Does anyone have any evidence - not anecdotal stories - that homeopathic nosodes work?

Jas, this was a very interesting programme, and the results speak for themselves. The prize is still up for grabs.
:)

Thanks JG - I saw the program. I think this sceptical review of homeopathy also speaks volumes. :) - http://skepdic.com/homeo.html

Believers talk about 'memory cells'. I've never understood where these cells are made, and what their technical name is, and where they circulate. Are they in the blood? Are they made in the liver, or a gland? What do they look like?

Clicking through the links on that article (it's a very interesting one!) the homoeopathic veterinarian's article about nosodes says very clearly (in bold and underlined) that they are not vaccine replacements.

Hi JG, memory cells exist and can be seen to exist. Reducing it to basics a memory cell is a cell in the immune system that, when exposed to an invading pathogen, replicates itself and remains in the lymph nodes searching for the same antigen, resulting in a more efficient and rapid response to any subsequent attack.  The creation of memory cells is one of the main goals of real vaccination. That is a long. long way from water, plain old H2O, having a memory. :)

Where are they created? What's their technical name? (I only did biology up to O-level, so I only know about lymphocytes etc)

Not sure why you`ve added my name to the topic Jas.
I`m not into answering rhetorical questions. I`ve made it clear I believe in homeopathy, along with millions of others, nice to know I`m not alone in my belief ;) & I`ve no interest in joining a debate with people who`ve made it clear they don`t believe in it :)

Christine, Spain.

Just had to add PATDOGS are also believers in h/pathy..... :D

Why not Christine? What is wrong with debate with people who disagree with you? I'd have thought that is the purpose of debate. You asked me to start a new thread. I did so. You believe in homeopathic nosodes, and you advise others to use them. I want to know your basis for that. You neve know - you might convince me :)

Whhooooaaa there!!!!!!!
*and you advise others to use them.*
No I do not!!!! I give my opinion & experiences when its asked for, I suggest you go back & read the other posters query & my answers more clearly. Get your facts straight Jas!!!!
A debate is one thing but not when its started with a rhetorical question, nothing to do with anyone agreeing or not with me!! Also I suggested you start another topic so as to leave that one on topic for the poster who asked *nosodes feedback yes or no*

Christine, Spain.

Why do you think the question is rhetorical?  It seems very specific to me and definately seeking an answer :)
Actually I thought it fitted rather well with the other thread, more than the discussion on vaccination :)

Isabel has answered most of your points. FACTS is exactly what I'm asking for. If you go on interminably about how bad conventional vaccines are and regualrly suggest homeopathic nosodes are an effective alternative to conventional vaccines, I think that there is a real risk that others will take this as advice.

>there is a real risk that others will take this as advice.

And the homoeopathic vet on that link specifically and clearly said that they are not alternatives.

Yes Jas & what I`ve written is fact. If what I`ve written isn`t all fact why don`t you prove otherwise?

*If you go on interminably*

And just like everyone else on here is allowed to air their opinions so am I. Or is only conventional medicine allowed? As far as I know its still free speech & I will continue to air my opinions & share my experiences when & with whom I chose, if you don`t like it....tough, don`t read my posts ;) :)

Christine, Spain.

So what is the evidence for the effectiveness of homeopathic nosodes?

Oh My God....Give it a rest,talk about a broken record!!! :rolleyes:  Why dont you reel your fishing lines back in!!

It is obvious that no matter what christine says you'll are going to come up with a contradiction or another nonsensical question for something that you dont believe in anyway!!!

Christine,i've said it before and i'll say it again,you have a massive amount of patience,even when it's so glaringly obvious what the underlying motives are :)

Then why not fix the broken record by answering the question?

I don't know why you think you know what my "underlying motives" are but just in case you've got it wrong I'll tell you. I am worried that credulous and inexperienced newbies will accept alternative theories because they are posted so frequently but rarely challenged. And I think they go unchallenged so often because of precisely this sort of response.

I'm also quite prepared to change my viewpoint if I'm given a reason to do so, but sarcasm, defensiveness, aggression, obfuscation, changing the subject, questioning my sincerity and rudeness won't do it. Only facts will.

