree on how to do it, looks fun :)

These dogs are such delight to watch. Both trainers and dogs do a great job.

Hmmm - am I the only one that thinks it looks like circus tricks - particularly when they get the dogs to dress up as well :rolleyes:

Yvonne

Is there anything wrong with dogs doing "circus" tricks?I'll admit - some of its cringeworthy - but Mary Ray(?) I find fascinating :D

I just thought i might have a go with Leo he loves doing stuff like that and as long as he enjoys what hes doing i dont mind doing it

I like Mary Ray as well, but then I am biased - her red and white collie 'Quincy', Woodsorrel Red Wine, is my dog's uncle.

It may look like circus tricks, but then that could be said for obedience too. The most important thing is, the dogs love it, it keeps them mentally and physically occupied which, at the end of the day, is what collies need. As long as the training methods are happy and the dog enjoys it, what does it matter?

Personally, I can't wait to see what Mary and Quincy do this year on tonights Crufts highlights.

Claire

But the dogs so love doing it :) I'm not sure about the dressing up tho' - although I must admit that I've dressed a dog up for training class Xmas party - but the costume was only for for a few minutes and he doesn't mind :)

Daisy

no trevor, you are NOT the only one :)

You too think that Marye's dogs wearing posh collars is dressing up & if the dogs minded wearing the clothes they wouldn't stay on for very long believe me

Hm All I can say is B hell Mary what are you going to do next year after handling 4 dogs off lead to music & reducing me to tears Maybe sending the dogs in on their own ?

Well I know an Elkhound owner who would like to try it, as her dog makes up all sorts of games to play with her son. 

Many people who find traditional Obedience too restrictive or God forbid boring would like this instead.

Does anyone know of a heelwork to music training class in the Leicestershire area or how to find one????

Barbara

They could try this linkthey don't say they do HTM but the do teach some of the moves

she makes me cry whenever i watch her do her HWTM. fantastic rapport with all her dogs. in all the many sports she does. fantastic talented handler & a lovely quite shy person to talk to.

i love watchin this sort of thing, u can tell how much work has gone into training these dogs!

i did start with mine, but so far ive got her to twist round on command and to rear up. shes yet to master the two together,lol.
i dont think its cruel, its jus a bunch of commands strung together.  mentally tires the dog :D

Sorry but I think Mary Rays Sorcerer was by far the best. Heelwork to music should be just that, not dancing on two back legs. It can't be good for the dogs. And as for getting four dogs to pay attention to a handler, again, sorry, it isn't that difficult if you have trained dogs to do heelwork. Disappointed this year with her performance. Not a lot of music or heelwork, just circus tricks. IMO.:-)

I absolutely cannot stand dancing with dogs.  It is nothing more than circus performing animals for public entertainment.  I cannot see what possible benefit those dogs could get from doing it.  I was disturbed to see one of Mary Rays dogs permanantly carrying a ball during its "performance"  why was this?  It was clear to me and in my opinion, those dogs were very confused and robotically behaved.  I remember last year (I think) that during an obedience test one of the dogs was so confused it began walking backwards!  I feel very sorry for them.
Dawn.

I can understand why people feel it's circus tricks; however, its not that different to Obedience - that's pretty unnatural, whoever heard of dogs heeling to each other, and the rest? :D

Last year one of her dogs did walk backwards during Obedience, but it was great when Mary just laughed and was relaxed about it. Clicker trained dogs may offer behaviours sometimes, which dogs trained in other ways may not because they are used to being told what to do, whereas clicker trained dogs are used to thinking for themselves.

