My niece has a Border Collie about 10 months old. During the week, her partner drops him off at my sister's where he has an outdoor covered run. Unfortunately, he starts work early, so he can be left at 6am or earlier.

He did have a period where he was barking - we think at birds, so they constructed a cover to flap down the front until my sister gets up later on. They also purchased one of those alarms that squeal when he barks and it appeared to work. He was quiet for about three months.

This last week, he has suddenly started again and the alarm doesn't seem to be working any more. We think it was triggered by the partner deciding to clear up some mud with a broom (puppy decided to do a spot of gardening on the way in :D ). The pup goes mad at brooms, so whether that has triggered him or not back into the bad behaviour, we don't know! This has been going on for three mornings now and the neighbour (an ex police chief) has complained and said he will be writing to the council.

The dog is very hyper and very vocal. I have stayed out of it because I didn't want to interfere, but now that they do want my help and although I am helping them with the problem at home, I am at a loss with this... especially considering the need for a speedy correction!

Has anyone got any ideas please?

It sounds to me as if the dog is very unsettled and needs some training and something to occupy it during the day ie:brain work to make it settlle down. It is a Border Collie and needs to be doing something! How long is it left in the run? Does it go for training and exercise during the day? Would it be possible for the dog to be crate trained for a little while and kept in the house first thing in the morning? If not can it be given a stuffed bone/kong/toy to keep it amused till your sister gets up? Why does your niece give the dog to the sister for the day? Sorry lots of questions, but until we know why we can't really help.

The dog is exercised every day, we all go together to training classes and he has gained his bronze KC Good Citizen Award. He is walked to my sister's before being placed in his run. He is left with bedding, toys, water etc. Basically, this is one spoilt and very loved Mutt :D

It was all worked out before the puppy was purchased that my sister would have the dog during the day as she is at home and my niece and her partner have to work. She is able to devote time to the dog, walking him and playing with him. This was preferable to leaving him at home on his own during the day - she is his own personal dog sitter :)

The dog is crate trained and sleeps in a crate at home happily, but the reason for the outside run was the early hours that he is dropped off. It is too disruptive to go into the house, turn off the alarm, etc. and would disturb people sleeping (not that a barking collie in the garden doesn't anyway!)

My sister gets up around 8am and goes to let him out into the garden...

The thing is that they have already got him quiet once and it worked for a while but suddenly he has started again. He now seems to be ignoring the barking alarm in the run and obviously we need to think of other ways to stop him. We have thought of crating him as a temporary measure, but this doesn't solve the problem and it's likely to re-occur when he's put back into the run.

I hope this answers your queries :)

Could the crate be put in the run with a covering over it to make it dark. Also is there someone around making mischief when they know the dog is there? Just being a suspicious person!:-)

You will end up haveing twoor three choices if you do not stop him very soon. People do not play games when they threaten to write to councils, you can end up with an ASBO or £5000 fine under the noise abatment act and if you are in council property they can make you get rid of it as well.
I have no hesitation in recomending an anti bark collar and eliminate the high risk factor which exists right now. They have saved more dogs from rescues than any psycho mumbo jumbo ever has and you get a 28 day refund if your not happy with it, statics have the best reputation and work well.

If you try one of those behaviourists make sure they aggree to accept payment on results only and give them a time limit (you're on one yourself), they usualy tell people to give the dog a treat after its stopped barking, that teaches the dog to bark for treats, they make a fortune doing that sort of stuff.

The link below is the result of an anti bark collar not being recomended. I hope you act now to save your dog following the example below, just copy and past it into your browser.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=62265

Thanks for the reply. My niece spent an hour with him yesterday, leaving him and trying a rape alarm to stop him, which had a temporary effect. She *did* discover that the alarm they had in the run had stopped working, even though the test button worked so that could have something to do with it. I think we have decided collectively to go for an anti-bark collar and see if it works, we're all at Crufts on Sunday and I guess we'll find one there and be able to ask advice about it's use.