Hi Jas,

Perhaps a reminder of one of your recent sweeping statements would be timely :)

>I've also known men of the 'game dog' persuasion and they'd put most of the posters here and most dog show folk/breeders to shame for their knowledge of dogs<

Yet you say under this topic,

>I'm also quite prepared to change my viewpoint if I'm given a reason to do so, but sarcasm, defensiveness, aggression, obfuscation, changing the subject, questioning my sincerity and rudeness won't do it. Only facts will. <

So why employ sarcastic, aggressive and rude approaches to debates yourself?  Pot calling kettle black surely

I think in fairness to Christine she has made her point very well and very clearly and regardless of whether or not you or even any one else for that matter agrees with her,  she has shown tremendous patience and not resorted to the bullying and/or brow beating tactics of some :(

You yourself have made some very salient points - but is there any need to direct such a tirade against Christine for her perfectly understandable beliefs?

If this is genuinely only a debate, please keep a sense of civility and proportion.

Teri ;)

Teri, I fail to see what one statement has to do with the other. As to civility and proportion, I asked a question. It has not yet been answered but I've been accused of insincerity, told that I 'don't need any help with anything' and called a broken record. Would you not call that sarcastic, rude and verging on aggressive? But I'm still asking the question.

Jas why not take the time and go research homeopathy yourself and then post your findings here,both pro's and cons? Why do you think anyone cares if you change your viewpoint or not??

Why do you feel the need to relentlessly pursue Christine over this,infact something she believes in and YOU dont! It is not christines responsibility to educate you on the pro's, cons,facts or whatever regarding nosodes.

This is not particularly aimed at you Jas,but this tag team mentality has got to stop.It's almost looks like when one member spots a thread they disagree with or can argue about they jump on the phone to the other and off it goes again.One post's, and then the other and on it goes until the subject has been beaten to death and the poster that they are going after has been trodden into the ground,AND THEN, if all thats not bad enough they then turn around and call the poster sarcastic,defensive,aggressive etc. etc. because they talk back and have been pushed into a position of defensivness with nowhere else to go!!!!

Definately calling the pot black!! Not everyone has the patience of a saint OR the ability to put their words accross in a "sly dig" manner!

Christine i dont mean to talk for you....but as i've said before neither the nice way or the aggressive way works with some,as i've shown in some of my previous posts some folk dont deserve the niceties,politeness or respect that they DEMAND! They are out for one thing and that is to stir the pot!! Sometimes being patient and nice does No good besides making you look like the better person,which you dont have to prove to anyone.

Rose, when people ask questions, it means they want to learn and understand - it's a Good Thing! It emphatically doesn't mean that they're calling the person a liar! As a teacher (you are a teacher, aren't you? Or have I confused you with someone else?) you'll know that people are always encouraged to ask if they don't understand anything.
:)

Rose and Teri, I think you need to reread the posts and reconsider when the rudeness, lack of civility and sense of proportion started :)

Hi Isabel,

>I think you need to reread the posts and reconsider when the rudeness, lack of civility and sense of proportion started<

I think it "started" with Jas putting Christine's name as part of the heading for this thread - simple as that.  There was no need to include her name in it if it was just a general interest or feedback topic!

Teri ;)

Teri Christine asked me to begin a new thread. I didn't see why she wanted that, but I did it anyway.

Jas,

Christine suggested taking it on to another thread - as many people have with many other subjects in the past.  I don't recall any posters having then addressed a subject for "debate" to a specific member on that basis (although obviously there have been such headed requests specifically regarding a training issue for example).

As to my pointing out your previous remarks made under a futher topic, it was merely highlighting what little regard you have publicly stated for the knowledge of those who post on here - which I thought to be exceptionally rude and arrogant.

Teri

Teri, I've seen a number of threads here with FAO so-and-so. If I did something that I still do not understand wrong by doing this in a thread I was asked to start I apologise but would like to know what the problem is.

As to my regard for those who post here, it varies just as it does for all people in the pedigree dog world. In the show and working world some have a deep and genuine fund of knowledge based on many dogs and many years but still know they have a lot to learn. Others go through a stage of thinking they know it all based on a couple of dogs for a couple of years. I've been there and to my embarrassment done that, and I suspect most people go through that stage. I imagine that it is the same for posters here.

But that is by the by and isn't getting the question answered.