Lindsay
x

LOLOL Dawn my Brett always had a toy in his mouth when I trained him because he wanted to & I never had to teach him to play. I osed titbits & toys to do all my training off lead & if only I could have worked him in the obedience ring with his fluffy rabbit he would have been a contender for winning, but it is not allowed ;)

You cannot force a dog to do anything without a lead or physical contact. so those dogs worked with Mary because they wanted to. She is a superb trainer & when Kizzy went out & then back between her legs she was laughing after all dogs sometimes just do their own thing. You only had to se her on the TV program with the guy who had never had a dog & yet she trained them to become a team, a not perfect one but a team 

Lots of people use toys to focus their dogs concentration on & i will be teaching my new puppy the same way one of my cavaliers will carry his toy in the ring even half the chance & he taught himself

I find dogs being stood stacked & held in position to be unnatural & dogs moved on tight fine chokers unnatural far more so that dogs off lead with their owner having fun

My Beardie loves agility but I also include some heelwork to music moves during the freetime at her classes she loves it what can be wrong with a few weaves through the legs instead of the poles and jumping through  your arms instead of hoops!! you can practice inside at home good energy burner and for mental stimulation.

Actuall Mary was doing FREESTYLE heelwork to music as opposed to just ordinary heelwork to music & it you don't like it switch it off

Surely it has to be a good thing for dogs, particularly those who aren't 'worked' :) Do the people who don't like the heelwork play with their dogs ? Surely there is no difference between teaching a dog to herd sheep and doing HWTM :D :D

Daisy

I find dogs being stood stacked & held in position to be unnatural & dogs moved on tight fine chokers unnatural far more so that dogs off lead with their owner having fun
So do I !

it you don't like it switch it off
I did!

Surely there is no difference between teaching a dog to herd sheep and doing HWTM
WHAT??  My goodness, dogs were not designed to prance around on their hind legs, twirl round in circles, run backwards, get totally confused, just so people can watch the spectacle and think its cool!!!!  BORDER COLLIES/WORKING SHEEPDOGS WERE DESIGNED AND BRED TO HERD SHEEP!
Dawn. 

Just analyse what was going on folks - dogs twirling around on their hind legs - 'bowing' to the crowds - jumping through fancy ribbons . Just try substituting the mental picture of dogs with bears, horses and big cats and you have exactly the same tricks being performed at a traditional circus.

I'm not saying that it is cruel and I do recognise the skilll involved but it still kind of leaves me feeling a bit uncomfortable is Crufts really the place to show dogs doing tricks for the amusement of the public ?.

Yvonne

But its ok for dogs to trot round, be pushed and prodded, lips lifted, testicles checked and sat on a bench all day waiting for the aforementioned activities? Don't see the difference bwtween showing and heelwork to music myself :)

Also - does that mean you are anti-agility Trevor?

Well said Chloe!
I dont think they would do anything they didnt want to. They looked to adore there owner.

Checking physical fitness and health seems to be rather different, I think.
:)

but they are only checking for that as part of the actual showing - the parading of a dog around a ring? I fail to see the difference :)

I'm not sure I understand you. Checking for correct movement is part of the checking of the overall fitness for its purpose of a dog - just as at horse shows.

And exactly how many of those dogs are used for that purpose? At least at horse shows some are actually shown as part of their "jobs" - working hunter for example. My point is that dog showing is no different from dog dancing in my opinion....how could it be?

The point is that they should be able to do the job the breed was designed for if need be. Not that they have to do it - after all, you don't take Willis hunting boar, do you? But you want a dog who's capable of it, or you wouldn't have got him.

...and nor do I parade him round a ring in order to see if he compares to a standard that supposedly dictates whether he can hunt wild boar or not! :D

The point is that in my opinion there is no difference bwtween Mary Ray dancing with her dogs and the Final Group judging at Crufts, thats all.

But it's your choice not to have him assessed (or 'paraded around a ring') - I'm sure, being a responsible person who loves the breed, you would if you wanted to use him at stud. That's what showing (at least to very many people) is about.

Yes, of course there are people who get ego-trips out of it, but do they truly love their dogs/stamp collection/show ponies/azalea collection/giant leeks/whatever their fancy has landed on - or do they just need their egos fed?

To many people a dog bouncing backwards on its hindlegs waving its paws is on a par with an elephant standing on its hindlegs - yes, they do do it in the wild, to reach high leaves, but it's not the most natural, comfortable position for a quadruped.

