Please say it's not true that people still drown the 'runt' of the litter?

I've read it in a couple of places now and it makes me so sad :'(

Why would they do that? surely the vet would put the puppy to sleep if it was not going to survive and was suffering, or am i wrong?

not sure about runts but puppy farmers do with pups they cant sell and oldies they want to get rid of :(

Well if they do it is definelty illegal.  Comes under the heading of "causing unecessary suffering" without doubt.  Remember the woman who lost the plot last year and drowned a litter in the kitchen sink becasue they were getting too much to deal with?  Cant remember her sentence, but definetly convicted.
bye
Gwen

I was recently walking past a farm on holiday and the farmers wife came out to talk too us and stroke our dalmatians when she mentioned that her husband was "disposing" of some unwanted pups, so I went round the corner to give him hell and discovered he'd already drowned all but one of them. When I asked him what he planned on doing with it he said "well nobody is going to pay good money for a freak like this are they?" It turns out he thought it was a freak because he is a blue merle with fawn eyebrows and fawn feathering on his legs (he is long coated), so I bawled him out, took the puppy home and phoned the RSPCA. The only good thing out of this is now I have a lovely new member of the family

how sad for the other pups well done for rescuing yours some people are so cruel the farmers the freak.

That is terrible, how old are they, are the eyes open?  I hope the RSPCA will take action I presume you are willing to witness to it.

I am willing to do whatever it takes to get the appropriate action taken agianst this man. Merlins baby blues were open but to be honest i don't think (from what i could gather) that the farmer had taken any notice of them until they were old enough to sell and they were kept in a stable block. I just feel bad thatI couldn't do anything for the other pups

I would be really pushing the RSPCA to do something about this, it can't be very often that an independent witness is available and the publicity of a conviction would be terrific publicity warning others against such action.

I cant understand how anyone could actually hold a dog down under water - have they no compassion? I would think a bang on the head would be kinder if they really have to do it (not that i agree it has to be done, but you know what i mean) :(

Lindsay
X

I dare say a few suffer that fate as well :(

Having many farming relations in Scotland/Borders I'm aware that it is common practice. As awful as it is they will not pay vet fees on something they can do/and have done for generations themselves :(

I have a few farming friends back in Yorkshire and they think nothing of drowning the odd pup.

It used to be much more common practice. What was it someone said earlier about the old fashioned ways.....?

It's routine for the farm cats kittens too. They only want a controlled number of farm cats to keep on top of rodents, not colonies. Neutering/spaying? They'd laugh in your face.
As I said it's just not cost effective.

I dont understand this how could you hold a small defenless(sp) animal in water till it drowns hopefully this person walks out of his drive tomorrow and gets hit by a bus. Or maybe someone gives them a taste of their own medicine.
Mary

My Mum told me it was a large water barrel, they'd put the kittens or pups in a bag, place them inside and put the lid on :(  I just hope as younger generations grow up and take over the farming, this will be equally abhorrent to them as it is to most :(

I think a successful prosecution might make the present generation wise up to what is acceptable in the modern world.

I known lots of farmers in Yorkshire & none of them drown puppies or kittens The CPL regularly home neutered cats that cannot be homed in the domestic situation &a lot are from feral colonies that cannot be safely returned(homes destroyed etc)

There are a lot less "accidental" litters of puppies born on farms than in the towns. Especially as there are now DNA tests to prove paternity of puppies(a recent case saw an ISDS member censured for allowing his bitch to be mated to a dog other than the one recorded with the ISDS)

Not all farmers are saints but then neither are townsfolk

Trust me I love my farming relations, live in the country myself. I've also been held by the throat by a farmer in a dispute over ferals. Most Farmers were happy to rehome problem cats for me when I worked for the CPL, but not all.

Well my nearest neighbour is a traditional farmer & two weeks ago he found a boxer of cross bred puppies dumped on his land near one of his ewe paddocks(in the snow !!!) Did he drown them ? Well he should have done according to you Spook but no his wife & eldest son have been handrearing them & have contacted a private all breed rescue who will help with rehousing & this farmer breeds ISDS BCs from time to time

Where does it say according to me he should've drowned them? Good grief :rolleyes:  Please re-read the entire thread and tar someone else with the animal cruelty brush!

My sister had a Deerhound and she said a breeder will only keep the number of pups that have been prebooked anymore over that they get rid of. I dont know how they do it but it is true.
Im not saying all the breeders do this but many of them do.

Sharon in breeds that it is not easy to find knowledgeable homes for (many large dighthounds come to mind) it is responsible for a breeder to cull a litter to the number of pups there are going to be homes for as ungortunately they tend to have rather large litters. 

The breeders that I know who take this course have their pups Put to sleep within hours of birth by their vet.  One particular lady I have known for some years only breeds once every five years to keep the next generation. 

