Hi all, We are looking to put our pedigree 3 year old dalmatian bitch in pup for her first time. We are looking for a suitable chap with pedigree, fairly close by (we are in Bedfordshire) if anyone can help us, please contact me asap (she is due in season anytime, so we are leaving it a bit late to sort !!) Thankyou

Hi! I'm assuming that she's KC registered has a BAER normal certificate? If so the best person to contact would be her breeder for advice on which lines would suit her best - some pedigree lines, though there's nothing wrong with them individually, just don't mix well and the resulting litter can have problems. If her breeder's no help then PM me with details of her pedigree and I should be able to advise.
:)

Hi !! Thanks for you response. She indeed is KC registered, and has a BAER normal certificate - Nothing wrong with her hearing, unless it's time for wee wee's and bed !! I have been advised not to contact her breeder, not the most helpful of characters I have been told (We rescued Lola off a family 18 months ago, as they were not clued up on Dalmatians, and struggled) any advice you could give us would be fantastic at this point. Kind Regards Naomi x

Hi Naomi! If you click on my name, then on [Message] on the right-hand side, you can send me a personal message which won't get put up on the Forum - very useful when dealing with names and phone numbers etc which people might not want published. Give me the details of the dogs inher pedigree and I'll try to help.
:)

I've replied to your message, Naomi - click on [Messages] at the top of the screen.
:)

Hi Spotty 78,
i have just seen your post and i have registered to reply.  I have a dal dog due to be 2yrs next week.  When we originally got him, he came to us through a friend who took on a dal for a first time dog and soon realised her mistake.  To cut a long story short, he's ours, we didn't go deliberately looking for him although we have always found dals an attractive breed.  Our friends mistake became our joy.  Dylan brought a new lease of life to our 14yr old X breed and she gained new life despite a heart condition.  Sadly, she died this week and we miss her terribly.  So does Dylan.  Gaining him unintentionally, we knew he came from what we were told, a reputable breeder, but had had no face to face contact with her.  He is from the Washakie Kennels in Lincolnshire.  Both his sire and Dam are stated as champions on his pedigree but it meant little to us until we followed the information up this weekend.  He has not been bred before and has no reputation from being shown as he has been a family pet for us and a patch on his ear makes him unshowable.  However, on discussion with his kennels, we have been advised to offer him for stud to a bitch of suitable breeding and they are happy to advise of suitability.  He has a good disposition, is excellent with children and though i havn't seen his parents, my friend has and was most impressed with both parents and kennels when she collected him.  His Sire is Washakie Chief as great as(AC1) and his Dam Washakie Indian Sunset (V04)
I'm not sure what relevance the numbers are but perhaps someone else on the site does? HE has been DNA tested and there is a mention of KC/BVA schemes. there is nothing under the endorsements part of his reg cert.  Hope this info is useful, if interested, please mail me with your dogs details

Has his breeders actually SEEN him in order to assess his suitability for using at stud? Even the offspring of 2 champions can turn out to be a poor breed example.
Have you read the first post on the breeding board? Are you prepared for the possible change in behaviour? Are you experienced enough to supervise a mating?Not all dogs can manage on their own ...some need a human helping hand to guide the dog into the right place!Would you know what to do if something went wrong?
I am also asuming the papers for the dog have been transfered into your name?
Archer

Also if it mentions DNA and health schemes on his registration they are likely to be for his parents.  Have you had your dog Hip Scored, BAER hearing testeed, and eye tested (if it is needed in Dals?).  Also if all is well and you are up for the responsibility you really should have him used on an expereinced bitch with an expereinced and reputable owner/handler to help with the mating as you do not have the expereince.  A freind of his breeder may want to try a well bred young male, and they will be able to show you how to go about things.

Thanks for the info guys, the DNA tests are mentioned under both his parents and his own details.  In a previous conversation with his breeder i asked about hearing checks and she assured me taht all her puppies are tested but i have no documentation to prove this.  Any idea how i approach this independantly? Can i do it through my vet or do i need to contact a specific centre for BAER testing?
I have not had him hipscored myself, but am happy to do so along with eyesight. I hate to keep bothering his breeder though it has to be said that she has been very supportive this afternoon and is very keen to safeguard the reputation of her kennels.  I contacted her to see if she would be interested in having him back for stud which she had mentioned when we originally took him on, but she has three young males in the kennels at the moment and does not require another.  She last saw him around about 4months old i think as his original adoptees returned him due to a change in circumstances.  HE was adopted by my friend shortly after when about 5 months + and unfortunately she hadn't appreciated what she was getting herself into.  Rather than return him to the kennels she aproached me as she had known that i had always admired dals and been tempted.  So he came to us third hand with little training but has settled to become a great addition to the family.  No, to your question, i have not mated a dog before, but i have seen it done on a couple of occasions and though that does not guarantee success, I would be willing to deal with the situation.  His breeder did not mention knowing of any experienced bitches that she knew required studding but then she has three studding dogs of her own!
Any info anyone wants to put forward will be gratefully recieved, thanks for your comments so far.

