My 17 week old male westie wont stop biting!  I am worried that this could become very problematic as he gets older.  When he does bite, i tap him on the nose and tell him no, but it doesnt make any difference.  He has got plenty of chew toys etc - how can I make him stop?

AT 17 weeks he's probably started to teeth, so his teeth will be particularly uncomfortable at the moment, as will his muzzle and anywhere around his mouth, so tapping him on the muzzle is a bit like somebody smacking you on the cheek when you have a toothache :(

What is he biting?  Or are we talking about inappropriate chewing?  If he's biting human skin when playing, then the best solution is simply to stop playing that game, ignore him and wait until he leaves you alone, then reward him with an appropriate game - you have to teach him what you *do* want him to do.

Make something else more interesting to bite :) I have a 10 week old pup at the moment and she is going to top about 7 stone when she's finished So it's imperative that she doesn't get into the habit of biting us. I always try to do what digger has suggested and walk away from her when she's in that mood, it works most of the time but sometimes she insists on following and biting any part of me to get my attention again :rolleyes: Then a stern no, and I leave the room for a short time.

Somebody else on here recommended wetting a tea towel, tying it in a knot and freezing for 12 hours, this soothes the inflammed gums  and hopefully it will make you seem less bitable :P

HTH

thanks for all your helpful comments.  he really bites just about everything in sight!  The only thing he doesn't bite/chew thankfully is the furniture.  He prob is just playing, I know, but its just that i worry that he thinks this is appropriate behaviour and then goes on to bite someone when he gets older.  I will try and do as you suggest and hopefully it will solve it.  :-)

BTW - Westie sometimes suffer with an arthritic type condition of the jaw, which to my mind is even more reason not to even 'tap' a dog on the nose.......

Angus the Westie did the biting / chewing bit during his teething which stopped when he was bout 9 - 12 month IFIRC. Charlie the rescue Westie is still teething and he is doing the biting bit. It just normal behaviour so don't try to stop him.

John

Stop him in his track NOt by tapping his nose but by firmly stopping him and firmly saying NO.. Only the one word NO..

He will learn.

My first westie I admittedly spoiled a little but no 2, 3 ,4   and all the rest know who the boss is and I never have to lift a finger. A firm no..  and an occasionally " RIGHT that is it" ROFLOL :-))

But *WHAT* will he learn Blue - maybe that owners hands near his face hurt?......  :(

""""WHAT""""" are you talking about Digger I didn't say to hit the dog or put his hand near the dogs face !!!! :-))

I said stop the dog puppy in it's track , by this I mean stop the dog, Ie hold the dog NOT BY the face but firmly by the shoulders  or lift it and firmly say NO.. he will then be focused on you... the firmly saying of no with the dogs attention is what I was meaning..

Believe me it works. :-))

I would never ever advocate tapping , hiting anything of a dog. You have to hold them , lift or get their attention, NOT OR EVER BY hurting them. That is not what my post implies. I clearly say NOT LIFTING A FINGER !!! :-)) I think you need to re-read my post !! :-)

>>> and all the rest know who the boss is and I never have to lift a finger. A firm no..  and an occasionally " RIGHT that is it" ROFLOL <<< My post clearly shows using words. 

PS I am guessing the condition you are talking about with the westies Jaw is CMO, this generally us identified with display of pain and difficulty eating as the jaw has restricted movement. It is NOT common , infact quite rare and from a recessive gene.

Sorry Blue - the mixture of upper and lower case in the 'not' threw me......

However, I still don't think it's always necessary to get so physical with a pup - restraining often brings on a bout of the wriggles, and this is because the pup is not comfortable with the situation, and using a 'firm' 'no' doesn't teach the pup anything except the owner gets cross when the pup wriggles.  Yes, eventually the pup will cease biting, but is it because of the action the owner has taken?  Or has the pup moved on to other things?...

I also didn't say Westie Jaw WAS common, but it's something a Westie owner needs to be aware of, and to recognise the symptoms.