I agree with that with regards to showing and using at stud - that serves a purpose - but I still see no problem with mary Ray and her dogs. They clearly love it and completely enjoy themselves - and surely its about the same strain as agility or flyball places on the dogs?

marys dogs all compete in agility & obedience & work with drive & natural style. im sure she wouldnt do the harder back leg moves if she thought it would injure them

I wonder how many people watch her and try to do the same thing with their pet dogs who might not be so fit and athletic, and end up being damaged?

A fair few I would imagine JG.  Injuries to agility, flyball dogs etc.. are common, in fact one dog recently broke its neck and died instantly having collided with another dog doing flyball.
Dawn.

And working dogs never have accidents then :) :) A friends gundog nearly lost an eye a few weeks ago running through some blackthorn :( And Margot's pup died with it's head in a plastic bag in the bin :(

Daisy

Oh come on... dogs can damage themselves on a walk! Isn't this getting a little out of proportion? The woman dances with her dogs - its hardly a hangable offence. We'll have the govt banning Dancing with Dogs next  :D :D

Or a new law - You shall not have any fun with your dog - only work approved by the dog police :D :D

Daisy

No, I quite agree with you, accidents while working are not uncommon, I mentioned it because I think something like this was "freak" but fatal. 
Dawn.

I may have got this wrong - but I'm sure that someone posted on here a few years ago about one of her dogs dying or being seriously injured as it collided with her other dog in a park - freak as well. Hopefully we only stop our dogs doing things that have a reasonably high degree of risk :)

I enjoy whatever my dogs enjoy doing :)

Daisy

Surely the point is that most of these dogs were bred to work and have active minds and bodies. Since most of them will never be working sheepdogs anything that they enjoy and gets them moving and thinking would be good for them and develop a stronger bond with their owner.

So what about the dogs that get credit cards out of the machine? open doors and press buttons for their owners? Support dogs LOVE their work but it is definately not what they were bred for and could be classed as 'tricks'.

I think what we are all missing here guys is that there is a big difference between circus performing animals and Mary Ray's dogs.  She uses solely reward based training and nothing else.  Circus trained animals are normally trained using punishment types of training, they are on the road almost constantly and kept in stupidly small cages.  Personally it is the treatment the circus animals received that lead to circuses as we all used to know them being stopped.  How anyone can compare Mary Ray's dogs to a circus animal I really don't know. 

Having been to crufts yesterday I saw worse sorts of cruelty involving so called show people who didnt care a tuppence about the dog on the end of the posh choke chain!!!

You cannot force a dog to do anything if it is off lead Mary is simply the one of the best in dog training in more that one area of canine activities

I doubt many of the show dogs could be shown off lead there were far too many tightly strung up dogs in all the groups

Dogs are domesticated animals Lions, Tigers etc are not & have no place in circuses or zoos(unless they are part of a captive breeding program) & the Mary Chipperfields cannot be compared to May Ray

Obedience, agility & flyball are not what any dog was originally bred for so should they be classed as cruel as well ? this is starting to sound like propaganda from PETA who want all domestic pets returned to the wild !

>this is starting to sound like propaganda from PETA who want all domestic pets returned to the wild !

So we must all make sure we don't give them any more ammunition. ;)
:)

So all we should do is have show dogs JG ? It is the show dogs they target BTW as "they have no purpose other than the to boost the ego of the owners"PETA words not mine

they have no purpose other than the to boost the ego of the owners

I think thats statement sums up dancing with dogs too.
Dawn.

The showdogs have no function in most cases & most could not to any work let alone the ones they are supposed to bred to do Don't tell me the Setter is a working gundog ! & the Giant Schnauzer is a fully trained protection dog

Mary doesn't need her ego boosting unlike some people who appear to be just a little envious of her. Her dogs are her life & any normal person can see the enjoyment both get from working together. So they don't work sheep, how many of the 44,000 Labs born last year work to the gun ?  I have no doubt if she wanted to she could train a dog to sheep if I can I'm damn sure she can & do a better job

Are you on commission MM?
DAwn.