Hi Shell - type "STUD" into the search facility here, (top right hand side) - it does show the minus side of having a "stud muffin"!!!

It sounds as if your breeder will support you, which is a very important plus - but check with your vet for hip and BAER testing - hip scoring requires a general anaesthetic & costs around the £200 mark (depending upon where in the country you live & how much money your vets can get out of their clients ;)  )

Glad you registered with Champdogs - you'll soon be hooked!

Margot

Margot,
Thanks, and yes, i do think his breeder is supportive.  She is certainly very keen to ensure the standard of the breed at no matter what cost and i am sure if she thought that we definitely should not stud Dylan, she would have told me!   but i do intend to folow up with the hip score and BAER test as i would like to have something on paper for ourselves.  WE have not definitely decided yet but as he gets older we need to decide stud or neuter as we don't want him chasing anything and everything round the park, that would be inviting problems and we'd rather not go down that road.  It's important to us to be responsible with him.

Hi Shell.  I don't understand how Dylan's breeder can assess his suitablilty for stud work when she hasn't seen him since he was 5 months old.  It's like saying that at 5 months he's worth of being a Champion!  A promising puppy can mature into a poor specimen of his breed - not saying that's what Dylan is!! :)
Similarly I wouldn't like to say that a bitch is suitable for mating to him from just looking at her pedigree.  It's the virutes and faults of the two dogs, and also their parents that needs to be taken into account, and the pedigree doesn't give any indication of that.
Without success in the ring, I can't see that many reputable bitch choosing to use him "just for his pedigree" if his breeder has 3 successful winning studs in her kennel.:(

Val,
I agree with you, but having never been down this road, i suppose we can hand on heart say we'd never had to think of the ins and outs.
We have waited until now as he is due to turn 2, and re-contacted his breeder at the weekend to see if she was interested in having him back.  I am wondering if it is a series of misunderstandings but i know that i mentioned his patch and at no time did she advise us he was totally unsuitalbe for breeding, and i now believe that from other postings on this site, she could have told us there and then when we contacted her over a year ago, that he was unsuitable.  What would be the point of telling someone their dog has a great pedigree and lead us to believe it would be important to him in the future when the kindest thing would have been to declare him as non breedable and let us get on with having him as we had intended, a valued and adored member of the family.  To be perfectly honest, i feel neuturing him earlier would have been better for him.  We would have been happy to do that then, in his and the breeds interests, as much as we are now.

I think that you've made the right decision Shell.  And nearly 2 years old is probably a reasonable age if you decide to have him castrated.
Thinking about it from a breeders point of view, when you've had a few litters over a good many years, it's sometimes difficult to place a puppy/owner when they ring up out of the blue, (maybe while you're cooking dinner for the family??) if you don't have your records in front of you!  She will remember the litter when you tell her the sire and dam, but may well not remember "the patched one"! :)  In communication there is nothing so simple that it can't be misunderstood!
So enjoy him as the fun member of your family that he is.
PS I would never ask to use at stud one of my pups placed in pet homes, however good his pedigree and quality, just in case his hormones changed his temperament and made a problem of his happy celebate life.;)

Archer,
Yes i do understand there may be a change in behaviour, and once having decided to stud, we need to commit ourselves to continuing due to his interest.  But i feel he is good specimen apart from the ear patch and as his breeder had previously expressed an interest in taking him back because of his pedigree, i rang her for additional info this afternoon.  She is still confident that she would have taken him back had she not got enough studs already, and she is very keen to maintain the standard of the breed and has asked to view the details of any bitch he might possible be presented to so she could look at compatability and advise us. I am happy have as much advise on this as possible from anyone in a position to advise and any health checks that need to be done, will be.  If it is advisable that we don't stud him and neuter instead, then so be it, he will still be our dog and as valued member of the family. 

