It all went downhill yesterday afternoon, Callia started to get lathargic and just wasn't her normal self and I also noticed some green mucus dripping out of her nose :( So I rang round the local vets (had to change for obvious reasons) and got her in straight away.

I gave the vet her history so far, she did all the usual physical checks and told me that she wasn't running a temperature and everything seemed ok I told her about the mucus and the mucusy stools and she said from the description it sounded like a mild case of collitus but she wouldn't swear to it. Seeing as she wasn't dehydrated and still had a good appetite there was no panic but she said that she would prescribe antibiotics any way to be on the safe side I asked what could have caused the collitus and she said "how long have you got?" I then went into vaccinosis, explaining I had experienced it before, just co-incidence she said and as expected, she wasn't having any of it! Her opinion was that either she had picked it up through an infection or some sort or it was dietry intolerance. But didn't ask what diet she was on   She asked about worming and wasn't impressed when I said I did it herbally. Her words, "you can never overworm a pup at this age". After a lot of disagreement, I left.

My H/pthic vet finally got back to me last night and after telling her the whole story, plus symptoms, her opinion is that because I started her on Nosodes and then had the first Jab done, the Nosodes have reacted to the vacs and are trying to clear the system out, hence the illness. She said it shows her immune system is working and as her temperature and appetite are normal it's something less to worry about. She said NOT to take her back for the second jab next week, use the Nosodes again for the next 2 days and to clear the system through, and she is sending some tincture and pilules out today, priority delivery to clear her entire system out. Keep with the light diet and expect it to get worse before it gets better. She also asked why the vet hadn't done a swab of her nose mucus to see what was causing it BEFORE she suggested a/biotics as how did she know what ones to prescribe if she wasn't sure what the bacteria was!

So, the result is a very sorry for itself pup, who is still eating revenously but has a long way to go. I could kick myself as it's all my fault, I wish I'd had the confidence to go with my gut instinct and not vaccinate :(

OMG poor little thing. I cant believe all of those vets who really dont give a damn, to the extent that they dont even examine properly. I have to say that as a pup Hook had dreadful tummy problems and that started after jabs, but was put down to diet and scavenging.

Keep us posted, thinking of you Jan

Thank you Jan :)

Oh my gosh,my thoughts are with you and your precious baby :)

These vets make me so angry at times,the first thing i thought while reading your post was " i wonder what the swab will come back as" and the vet didnt even do one!!!!

Hairypooch please dont blame yourself for this,you were not to know that she would react to the vaccine,i'm very glad to hear you wont be taking Callia back for the second jab! Your homeopath will guide you through this stressful time.

Please keep us updated and i so hope your girl gets well soon. XX

HI HP,

Poor Callia and poor you :(  Try not to blame yourself for not going with your first instincts - we can all be wise after the event (it's often a specialty of mine :rolleyes: )

It's good news that you have someone you trust on board now with the Homeopath but is not also worth asking for a referral from your vet to a specialist at your local vet hospital?  I'm disgusted that such a young puppy who is clearly out of sorts in her behaviour and who has clinical symptoms of a problem is being fobbed off because she doesn't have a temperature   Particularly when you are able to explain that you've been down this route before - you would think they'd respect your judgement

Will say a prayer for your little girl that things improve soon.  Give her a gentle {hug}

Teri :)

Hi Teri,

After questioning her judgement and arguing my corner on Vaccinosis, she said to me "so how long did you spend at vet college before you dropped out?" I said, "Oh I love a vet with a sense of humour, and sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"!!! :rolleyes:

If the H/pathic remedies don't work, (they did with Monsterman, but I know each dog is different) I will try to get a Vet referal, trouble is, I'm running out of Vets that I haven't offended and of course, no vet will refer until I cave in and give the anitbiotics and now, wormers. Makes my blood boil, all of the vets I've seen in this area think they're god

I've just spoken to my friend/ breeder and he's in agreement with everything I've done so far, he's saying that I should stick to chicken, white fish, odd bit of rice and split the food down into eighths. I have been cutting portions down but she looks at me with those big black eyes and barks constantly at me because the portions I'm giving her are an insult :rolleyes: She's now losing a little bit of weight but I need to firm up the stools before I can work on putting the goodness back, I know this, god, you'd think I hadn't ever been down this route before but I still don't learn. :(

Nosodes are a problem at the moment for me to administer, she DETESTS having them put in her mouth, so far I've had a bleeding nose where she stuck her claw up it and I now look like I've gone 2 rounds with a boxer and she's biting me like a thing possessed :P And now of course, I'm the big bad ogre who puts her in a neck lock when she's not feeling well, and to top it all I'm trying to starve her and I shout at everyone who comes within 2 feet of me, except the dogs (she hates shouting) and I don't give her tasty treats any more for doing her business outside.