In case you haven't noticed Jas, you've asked several questions in the past on here and haven't often had the courtesy to reply :rolleyes:

>I apologise but would like to know what the problem is<

answered already

Regards, Teri  

If it is discourteous to fail to reply to questions why not reply to this one instead of constantly throwing up irrelevancies?

Could it be because there is no proof whatsover that homeopathic nosodes work?

I don't have an answer to your rather tersely put initial question Jas :rolleyes:  Personally I would rather investigate any matters medical with those professionals who have trained in their field but I respect EVERYONE has the right to form their own conclusions on ANY matter based on their own research and experiences.  Equally I don't feel a need to try and raise contentious issues or jump on a band wagon of persecuting posters who have tried to make perfectly valid and reasonable contributions based on nothing more than disagreeing with them.

As for constantly throwing up irrelevancies, some of the phrasing of your comments and replies are nasty - I don't personally view drawing attention to that as being irrelevant.  This forum is for the use of anyone who joins in and regardless of our personal opinions I don't think those using it should have to suffer abuse.  If I felt someone was intentionally trying to "rattle your cage" on a particular issue I'd be just as inclined to respond to them too ;)

Regards, Teri

 

No one has to reply to any post or answer any question. It would just be a lot simpler if someone did. Or if those who keep replying on the thread would simply admit that there is no evidence at all to show that homeopathic nosodes work. I think that either response would be very helpful to anyone considering using them.

As to nastiness, please read the two threads concerned carefully and fairly.

I'm not trying to rattle anyone's cage. I want  people considering using nosodes to be clear about the evidence or lack of it that they do anything at all, and I personally (and quite genuinely) want to understand how people come to belive in miasms, dynamization, vital forces, the memory of water etc if they don't have any evidence for them.

If you read the other thread on the subject it was Christine's suggestion that another was started (although I still don't understand why nosodes could not have been discussed there :)) I think Jas, as I did, took it as an indication that she would discussion it here, perhaps we got that wrong but I still don't think you could class that as rudeness or even lack of civility.

Isabel,

This is getting tiresome - I made a perfectly valid point to Jas who has quite ably replied - I don't have to agree with him nor you with me.  I have since replied to Jas again, hopefully that will satisfy you too.

Regards, Teri

Perhaps it will :) But I would like to feel free to continue to contribute to the discussion whenever I wish, I think we are all entitled to that don't you?

God Woman what are you on

No-one is trying to stop anyone contributing to a discussion go for it if you want, it's a chat forum so chat away ;)

Teri :P 

Thank you :)  I thought you were suggesting I should not have replied to the point as Jas did too.  Of course I would not have done if I had seen Jas's reply but you will see by the times on the posts I was busy typing while Jas was busy posting, a common occurence on these threads :)

Jas - you talk about the dangers of newbies accepting alternative theories. Well I would just like to say that I wish I'd come across someone like Christine several years ago, when I was a newbie. Then perhaps I wouldn't have lost a much loved dog through a booster vaccination.
I have a lot of respect for Christine's views and the ways she puts them across.
And for anyone who wants to find out more about homeopathy, nosodes or whatever, the info is out there waiting for them. They only have to google :)

Jas & Isabel, if I thought for one minute that your interest in h/pathy is genuine I would have joined in, but it isn`t. As far as I can see the only interest is to dismiss it. The topic heading *evidence* & the tone of you`re posts says it all really. Now if maybe it was worded differently, ie. *how does it work* or *why do you use it* etc would have made me think you want to know more or are really interested ;) :)
You believe what you want to believe & I believe & practice h/pathy, among other things, as you`ve both said you don`t believe it, there is nothing further to discuss. One thing I`m not & that is a fool. As has been mentioned already, if your desire to know more about it was genuine you`d have least learnt the basics & the heading of the topic would have been unecessary
J/G, although you`ve also said you don`t believe in h/pathy I know that you`ve tried it & I think you maybe want to understand it, not sure tho.
The peolpe who do have the same beliefs as I do are few & far outnumbered on this board by people who use conventional medicine, so as far as I`m concerned I will keep putting up the options for people who want to learn about them. As for your worries about newbies etc, I put my posts very clearly & allow them to make their own minds up & I`ll continue to do so :)
What happened to my pups is very much in perspective & proportion in my mind, I`ve learned from it & moved on :) but I`ll not forget it. I also know the meaning of Idiopathic & if you want to know how it was proved the vaccine caused it Jas, you can always contact Dr Jean Dodds directly, a women with a lot of time for helping animals & their owners & I`m sure she`d be more than willing to explain.