Hi Digger :-))

Maybe my wording isn't the best but you are certainly misunderstanding what I am saying and I think taking my wording out of context. :-)  I am not implying to restrain and give them the chance to wriggle.. there is no " so physical"  or " bouts of wriggles"

I stop the puppy in it's track saying  firmly NO and then let it on it's way.. it takes all but 1 second .. it doesn't have time to wriggle.   :-) do you see what I mean? I can assure you the owner doesn't get cross it is all part of training the little sods.

You have to remember also Digger what works for you may not work for me and likewise me  to you.. BUT You can give your advice freely and I can give mine  freely :-)))    it is up to the poster to take what they think will work for them.

This works for very well with my westies and me.  Yes I think dogs can grow out of it but I think we do need to tell them it is not OK. 

Again  I think you have misunderstood my post I didn't say you had said the jaw issue was common I just merely pointed out for any readers that is wasn't common, just as you have made them aware.   :-))  ( best not to call it westie Jaw as it is not a westie isolated health issue it is seem in a quite a few breeds) :-))))
BFN

digger - I'd be intertested to know how many Westie puppies have you reared? Different breeds need different tactics.
Some male Westie puppies can be very dominant if allowed to be and some need taking down a peg or two if they have not been handled correctly from the start. These type of pups are far too confident to be traumatised by fair discipline. Adults  have very big teeth ( or should have) for the size of dog and being hard mouthed Terriers, will use them hard without  a trace of conscience, if they have not been taught very early to be gentle.

Sorry, but i do have to take issue with this comment "Some male Westie puppies can be very dominant "....

NO puppy, i dont care WHAT breed you have, is dominant. No.

ALL puppies, of any and every breed and crossbreed, will seek out their boundaries, test them, find out whats fun, whats rewarding and whats not fun and whats not rewarding.

That is what a puppy is all about.

Setting out wtih the attitude that a dog is 'trying to get one over' on you, or 'needs taking down a peg or two' is NEVER the way to achieve a trusting relationship built on mutual respect and understanding.

Im NOT going into my opinion on of the 'dominance' theory regarding dog - human dominance, but its safe to say I think its a load of rubbish.

Dogs can be pushy, they can be sharp and determined, but they are NOT out to dominate or take over the world.

Our job as 'owners' is to teach the pup what is and isnt acceptable, and thats a lot easier if you forget the dominance theory rubbish and concentrate on laying down clear and concise rules, rewarding your pup for good behaviour and preventing or ignoring bad behaviour.

Em

HI theemx,
I said "Some male Westie puppies can be very dominant IF ALLOWED TO BE " I did not say all are, BUT if you allow any Westie to be rough with you, then many, especially males, will take advantage of an inexperienced owner. And that is the key: " inexperience". An experienced breeder/owner will automatically do the right things with a puppy that will inhibit the "puppy biting" and show them how to be gentle and that biting hurts people. We are NOT a  member of their pack = we are the pack leaders and a  dog pack leader would never allow a puppy or another dog to hurt or challenge them. The dam wouldn't allow it and would pin the puppy down for a monent if a pup tries this on, the puppy very quickly learns when it has overstepped the mark - and it will still adore, trust and love  its mum, even though it has been "taken down a peg or two".

An EXPERIENCED owner/breeder would never get to the stage with a puppy that the puppy we are talking about has arrived at.

I think its very rude of you to say that what I said is "a load of rubbish". I have bred Terriers for many years, all mine have had perfect temperaments  BECAUSE they were taught at a very early age - with kindness and maybe ONE tap on the nose ( with one finger extended stiffly, not a slap or blow or anything like it) that to use their teeth on my skin was not allowed. Some male terriers ARE out to take over the world if they think they can. If you think otherwise then its clear to me that you have had little to do with terrier temperament.