Don't know whether to laugh or cry, wish their was an icon for "hysterical" :D :D (mad, satanic grinning will have to do)

Sounds like time to dig out the Yellow Pages - settle down with the old Peach Schnapps :D of course - and work on your investigative skills in finding a vet who doesn't think he/she is the Almighty  :P

Fingers crossed,
Teri ;)

You should see my dustbin Teri, I'm keeping Schnapps in business at the moment :D :D And the vets :P

I think I'll look for straight jackets while I'm at it, what section would they be under?  :D

I would report it as scientists are always hungry for information and hopefully with the full case notes they can make something of it one way or another.  Having had a dog who suffered colitis from a young age, I must say, it does sound rather like it, which of course is going to happen to some pups, vaccination or not :) No temperature would usually indicate no infection but it sounds as though the vet offered antibiotics as you were obviously very concerned.  The trouble with swabs is they take about 5-7 days to culture and ascertain sensitivity to a range of antibiotics and as it only takes about 3 days to observe an improvement on the correct antibiotic giving the most common antibiotic for the most likely bacteria (which will depend on where the infection is seated) is perhaps a reasonable judgement albeit based on guesswork although often a swab will be taken as well incase the most common turns out not to be the best one.
My Dandie continued to have colitis throughout her life but we managed it very well once we discovered a suitable diet for her :)

Thank you for your POV on it Isabel :)

I fully understand and agree to a certain extent with what you say but I still won't be giving the antibiotics, I have been down this route before with my other one 2 yrs ago with antibiotics as well and it just made a bad situation worse. Thankfully we had a happy outcome with him and I'm willing to try the same treatment again :)

Many years ago my mother owned a rescue dog with colitis and she was very bad with it, including bleeding on frequent occasions. I really don't remember how it was treated, just that is was very nasty and as she was a nervous dog anyway, it used to rear its ugly head in times of stress, like moving.

Callia had taken very well to her diet and she didn't have any abnormal motions whatsoever before the Vaccs, I take my dogs motions very seriously :D Unfortunately, I have been here before, almost textbook copy but without the nasty abcess that went on for 3 months (touch wood) and am more convinced than ever.

I wouldn't be giving the ABs either, there doesn't seem any sign of infection and they are likely to irritate a gut even more.  As you say colitis often flares up following stress which opens up another posibility that merely the visit to vets may have contributed.  As a homoeopathy atheist I would also suggest stopping the struggles to get the nosodes down her and either look for another way or forget it but I guess I would be pushing my luck on that one ;).

Im so sorry you havent managed to find a decent vet in your area.
Im going to have a similar problem when i move later in the year as i will be forced to use Evolution, the "here you go, this will do your dog no good at all but it gets us £120 out of you" vets. Im not looking forward to it.

I don't see anything to suggest this is not a decent vet, medicine is not a finite science some of it is educated guess, on that basis you are not obliged to share their opinion but that does not make them not a decent vet.

Hi Isabel,

Because I'm following the H/pathic vets advice to the letter, I have continued with the Nosodes, thankfully she doesn't now need anymore until next week :)

I'll continue with the pulules and tincture as there has been a slight improvement already (this may be coincidence, but I don't think so) and of course moniter very carefully. But obviously if I'm in any doubt, I will always go back to the vet :)

I glad she is improving :) they are so dependant on us it really hurts when they are not well doesn't it.