Many show Greyhound breeders also breed rarely as the racing bred dogs swell the recue homes, adn most would prefer that those got a chance of pet homes.

Oh here we go. MM strikes again.....

< I just hope as younger generations grow up and take over the farming, this will be equally abhorrent to them as it is to most  >

It was an example of how some older farmers behave & the question was rhetorical as you appear to expect farmers to drown unwanted puppies

As for thedark
<Oh here we go. MM strikes again.....> so what does that mean ? That I am lying I presume Jeez you do like to rile people You appear to know a lot about the county in which I live(but not necessarily the same Riding)
<I have a few farming friends back in Yorkshire and they think nothing of drowning the odd pup. It used to be much more common practice. What was it someone said earlier about the old fashioned ways.....?>

If you want to PM me the details of these farming friends who drown their unwanted dogs I'll pass the information on to the appropriate authorities(as it's a criminal offence)& I'm sure sure they will be round there asap & if that fails I'll pass the info on to an old friend who works as a freelance investigative Journalist. It would be good to uncover these criminals animal abusers

lol
My gawd, you honestly believe i would hand over such information? Lol!

Can you just clarify some things for me, thedark? 

a) Do you actually find this repugnant and illegal behaviour amusing? 

and b) How can you even contemplate protecting the identity of anyone involved in something like this?

Teri

Well you too are involved by covering up a criminal offence & are an accomplice after the event in law

Of course you wouldn't 'fess up anyone even if it would  prevent other pups being disposed of in the same way . We don't do such antisocial things in the UK as give up criminals to the law do we ?<<< another rhetorical question BTW

I wouldnt give such information over the internet is what i ment.
I do think this inhumane, it is abhorrent to me not that i should have to answer to you.
The thing is i do not have any evidence so could not present anything to the RAPCA, poilce or anyone else. I dont go round taking photographs on private property, i would be locked up myself!

No I wasnt saying they were drownd I dont know how it is done. It is wrong though. If they purposely breed that dog give pups life then kill them how can that be.
If thats the case they shouldnt go ahead and breed unless they have planned homes for 8 or more pups

There's also the point that nobody should go ahead and breed if they're not prepared to cull an over-sized litter, not least for the sake of the bitch. However, it should be done humanely, ideally by a vet.

Surely people shouldn't be breeding at all if they can't provide homes for puppies whether that be through selling them or keeping the pups themselves. 

Im not talking about oversized litters Im talking about a litter of 5 or 6 when only 2 3 4 have planned homes. Anyway whatever size the litter is Id never do it.

I had no idea that real breeders actually kill off unwanted pups :( Does this honestly happen?

I agree, people shouldnt breed if they're not prepared to be responsible for ALL the pups that they LET their bitch have!

My heart is in my throat.

I dont think I could cull puppies (or kittens for thet matter).
The only time I think I would do this is if they were poorly & would not live very long/ be in pain all their lives etc.
I would help the dam feed a large little by giving extra feeds.
If they could not be found forever homes right away I would keep them untill I could or forever if need be.

I certainly would not drown them - My sister in law drowned around 150 rats a few years ago & I cried for days (She bred them for pet shops then got fed up - NOT a good reason)

Jo
xx

Well said tenno staffs :)  This is one of the many reasons  why i could never breed.When it comes to issues such as this and with dogs in general,i'm as soft as butter.My house would soon be over run with puppies as no-one would be good enough to buy them from me.I could never kill a healthy,robust pup/animal  because they were unlucky enough to be born into a large litter,there are always options,just getting rid of them is the easy way out,JMHO .

But what are the options? If there is a litter of 10 puppies and 8 potential owners if you cant find good responsible owners for the other 2, what would you do? (By the way, I am lucky enough to have a breed where demand outstrips supply, so it hasnt happened to me).

Fillis,what would i do? I would keep the puppies who i couldnt sell who are in this world because of me and take responsibility for them! No-one forces breeders to breed,it is obviously a hard,expensive hobby and if they feel they cant handle a large litter(bottle feeding) then maybe they should rethink their hobby and maybe move on to something that does not involve living beings.

So if you had (say) 4 Great Dane puppies you couldnt find homes for, you would keep them? How would that be giving them the life they would need? Surely unless you had people employed to help you would not be able to look after them or train them in the way they should be?

There is a limit rose to how many dogs you can keep.  Keeping half a dozen puppies in a breed that needs a lot of work (which is why they are not popular and difficuylt to home), how on earth would they get the attention, let alone taining they needed.  What hope of turning them into well adjusted dogs.

Someone who used to be in our breed bred their first litter from their Champion male and a nice bitch.  They bercame too emotional to home them and kept about four pups, as they had plenty of room and their own land. 