I have just realised the spelling mistakes in this post, so sorry, its getting late and i need a coffee.  I hope to see some replies tomorrow.

Hi Shell. Sorry, but if your boy's patched then he's ruled out of the stud stakes straight away.

The numbers after his parents' names only signify which issue of the Breed Records supplement they were registered. He'll have a similar set of letters and numbers after his registered name. BAER testing can easily be arranged if you contact either Mary Greening or one of the contacts listed here. But if, as you say, he's patched then there's little point - he's no good for stud work.

I know the person who owns his parents - I'm astonished she'd even entertain the idea that he could be studded.

Hi Shell

I hate to be a damp blanket but if he is patched  no matter how small or how attractive he is not under any circumstances suitable for breeding.  A patch is a disqualification in showing terms and his pedigree should have been endorsed to ensure he is not able to enter into any breeding programme.  Also if you do not have the hearing test certificate yourself you cannot be 100% sure the dog can hear as with a uni lateral (only hearing in one ear) you would not be able to tell the difference as they compensate very well.

Like JG I know this breeder and am very surprised by what I am reading.  Have you explained to her that the dog is patched the only reason I am asking is she does breed a lot and I am wondering if she has got it mixed up with another dog. If I was you I would just enjoy him for being a lovely pet.

This is why it is important to see the dog not jsut the pedigree.  Some faults just should not be forgiven in breeding where others can.

My current youngster has done very well (both parents are Champions, though Dad wasn't at time of mating Mum) as has her litter brother, and she has an unshown brother who is really lovely, but her sister is not outstading at all.

The thing is though brainless that dalmatians are born with patches.  They are born entirely white but if a dog has a patch then it is a black or liver shiny brown patch.  It is not something which comes on in later life they are born with it and the dalmatian club code of ethics requires breeders to endorse the pedigree to prevent them being bred from which is why I for one am astounded by this.  I personally endorse all dogs and bitches pedigree and if the owners want to breed from them they have to come and see me to get it removed.

Same her.  I endorse all the pups, and have had to get a note of to KC smartich wehn I realised after sending litter registraion in that I hadnt removed it from the bitch I had just bred from :D

I did that with Thomas the first time I used him.  Because my husband was insistant we were not keeping him and I was just as insistant we were we endorsed him and I forgot all about it.  :) Made us laugh but I dont think the bitches owner was too amused. 

Well guys,
I have to confess to being truely flumexed!  Yes it is true that Dylans breeder may have got him confused with another pup in our conversation last year, but i know that i asked about the patch on his ear then when we asked for additional info when we first got him.  I didn't think to mention the patch this time round, over the weekend, but he had been returned to the kennels from his first owner, where my friend picked him up from, must have been when he was about 4-5 months old i think. Surely the patched ear would have been noticable by then? Perhaps she was prepared to think about it for her own kennels, but by the sound of it, she should have advised us that he was not breedable and we would have had him neutured much younger instead of leaving it till now.  For us, it makes no difference, he is a great addition to the family and he is adorable, but it would have been nice for us to know how the situation truely stood when he was younger.  I had just come back from the vets pricing up the cost of hip scoring too. But no problem, now we know we can arrange for him to be neutured.  I don't understand there being no endorsement on his certificate though, there is just a clear space.  His breeder did however mention something about having endorsements lifted if we found a bitch of compatible breeding that she would be happy with so this led me to believe that she was responsible and now i am wondering why there is no endorsements on his certificate.  Is it normal practice to have endorsements put on pups bred from a kennels to then control which dogs and bitches go forward into the gene pool? This would make sense to me, and i can't understand why there is nothing.  Unless its a clerical error?  Thanks for all your help by the way, its been much appreciated and its nice to have a clear idea of action we need to take.

Hi Shell

On your boys registration document it should say R or X progeny not eligible for registration I can never remember which but it is the green form from the Kennel Club.  If he is patched he was born with it doesnt appear later.  Just a thought but are you sure it isnt just solid ears there is a very bit difference.  My boy has full ears but he is not patched.  I hope you dont think I am trying to insult your intelligence because I am not but it can be very confusing. I can remember pulling the white hairs out my dallys ears because I though they looked tacky :)

It is very usual for breeders to endorse there dogs pedigree and it usually comes with a puppy contract of some kind.

It sounds like he is a lovely dog and he is with a loving family who love him for what he is.