Just a thought, and after such a long spell it may be difficult but have you stopped feeding for at least 24 hours? Sometimes the stomach needs time with nothing in it to heal. I know it will be absolute torture for both of you. I tried starving a Lab - I even found Hubby sneeking him snacks, cos he felt sorry for the poor starving creature :o  

Hi is there a test for vaccinosis? I know there is a test (titer) I think its called before you get the yearly booster, I had a similar problem 2 weeks after my dog had his booster he was vomiting and a jelly like poo with blood in it, we took him to the vets he had no temperature and was eating fine, my vet told me the same colitis and took some blood tests and I was told to stop his food, he ran the blood tests him self and could not see anything wrong, a few days later he stopped been sick but he poo was the same bloody jelly I took him back to the vets when they gave me some tablets to firm his poo and was told to give him chicken & pasta 4 small meals a day and 2 tablets twice a day and bring him back in a couple of days, that evening I gave him the tablets and his dinner and again in the morning and he went on a hype and couldn't stop scratching I looked but couldn't see anything wrong I phoned the vet and asked if he could be reacting to the tablets and they said no and his hyper ness maybe because he's feeling better so I just went on as usual he had come in from playing out the back and was bleeding from his sides where he was scratching his skin was bright red and blistered all over to took him straight back he told me it was a reaction they took some more blood and told me to give him his normal food just in case it was the chicken or rice he gave him some shampoo and an injection to settle his skin which didn't work, a few days later we went back for the test results and they showed they was a liver problem and we had to come back for more blood test the next morning where they would keep him in for a few hours and do two tests 1 without any food for 12 hours and 1 with food after a few hours anyway they done the tests and put him on antibiotics and chicken & rice as he was sure his skin was down to the liver, a few days later the vet phoned me to say the test had come back and he was pleased that they were nearly normal again where before they were very high but I have to keep him on this diet for a while, its now been 2 weeks and he's just had another blood test to see if he's all clear I wont know for a few days yet but I asked him about his booster 2 weeks earlier and could it be due to over vaccination he said there is no way to be sure if this could of caused it but next year to do a blood test first, but the more I read about the problems people are having with vaccinations the more I think this is what's happened to my dog, sorry it's a long story but I wanted to see what people think about it and if there is a test for it?

Hi hairypooch, 

To help firm up the stools, you could add a little pectin to the food.  That's the concentrated apple juice you get in bottles in the health food shop / supermarket to help jam set.  When my Weimaraner is really loose, I just give her a teaspoon, so don't give too much or you could clog her up!

I know that homeopathic remedies are meant to be given away from food, clean palate etc, but in practice with a difficult dog, they do still work even if that's not strictly adhered to.  My first girl was a nightmare to get them down, so I know what it's like.  If neccessary, you could put them in with her food, preferably bland, and as that's what she's having at the moment, that's easy.  They can also go in the water, either crushed between 2 teaspoons or whole, they'll dissolve.

This girl takes them off a little dish - I just drop one on it and she generally licks it off no bother.

Hope you get her sorted soon, sending Reiki.

Yes Nettie, there is a titre test I believe that tests for antibodies in the blood. I can't comment on it as I have never gone down this route so don't know much, if anything about it :)

I don't boost my older 2 dogs and never will, they will continue on the Nosodes as will my pup. I am not getting the 2 jab done, after all the damage that the first one has caused, I am following my gut instinct on this one.

I know that this is a very contentious subject and I would never advocate that anyone else does the same. But I feel it's right for me ;) My breeder of 30 years also doesn't vaccinate for the very same reasons that I have experienced, this doesn't make it right or wrong but the more people that I speak to on this subject and not just on this board, the more it makes question it. When all of this has cleared up, I am going to be very busy trying to find answers :)

I think the titre test tells you that the body has reacted to the vaccine, which of course is the desired effect, I am not sure if a different test tells you if the reaction has caused an over reaction.
I think it is very hard for an individual to decide if a vaccine has been damaged, it takes data from a great deal more cases than one to find any answers, the collecting of losts of case notes is obviously useful and therefore all suspected adverse reactions should be reported but then they would need to be compared to the likelyhood of those conditions occured anyway.  All pharmacutical drugs cause a change in the body, no change, no point, so reaction also have to be examined for severity for instance I have commonly had puppies suffering from lethargy and generally being a bit off but I would not class that as an adverse reaction.
When something a bit more severe happens it is very upsetting and I could well see that you would not want to risk anything further happening to your puppy Hairpooch, but if it helps I will tell you that although it is, of course, possible that vaccination sparked of Nellies colitis (it was 16 years ago so I don't remember the exact time relationship with her initial vaccinations) and she had some severe episode as a youngster when I seriously thought I would use her, once we found a diet that suited her the condition was very well managed with only minor flare ups some of which I would attribute to stress she never suffered from any other illness and lived to over 15 years of age.  So if I was doing it all over again I would choose to vaccinate and, as I see it, protect her from anything more serious.