We do realise the seriousness of the situation and that is why we are desperate to find a quick solution. Unfortunately, we are talking about a "well to do" area, not a council estate, which can be MUCH worse! The neighbour making the threats is a well known ex police chief and we are aware that his threats are real. However, my niece went around to their house on Wednesday night and although he wasn't in, she spoke to his wife and explained that they are taking advice and working on a solution. Thankfully, the lady was very happy to allow them time to sort out the problem and accepted that it wouldn't be overnight. Still, we cannot expect their good nature to last forever!

The run has a flap down cover at the front to keep it dark as they were convinced he was barking at birds when the problem originally occured :) I can't se any mischief makers being around that area - especially this early in the morning!!! LOL

My mals have a morning howl that far out sings all others, it's definitely them recalling the pack. Could the BC be doing something similar?

  It could be that the BC has suddenly twigged that run= a family member leaving. I know you know alot about various training methods already so I can't offer any advice, just some thoughts. Perhaps it may be worth your neice taking a couple of days off work, putting the dog in the run but staying at the property for the day, coming & going at various stages. So the BC gets that she's around. It's hard to say if the BC is thinking of your niece as a someone the dog is responsible for (thinking separation anxiety)? If it is something like possible pack hierachy confusion, your niece should start asserting herself a'la mal style for a while ;) 

Yep, my Mals are the same :) However, I think that this is something that has unsettled him as he was perfectly happy for months and has suddenly started up again. He never joins in with my dogs when they get vocal but he tends to use his voice for EVERYTHING!

Oooh it could even be something simple like someone else also going to work early that alerts the BC.

Someone is going to have to set the alarm and get up early or invest in a spycam to find out if there is a source.

LOL More likely to be off for an early round of golf than a day at work! but I get your meaning :) I think the early morning spy is becoming a likely idea.

Does anyone know whether a dog reverts back to bad behaviour if the collar is taken off once the desired effect has been attained?

As far as do they stop bad behaviour permamently goes. Ideally they should be on the dog for about 4 or 5 days before they are used, that's so the dog does not connect the collar with barking and stops for good so to speak. In practice by the time people get them things (including the persons and neighbours stress levels) have reached such a point they just put them on straight away and start to use them, the dog knows its to do with the collar and usually stops when the collar is on (conditioned stimulus) and may well start if the collar is not on, when you put the collar on they dont bark.

The two types are the static and the Abiostop citronella spray by Dynavet, the citronella has a poor reputation for three reasons, 1. it goes off if other dogs bark, if the dog shakes and even if the car drive is a bit bumpy they go off, very unreliable and often do not go off at all, which means the dog might not connect it with barking and simply barks through it, 2. They don't work hardly at all if it's a dog which does not ruffle or strong willed they only work for a short time and then the dog ignores them. 3. The citronella is an eye, respiratory and skin allergy hazard, some of  the spray goes into the eyes as well as thousands of droplets potentially damaging the millions of olfactory cells in the nose. You can use a water spray but these only work for a very short while at all on quiet dogs.
The static is best. The latest is an Innotek automatic, they have many different levels (the Abiostop does not) the stimulation starts on the bottom level and lasts 1/40th of a second, it's the surprise part of it "here now-gone now, what was that?" type of effect which makes them work. The automatic starts on the bottom level, very few dogs feel anything at these lower levels, each time the dog barks it goes up very slightly, once the dog stops it automatically sets at the level. It rarely takes more then three sensations to stop the dog. Statics outsell the spray collars over 50/1 in the UK and the Abiostop is being withdraw from the UK market and I think also the Master Plus is being withdraw as well. So is the other spray collar the Canadian one called 'The spray Commander'.
The automatic one is called the Innotek. You can get them from http://www.john-humphris.co.uk/
The link below is the health hazards of citronella

MSDS Citronella

http://msds.farnam.com/msds/m001167.htm

http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/msds/md100301.html

http://libertynatural.com/msd/355.htm

http://libertynatural.com/msd/22.htm

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=6010019

http://msds.farnam.com/msds/m000773.htm

A 'e' (as in electric!) collar can also encourage the dog to think 'that hurt! - who did it, I'd like to kill them.......'  Or 'my doG, it's a nasty world out there, I think I'll just stay on my bed, I don't get hurt that way'......  I don't know about you OP - but I want more from my relationship with my dog than to be torturer and victim......