Christine, Spain.

>As far as I can see the only interest is to dismiss it

I think you may be misjudging us, Christine, my interest in homoeopathy started nearly 30 years ago when I was living in Bristol and noticed the Hospital there.  I have delved into it intermittantly ever since.  I am afraid, for me, despite an initial attraction to the art, the more I have found out the less I find myself able to buy into it but that does not mean I would not be openminded enough to consider anything new on the subject.

If you`ve been delving into it for 30 yrs Isabel then you already know the answer to the topic post ;)

Christine, Spain.

I think I may do Christine :D but it is based on what I have found so far so as I say I hope I am decent and openminded enough to consider anything you had to say particularly if it was something I had not come across before :)

Ok lets stop playing games now & be honest, you already knew the answer to topic post so what was the point of me replying??
I`ve put links up many times in the past to studies/trials that have been done but lets face it, you`ve made it very clear you`re minds are made up, you don`t believe it so again what would be the point of doing them again? Theres still a lot of people who still think boosters are needed even after reading the evidence they`re not & even when the manufacturer of one of the vaccines say theirs last for 3yrs......
I believe the majority of people are more than capable of making an informed decision when they are aware there are alternatives to conventional medicines so I`ll continue to spend my time putting info & links up so they can make their own minds up ;) just like we have :D

Christine, Spain.

I have read your links to vaccination information with interest over the years and they have always been very informative but I honestly don't remember any links to studies/trials on homoeopathy.

What I'm interested in is why people believe unreservedly in something that there is no evidence for, and why they believe in it strongly enough to tell others how good it is despite the lack of evidence.

Let me pose a hypothetical question. It seems possible that asian bird flu can not be transmitted person to person. If that is true we are in for a pandemic (we are well overdue a flu pandemic) and if it happens this one looks as if it will have have a high mortality rate. So lets pretend that a pandemic with a 50% mortality rate has arrived in Europe. There is a vaccine but it has a small risk of serious side-effects. Hand on heart are you going to have the vaccine or use nosodes?

>J/G, although you`ve also said you don`t believe in h/pathy I know that you`ve tried it & I think you maybe want to understand it, not sure tho.

Yes, I genuinely do want to understand it. I've tried it (that shows open-mindedness, surely?) and it didn't work for me, so I want to know if it's a problem with me or the system. I have the sort of mind that doesn't follow blindly, and I want to understand (I was a child that continually asked 'Why ...?' and I still have that interest and curiosity ;) ) That's how we all learn, isn't it? And as this is an 'Information Exchange' it would be nice to think people would exchange their information with others.

As I've said before, different organisms (including people as individual organisms here) all respond differently to everything. What's a good food for one will be too rich and give another the squits. One person can eat peanuts quite safely and another will have a life-threatening reaction. I don't believe peanuts should be shunned because they make some people ill.

I`m all for info exchange J/G, hope you find the notes interesting :)

Christine, Spain.

When the postie delivers them I guarantee I'll give them my full attention.
:)

I would imaging you should get them tomorrow JG. They caught last nights post and went first class. Very interesting they are too!

Regards, John

I hope so - I'm looking forward to reading them. Our postal service is rubbish here, though. First class generally takes 2 or 3 days, with second class often over a week. :(

Hope they don`t disappoint! They`re not all about memory cells, theres different info in them & its not only Dodds, theres Sarah Gould & Jeff Samson talking about things as well :)
Did you have time to read the links yet, if so what did you think?

Christine, Spain.

I don't understand the problem? What is wrong with asking for evidence on nosodes in particular and homeopathy in general? I too would be interested in both sides of the arguument. Of course we could do a search on google but I thought the point of a forum was to share views and experiences? So can I ask what is the evidence for and against? :)

Hi poppynurse,  The problem is that there is no strong evidence one way or the other, which was the point I was making recently.  Until a proper unbiased independent study is carried out, these arguments between the pros and antis will just keep raging.