>So if I was doing it all over again I would choose to vaccinate and, as I see it, protect her from anything more serious. <

This is what I thought about the pup Isabel :), Murfee had his first jabs (although it caused serious health probs) Ella has her first ones with severe adverse reaction, but all of my previous dogs had all their vaccinations without trouble. I was a firm believer in Vaccination until the last, now 3, experiences.

The pup was done because I felt I owed it to her to have the initial protection, despite my unease at doing it and I thought, well it happened twice before, surely it couldn't happen again......and it seems it has :(

I just wonder how often it happens and people don't question it and are fobbed off by their vets for whatever reason. I still have a great deal of respect for the Vetinary profession, it's just on this subject I am very sceptical. I have the same distrust of Doctors, having been on the receiving end of mis-diagnosis and sheer ignorance and laziness.

You say it seems to have happened again and maybe it has but don't loose sight of the fact that puppies, not even rarely, get stomach upsets and colitis whether vaccinated or not :)
On the subject of misdiagnosis, this is going to happen occasionally because a certain amount of guesswork is sometimes needed.  My view is when I seek a professional opinion I should get an opinion based on the majority view within the profession so therefore so long as that diagnosis is based on what the majority of the profession would have concluded, from the available evidence, I would not necessarily loose faith if that first diagnosis turned out to be wrong of course not having any veterinary qualification I often won't know if they have given me the majority view but have acted in some quirky, maverick way in which case I might choose to seek a second opinion but in most cases I think I would be happy for my vet or doctor to look for the next most common cause.  The last thing I would do is look for the professional who operates in a quirky maverick way in the first place :)

Our first Cavalier died within three weeks of having his booster & was ill from the day he was vaccinated

I had a PM done by a forensic scientist(who I was at university with) who found conclusive evidence that the illness was vaccine induced. The vaccine company poo poo's the PM results as they were not done by a vet They were however done by one of the senior Home office's forensic scientists & she is a professor ! & she had assistance from a senior DEFRA Veterinary surgeon who agreed the results of her findings.

I no longer vaccinate my dogs & their titre levels show that non are needed

Could the assisting vet send a report in.

He did & it too was disregarded & in fact the Vaccine company were downright nasty to him & asked him how much he had been paid for agreeing the "falsified"(the vaccine company's words) findings ! The FS is still pursuing the matter through legal channels, but the vaccine company are using every stalling device possible !

I have never filled in one of these reports but I always imagined the vet reported findings to be looked at by veterinary experts in that field rather than an actual diagnosis.  The FS may be a professor in human medicine and I am sure is capable of putting in a good report of a postmortem with a very accurate discription of the organs, blood assays,  copies of slides etc. but dogs suffer from different diseases to us and therefore receive vaccines she will not have a great deal of experience of with side effects she will not have a great deal of experience of.  It will be interesting to hear the outcome of the legal case.

Yes, puppies are vunerable to all sorts of things Isabel :) But I have had 3 perfectly robust and healthy dogs before they were vaccinated and then things went rapidly, within hours, downhill, fast afterwards :(

As we have said on here, countless times before, there needs to be indepth analysis done on dogs that have suffered alleged Vaccine damage and I say alleged in my case, as I can't get one vet to agree with me on it. I also would very much appreciate genuine, unbiased, research done into Nosodes and homeopathy in general :)

We all go on our lifes experiences, that is partly how we learn ;) it doesn't always mean that we are right and should hold a rigid opinion on anything, but in this case, I am less open to having an objective point of view because of my experiences with myself and dogs so far :)

I definately think puppies are affected by vaccines, but its the severity of the reaction and the balance with the benefits that I feel is important.
On the subject of homoeopathy interestingly there happens to be a report in todays Telegraph of a study done by the University of Toronto and the Max Born Institute in Berlin published in Nature journal on the underlying rationale of homoepathy, their results seem to make it look a bit shakey :)  Haven't checked out how independent this study is but the University sounds Kosher to me :).
PS Have you read the Pooch report published by the Animal Health Trust (you can find it on their web site) on vaccination damage, I felt it was very reassuring.