Just a thought ;) could there be a bitch in the area, who is in season? :D when Spice had her 1st season the 'dawn chorus' around here was a mix of all breeds, some barking and the rest howling!
Jacqueline :)

OK here's a quote from someone else who tried an electric collar to stop their dog barking - dog is a 2 year old English Bull Terrier.

(the electric collar)
"....made him worse, when I put it on the lowest level he went mad trying to attack his neck and bite it and barking the whole time, so I turned it up and he got worse the more i did it, even at the highest level it didn't seem to stop him barking just made him angry, I can't use the collar now because even if i press the button to give a warning tone he boes ballistic".

So i guess they really work -not.

I was interested to hear the other collars are being withdrawn - i know someone from the Company of Animals so i will ask her about it. As for the health hazards of citronella - luckily i am a qualified aromatherapist so i tend to take scaremongering with a pinch of salt. I wouldn't recommend using citronella for different reasons, because the scent stays around, not because it is allegedly "dangerous".

Lindsay

Dennis Carthy - it IS you isn't it - you were banned from this board a while ago.

Lindsay

Dennis, you really should stop spamming Cd with your pushing of the E collar. I know Malakai who started this thread and she is after genuine help and NOT have this thread turn into one of your endless *debates* about E collars

:)

Going back to what the thread was about, is it possible something in the environment has changed? Foxes, cats, early working people?

Banya is getting used to 3 new cats next door - and is much more hyper than usual because she can hear their bells! She is barking at unusual hours -have to try to desensitise her to the bells but need to get just the right tone of cat bell!!!

I did try a bell from the Lindt chocolate bunny but it wasn't the correct pitch :D

I think once you know what is causing the problem, it will be much easier to take steps to prevent the barking in the first place :)

Lindsay
X

Oh yes those silly stories about these collars do get put out but the fake stories, such as the one repeated about the bull terrier, are always easy to spot, they have hallmarks which identify them immediately, they are known as,  'never neverland stories'. 

1. they NEVER ever mention the brand name of the collar or the year the so called 'incident' took place which means no manufacturer can check if the story is true and if the item was still in warranty and more importantly: If the story is not true the manufacturer can successfully sue the individual who put the story out and get an order for them to make a public apology and retraction. So the story ALWAYS omits the make of the collar.
2. Never never stories NEVER mention the retail outlet, because if the story turns out not to be true the retailer could sue and demand a public apology and retraction.
3. more conspicuous the individual NEVER mentions they immediately took the collar back at the earliest possible moment to see if it was faulty and claim bot a refund AND compensation which ANY  normal reasonable person does with ANY type of faulty goods does as routine.

In the case of the Bull Terrier owner with the mysterious unknown make of collar the story itself shows all the signs of a work of total fiction.

Quote.
"....made him worse, when I put it on the lowest level he went mad trying to attack his neck and bite it"

So at the LOWEST level the dog showed signs something was wrong "went mad" and started "attacking his neck"
Now ask yourself, if this happened would you be worried? Would you take it off to see what was wrong? Would you at least phone or go back to the retailer to say what was happening?  t

Well our mysterious friend with the Bull Terrier, oh no, seeing (according to them ) their dog reacting in the way described at the lowest level >"mad trying to attack his neck and bite it"< they did what (according to the story) no other half witted person would ever do-

Quote - "so I turned it up and he got worse"

Not surprising (if true) the dog got worse, it is supposed to have gone mad at the lowest level and quite obviously it would get worse (if true) if you turned it up, but, our mysterious friend could not work that one out for him/herself.
Now, the next step in the never never fable states:

"even at the highest level it didn't seem to stop him barking just made him angry even at the highest level it didn't seem to stop him barking just made him angry, "

Well, well, well yet another very important fact in the fable is missing - manual anti bark static collars have between 8 to 16 levels - so (if true) after the mysterious bull terrier owner  turned it up once and made the dog worse (if true) he/she continued turning it up another 7 to 16 individual times and NEVER whilst all this was 'supposedly' happening did he/she EVER call the retailer and ask the obvious question "I have been doing 'this' - 'this' is how the dogs reacting-am I doing the right thing?".....but if a normal reasonable person buys ANY electrical goods and everything seems to be going wrong the check it out straight away-not our mysterious friend!