Different breeds have different mindsets - a well brought up Westie is a delight to own; as kind and loyal and loving as any other breed, but those that are allowed to do as they please with their teeth when small will turn out very differently. Those that are allowed to carry on and "grow out of it" ( if indeed they ever do) will never be 100% reliable in stressful situations imho.

I am not advocating any hard or unkind treatment of any sort - just fair direction and firmness. Would you  let your child bite you, day after day and think it was ok . I dont think so. Dogs are not people, we have to be their leader and show them how to behave in an acceptable way, especially when there are vulnerable children in the family. A 17 week old undiciplined puppy can do a lot of damage to a childs face, and once it has adult teeth ( not long after 17 weeks) the results could be disasterous.
________________________________________________________________________________________
CMO affects the jaw at the hinge joint - not on top of the nose, it is hereditary and seldom seen in puppies under 20 weeks and often not until 7 or 8 months. It is rare in show bred dogs but sadly much more common in pet bred ( puppy farm?) dogs. The symptoms suddenly appear one day and the dog appears not to be able to eat its food or open its mouth wide. Milder cases can be succesfully treated without surgery but of course should never be bred from.

I think we are arguing at cross purposes here...

Firstly, i took issue at the word 'dominance' and NOT, as you will see if you read my post properly, the 'if allowed to be' part of your post.

Any dog, if given no boundaries, if allowed to behave in an inappropriate manner, may became a P.I.T.A. to live with. I never said any different.

Dominance towards humans suggests that the dog has some forward planning, some long term agenda and that is simplyl NOT TRUE, and it is THAT which i referred to as 'a load of rubbish', NOT your post!

As i said before, dogs do what is rewarding, they perform many many different behaviours all day everyday... if one of those behaviours is rewarded then it will be repeated, its up to the owner to make sure that inappropriate behaviours such as play biting, growling, barking at the postman, peeing up the sofa etc are NOT rewarded.

I disagree with tapping a dog on the nose for biting, and the feisty working bred terriers i have owned, and those i have known, would ALL at just 17 weeks of age, have taken THAT kind of 'reprimand' as a challenge, not a punishment and would have reacted further.

What the puppies mother would in fact do, is ignore the pup, then probably snap at the pup, i have never yet seen a bitch PIN DOWN a pup for simply play biting, although i dont doubt they may do it in extreme circumstances.
That, however is fairly irrelevant since even a 17 week old pup, and in fact pups much younger, do NOT view the human owner as their mother.

I agree we are NOT a member of the dogs pack..... i disagree that we are their pack leaders... that statement you made

"We are NOT a  member of their pack = we are the pack leaders and a  dog pack leader would never allow a puppy or another dog to hurt or challenge them."

does not actually make any sense whatsoever. The pack leader in a wolf pack, IS a member of the pack. That however brings me on to the second part of that statement.... actually an alpha wolf WOULD allow puppies to nip, play, growl over food, beg for food and all manner of other fairly 'rude' things, to a certain extent.

In any case, as interesting as discussing wolf pack behaviour is, its not particularly relevant to dog behaviour, since at best dogs are only comparable with wolf CUBS and not adult wolves.

Further to that, feral dog 'packs' do not interact in the same way as wolf packs, and the old studies on wolf pack behaviour have been proven to be fairly flawed.

If you are following the (IMNSHO, flawed) logic that the pup will accept and understand a human trying to mimic canine behaviour, then  you will realise that a light tap in the face is in fact NOT a deterrent, as can be seen when my dogs try to initiate rough play iwth one another, by walloping each other in the face with a paw!

It is pretty irrelevant whether or not an experienced owner/breeder would let a pup behave in this way, since the OP is not either of those things (no offence intended there) and they are requesting the opinions of others. The pup has NO idea if the owner is inexperienced, he can only learn from the lessons he is given, and if biting and nipping is being made in any way rewarding, he will carry it on. (I have a 10 year old saluki bitch here, for various reasons SHE finds play biting highly rewarding and so she does it to me, for yet more variuos reasons i choose (note here i CHOOSE, not i give up, cant be bothered or anything else) to let her continue, because it doesnt cause ME any problems as she only does this to ME and does not have access to kids, other people etc, so its not just male terriers who can be nippy little buggers when they want to be).