I've had a quick look at the report thanks Isabel :) I will look at it more indepth later when I finally get some peace :P

I'm afraid that it didn't reassure me, I know it was an independent study but out of the questionaires sent out, they received/used just over 4000 to come to their conclusion that vaccinations were safe. I don't feel this is a good or fair representation of all vaccinated dogs in the UK, considering how many there are. Not sure what the UK dog population is at present but doesn't it run into millions?

I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject. :) I respect your views and they are very thought provoking, there is no way I am saying that all dogs will suffer adverse reactions from Vaccs, just that I am not doing it again for the reasons stated in previous posts. :)

I never did like the "additives" that were included in Vaccines when I was vaccinating, ie, mercury, aluminium, and formaldyhide (SP?) My dogs smelt strange for days, including Callia recently. These are not natural substances so it can't be very healthy putting into their bodies. :) (JMO from a laymans POV )

Gosh I think 4000 is a really good sample size I think most researchers would be delighted with that achievement :) you are never going to get a study of the entire population, finding the money to do it would be prohibitive alone its normal practice to select a random few and extrapolate it up, obviously the greater the sample the greater the accuracy.

I've also read the report in the Telegraph, Isabel, and think it seems balanced. As I read it, they're not saying that homoeopathy doesn't work, but that water holding a memory has nothing to do with it. It must work through some other method.
:)

Yes it examines the rationale that has always been offered, as you say it must work some other way.......if it works at all ;) I'm sure further studies will ensue :)

Hi Jan :)

I have considered this, but we have a slight improvement today, although slightly jelly like, her stools are a lot firmer, she's on the H/pathic pulules and tincture and her whole persona and smell are vastly improved :)

I have been splitting her food down into very small portions and feeding about 8 times a day (fish and chicken with the odd vegetable) but as she is such a little carnivore and loves her raw meat, it is beginning to get very boring for her. She's still on her probiotic capsules as well, and the flatulence has subsided. But I was getting to the stage where if it wasn't improving I was going to starve for 24hrs, lets hope I don't have to, otherwise one of us will be leaving home :D

i hope your little girl gets well soon, my boy seems to be on the mend now just waiting for his tests to come back maybe today, i do think this is all down to his booster he's never been unwell before i will make sure he gets the titre test next year :-)

Hi Nettie, hope your boy continues to improve :) It's so horrible and heartbreaking when they're ill :(

Good luck with him :)

i do wonder why vets are so *resistant* in filling out these forms when things go wrong with vaccinations.Could it be that yearly boosters and vaccinations in general are one of their biggest money makers?Think of the repurcussions if word got out to the general public that dogs are dying or getting gravely ill from vaccinations,definately NOT in the vets best interest,never mind the poor dogs and their owners who have to go though it! :(

Imagine all the dogs who have died or got sick from vaccinosis that we have never even heard about,when their vet brushes it under the carpet and says it's got nothing to do with the vaccination and the owners believe them!

I think if we resort to imagining stuff the skies the limit :) 

I mean I don't think imagining will ever have the value of evidence.  I would imagine that all vets are decent, honest people who would not dream of pushing something that is important to the health and wellbeing of dogs under the carpet but I don't suppose that has any more relevance.

Glad to hear things are looking a bit better today. 

Jo, I have only just read your thread. So sorry that Callia is still poorly. It sound as though you are doing the right thing by her. I am a firm believer in alternative therapies and use them on myself, family and pets! I do still use conventional medicines as well, but only when I feel it is totally necessary. Im sure the homeopathic treatment will do the job. Speak to you soon.

Julia

We have success :) Thurs night all seemed ok, all day yesterday was perfectly normal and so far.......today is continuing on the same lines :)

Whether she would have improved anyway, without her H/pathic remedy, I don't know, but it's good enough for me and it was good enough for me when Monsterman was at his lowest ebb. Just relieved that she's back to her normal self, and eating like a horse, all I've got to do now is put some weight back on her.

Thank you everybody that gave advice and sympathy, it really does help to get other objective points of view on these things :)