Which leaves the next final chapter in our mysterious friends fable, relayed here.
Quote: "can't use the collar now because even if i press the button to give a warning tone he goes ballistic".

So now he cannot use the collar at all, the dog (if true) goes ballistic at the tone, and the person has NEVER done what everyone else does with unsatisfactory equipment (1) it never worked- (2) he can't use it-(3) he keeps it (4)  instead of getting a refund as everyone else would he keeps it for NO reason at all-it cannot be used-well that is IF the story relayed is true, if anyone can believe something as far fetched as the fable relayed above. Obviously he was new to the collar and the collar would have been new.

Nope to far fetched, you are better to ignore these people Lindsay unless they are prepared to name the make of collar they make it up. I mentioned Innotek, there are no problems and they have sold millions of them so as Innotek was not mentioned stay with Innotek .
Please find out and name the collar Lindsay: I will then get in touch with the collar manufacturer and they will not hesitate to establishing facts,if the person relaying the story cannot name a manufacturer then the story is fake.
I look forwards to knowing the make and model. For the record, in 12 months  Jan 2004 to Jan 2005, 3800 are known to have been sold by UK retailers in the UK, an unknown number were imported and no one has offered any evidence against them just benefits. The government studied all these collars and not one single case of any adverse reaction has been established and the government is satisfied with them, can that be said for any other equipment?

As we all know ant social barking is a serious problem and only a tiny, tiny minority of the population owns dogs at all. In this BC case the real problem is not barking, it is a local social problem. Only one of the local population has been up front and said what he will do, others will say nothing just call the council. Hundreds of thousands of dogs all over the UK are already suffering in rescues and barking all day long because of the severe stress experienced in rescues, they then get re-homed only to pass it on to the next owner.

The dog below could have been saved by an anti bark, instead it ended up in the usual disaster with continuing welfare problems.
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=62265

I really don't think using a collar will be much help in this situation. BC's are very sensitive dogs and the use of a collar here may make the dog scared of the run or of being left. He could be barking through insecurity or lonliness (Maybe even the cold?) but scaring him everytime he barks may not be the answer. If you really need to use a collar please use the aboistop, as this only emits a smelly spray, which if it were me, i would certaily prefer that to an electric shock, no matter how small.
Could he be bored? Perhaps giving him a stuffed kong or activity ball (with treats in) would keep him occupied for a short while until your sister gets up.

Dennis, you are trolling :rolleyes:

Lindsay

Good point - the late lammented (NOT) Dennis was a big fan of Innotek wasn't he ?

E collars are an absolutely disgusting invention,and they are just BAND AIDS to the problem,do they address WHY the dog is barking,NO.So they really arent fixing the real problem,are they?

The OP needs to find out why the dog is barking in the first place,there has got to be a reason,perhaps loneliness??

DAve if you want to be a Lazy trogg and whack an electrocuting collar on your dog everytime it talks,then so be it.There are no easy,quick ways to fix these kinds of problems. Useing those ridiculous things is the lazy,easy way out.How can anyone who claims to love their dog want to hurt it!!!

Rose, the OP is a friend of mine and she actually says that they don't really know why the dog began barking again ...but they THINk it may be donw the the broom incident

Thanks to all who have replied.

I respect your view Davedee, but I'm afraid a shock collar really isn't an option we would like to follow.

The problem seems to have been restarted after my niece's partner used a broom to sweep some mud from the path. For months before this he was settled, but we know that he chases brooms, vaccuums, pretty much anything that moves! The audible bark alarm in his run has been found to be faulty, so when he barked at the broom there was no beeping.

The garden is surrounded by high hedging, trees and fencing and is completely enclosed. Although there is a golf course opposite, I don't think that any fox would find a thoroughfare through the garden. The idea that there may be a bitch in season is one that we hadn't thought of... we'll make enquiries. As for cats, it's not really a cat neighbourhood. Nothing has changed for a while as far as we are aware - the neighbours are quite static and most are retired or work from home. The houses are spaced well apart, so only the nearest nieghbours will be disturbed by this barking - although of course, noise carries early in the morning!

He is left with bedding, toys - one being one of those balls with the treats inside and water. I will have to talk to my niece to answer other questions that have been posed, but thanks to all who are trying to help :)