They ended up with problems, they were too attached to each other,  functioning more like a pack than people dogs, the males started fighting, and in the end with the help of the breeder of her original dogs, after a lot of perusasion some of them were rehomed. 

They never bred again, and has gone out of dogs.

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and your responsibilities to your breed.

I do know some breeders will cull litters if they are overly big but they do with their vet & we are talking a litter of 15 + my dane friend had a bitch with 14 puppies & they all survived thanx to her wonderful bitch & her very very hard work & she had still had more orders than puppies

Many years ago it was not unusal for breeders to cull puppies that were mismarked etc

I could never kill a healthy puppy or kitten & it broke my heart when I had to have a deformed puppy(born with lots of malformations)PTS at a day old, his mum had rejected him & there was no way he would ever be able to live a proper life-won't go into details here but the malformations were bad

Rose it is not the easy option.  It is the hardes thing for a dedicated breeder to do, but they are being realistic.  there are breeds that will never be popular enough, or suitable for the average Pet owner.  Rearing a large litter to then cause a problem for rescue, or not home them responsibley so that they do end up leading miserable lives would be irresponsible.

I am sure if the breeder could ensure that only oen pup of the right sex was born when they bred then they woudl be happy.

I have never culled, and am lucky enough that despite being independant and pig headed my breed is not that hard for someone to own.  I must say though that I have been happiest with my litters of 3 or 4 than I have with my litters of 7 to 9 pups.

There is less worry about finding suitable homes, fewer that might come back.  The only down side is why when I want to have a choice of pup I end up with a litter where there were only two to choose from, and in fact out of four I would have said those two were first and last for what I wanted.

I live in terminal dread of whelping a litter of 15 as has happened in the breed in the past.  I prefer those 15 pups spread as they have been over my last four litters.  I don't know what I woudl do if there was a suddeen glut of pups in the breed at that time, adn I knew I woudlnt' be able to home that many.

Hi Brainless,

I agree it must be a very difficult thing to do - and being honest I couldn't do it unless a puppy was in some way malformed etc (in which case obviously I'd have had my vet do it) but I can understand that in some more difficult to suitably home breeds it may be the kindest thing to do in the long term :(

I read a few years ago in one of the UKs glossy dog mags about a BC breeder and exhibiter who claimed to be able to pick her best in the litter on the day of birth :rolleyes: hence she spared that one and an additional one or two and culled every other puppy born.  Must admit that turned my stomach then and still does

Regards, Teri

That is why I would never condemn anyone for doing this, as the alternative is euthanising them when older and homeless, maybe not by the breeder but the dogs home, or the not coping owner taking the poorly socialised flighty animal to theri own vet, all they need to do is lie and say it was vicious.

Because if they didn't the breed would die out.  Sadly there are too few of the right homes for this type of dog.  The person I know who has the sight hound breed will not home her pups to those who might choose to use them for coursing (and then discard them) so only breeds once in a generation to keep their line going, by which time there usually has a list for about 5 pups for other breeders or breed enthusiasts.  The litters can sometimes number 14.  It would be totally iresponsible to rear these pups to find they couldn't be homed and then have them put to sleep.  She also feels that this way her dogs will never end up in resuce where they or the other dogs in need of homes will loose their chance.

She did have one of the ones she did rear come back to her, and kept it, which made life difficult as it was male.  for this rare occurence she could maybe find the very occasional adult a home among breed lovers.

Just sit on your hands and ignore it. ;)  I think most people reading get the point without try to twist it or try to tell you what 'you' meant because they know better than you :rolleyes: 

ive herd that the runt of the litter is the best dog to have out of a litter but im not sure and the fact that people even drown puppies is horrific i love puppies to much to eva du that lol once i sene this man with 3 siberian husky puppies i was awww puppies how anyone can do something like that is beyond evil

To me, the "runt" of a litter is a sickly puppy, not a small puppy, and depending on WHY it is sickly, how can it be the best? Could be it will be sickly all its life (if it survives)

Kerrie a litter would be culled at Birth.  It is not too different to abortion. 

Puppies are born blind and deaf, so not even as advanced in some respects as a late termination, apart from the ability to breathe, and the insticnt to feed. 

No-one in this day and age makes pregnant women have an unwanted baby.  Even though there are lots of people seeking to adopt one??? 

Terminations are allowed as the mother doesn't fel able to look after or provide for that child, and does not want it out in the World in someone elses hadns where she cannot be sure of the kind of life it may have.

oh right brainless i see now i was always told the runt was the best dog to ave because we once had a doberman who was the runt and she was so soft bless her she was a bit of a disgrace really ( was scared of cats lol)
but i got to ask this would you say it was wrong to have a puppy such as a white bull terrier that was born blind or deaf and keep it if there was nothing else wrong with it or do you tink it would be best of it was put to sleep