TTS

T-T-S
No i don't think you are insulting my intelligence, i am always happy to concede to the fact that people that have more knowledge about a subject are exactly that, and a good source of info to boot!
WHat i have is A Breeder Reg Cert that is pale blue, though i have to say we have not got around to changing it into our name, it has his breeders name, and seemed to be needed to be applied for twice as it did not arrive when he was living with my friend.  It took forever to come, we had had him for about three months and my friend for two before that.  There are no endorsements on this cert.  And i have a five generation pedigree, nothing is mentioned about R or X progeny on either certificate.
Should I have another one?
The blue one has the transfer of ownership details on the back if that helps.  AS for the patch i would describe it as circular, encompassing the whole of the ear, almost up to the crown of his head, the whole ear is jet black from the front but there is obvious merging of smaller spots at the back of the head and some white patching behind the ear amidst the black.
I'm not sure what the difference between a patch and solid ears is, if you could help me out with that one, i'd appreciate it.

A patch is present at birth, and the hair is very often softer than that of the spots. If the coloured area has a clearly-defined smooth edge, and it extends onto the head as well as being on the ear - especially if you can see it continuing under the ear when you lift the ear - then it's a patch.

Have a look here at some of the patch patterns.

JG,
Thanks for the link, i woud say he is definitely patched! The front view of the patch is very smoothy rounded and does extend onto his head. Its part of his character appeal, and i can't imagine him without it to be honest.  but its not a problem, he's still lovely even if he does steal my underwear from the drawer!

Heres a thought.  Could i have the wrong certificate?
I would have thought that when he was returned to the breeder by his first adoptees, even if his original paper work was not returned with him, she would have been able to cross reference with her info and what she could of him with any notes she had on the litter aloong with addresses of adoptees?
I wonder if when she reapplied to the kennel club for a replacement cert for him that she gave the wrong pups details?
Oh I don't know, its sending me dizzy thinking about it but i do know one thing, it doesn't make him any the less mischievious, cute or adorable! He's ours come what may.  I told my friend when she decided that she had made a mistake in takeing him on, that he was meant to be mine anyway.  I meant it then and I do now.  Fate brought him to me, and he's here to stay!

Hi Shell

I have got to say I have never seen the blue form you are talking of so sorry I cant be off any help there.  I am very lucky none of mine have been returned to me. 

I would definately get him registered into your name asap.

Some patched dogs can be very attractive and when I had the two in my second litter there were 3 people who wanted my liver one :)  Sadly they are not able to be bred from or shown but they are usually very hardy.  My liver one was double the size of all the others in the litter when he left.

TTS

Hi TTS and Shell

I thought the registration certificates were green, but I've just looked at ours for our boys.  I've got two for each, the original ones sent when we transferred them to us when we bought them and new ones sent when we added our affix.  They're all blue.  Is it that the original one given out by the breeder is green and any new ones issued by the KC to the owners are blue?  Certainly green rang a bell for me too, but ours are definitely blue :)

Lesley

Got to admit I have have just checked I think I was having a blonde moment there.  Yes they are blue sorry to confuse the situation any more :)  I think I was thinking of the CC and Jw forms which are green!

Can't have been a blonde moment TTS, cos I thought they were green too and I'm a brunette, :D

Lesley

When we added our affix about two years ago, we got new reg forms sent and they're all creamy coloured, so they must have changed about that point.

That is correct the first registration with in the breeders name will be green, but once a dog is transfered it is Blue.

I assume the KC do this so that when they get people ringing up querying things about registration they will know by asking the colour whether the reg was ever transfered.

I know for fact that a lot of owners just shove the papers in a drawer and have known of dogs pass through several homes and still be registered as belonging to the breeder.  As far as KC records go I still own at least half of the 50 or so pups I have bred.  In fact when I have had dogs back they were  still not transfered out of my ownership.

Shell admits that she never transfered her dog to her name, but as it is a blue reg someone obviously deid, and that is the person whose signature is needed on the back for her to transfer him to her name.

It will say who the registered owner is on the front of the cert.

The name of Dylans last owner is in fact his breeder, but i think this will be due to him haveing been returned to his kennels by his first adoptees and the breeder changing registration back to her name.  By the time the paperwork came through, my friend, (his second adoptee) had already passed him to us, so she never bothered registering him, but i do need to do it.  And will this week, now that its been brought beck to my attention.
Thanks for all your help guys, this was probbly the best site i could have come on for info and support.  I will definitely recommend it to others if they have queries.

Thanks! Glad we could help.
:)