I dont recall stating anywhere that a pup of any breed, terrier or otherwise, should be allowed to carry on in the hope they will grow out of it.
I too do not advocate any hard or unkind treatment of any dog.... however i also do not advocate useless 'training' methods such as a tap in the face. If MY children (when i decide to have them) find it rewarding to bite me, then i certainly WONT be hitting them in the face, and id question WHY they found it more rewarding to behave in an obnoxious way than in a nice way.

I agree, dogs are not people (and people are not dogs, which confuses me further as to why you belive dogs view people AS dogs???) and yes we do need to provide boundaries and 'leadership' for them, but the way to do this is to respect and understand WHY a dog does something properly, and not just put it down to 'dominance'.

I hope that clears a few issues up.

Em

hi Do11y. 
When my staffie was a pup she was also biting when playing.  The best way to stop this is to ignore the pup when it bites and either leave the room or put the pup in the hallway for a time out for no longer than 5 minutes and invite back in, at this point put an appropriate toy in his mouth when he innitiates a game and praise for biting the right thing.  If he bites you again, put him in another time out and repeat as necessary.  Tapping on the nose or closing the mouth shut as ive seen some people do wont help anyone and could make the problem worse!  Just make sure u praise the wanted behaviour as enthusiastically as u can and ignore the unwanted. 

my staffie is now 11 months and shes great fun to wrestle with, she knows not to bite u as long as u roll up ur sleeves cos she will bite ur sleeves sometimes and accidently catch ur skin,lol. :D

I hope we all bring our pups up to be friendly and not bite etc, but the use of the word "dominant" can be very confusing. I have found people generally believe they need to be physically dominant over the dog when the word is used, so i tend to not use it, preferring to use what are IMHO more appropriate words such as manipulative, strong minded, opportunist, teenagery, etc. It's just pushing the boundaries at the end of the day :D

I attended a great talk a few weeks back by Barry Eaton which explained much of the recent work done by Coppinger, who has lived and breathed dogs for many years - sled dogs, sheep protecting dogs, etc. I used to follow pack theory (which like anything else, although popular, is just a theory) but stopped some years ago.... there's been a lot about the dominance argument lately, and i've been following it since 1987, but the talk brought it all together for me. Dogs and wolves are really so different!

Lindsay
X

I completely agree with the post on dominance being a load of rubbish.  I have never believed in that theory.  Your Dog has a very good article this month on dominance - or not!!!

Regarding the biting.  I tried all the things in books and eventually when things got really bad with my pup (when he was teething!) I popped him outside the door for 20 seconds and then let him back in with loads of praise.  It worked for me and completely cured the mouthing.  He didn't like the fact he was being excluded from me and his friends and decided it wasn't a very good idea to do that anymore. 

I think it's important not to "get" at someone because they disagree though - it was the concept of dominance that was questioned, not the post or poster :)
I used to use the dominance word so i can understand why others do, although now i disagree :)

Lindsay
x

I really wasn't getting at anyone.  It's always difficult when using the written word to get your feelings across.  It was probably phrased badly so what I meant to say is that I believe that dominance is a term used to identify a badly behaved/untrained dog.  All dogs are opportunists and if they think they can get away with something they will.  If you show them (kindly!) what's acceptable and what is not acceptable then there is usually no problem.  It has always worked for me and I have 4 dogs of varying ages and breeds.  Hope this sets the record straight!!!!

:)

Lindsay
X

When my westie was a pup he used to mouth all the time not really sore but occasionally wouldn't let go. I was told to press your finger gently to the palate in their mouth and they will let go (never actually tried it) this woman then said a firm 'no' .  I always just said no and ignored him and he was fine he would just do the other thing and lick you although some dogs are worse than others hopefully it won't last.