I have always been under the impression, and I know most of the 'old timers' here have too, that dogs that are not registered with the Kennel Club, could not be hip scored under the BVA/KC scheme.

Well I have certainly argued very strongly recently, (not here)  that that was the case. Infact I have made myself quite unpopular for my beliefs and strong ethics. So I decided to check my facts, I e-mailed the BVA and got a reply yesterday.

You CAN have an unregistered dog both hip and elbow scored. The information came from Robert Sheild and Nicola Amis, at the BVA.

I'm gobsmacked, and I now stand corrected. Don't take my word for it, you e-mail them too, and you'll see. NicolaA@bva.co.uk

Dawn R.

So how will the dog be identified?  As surely oit must inorder for the result to mean anything?

You do surprise me! We were always told it was not allowed! I know we will eye test but there is no record made of it, it's only a piece of paper with no way of cross checking of it as genuine.

Regards, John

I know, can you believe it?

Any way here is the e-mail.
Dear Ms Riddell



Thank you for your email.

Yes, dogs that are not registered with the Kennel Club can be scored under the HD and ED schemes.  The only difference is that the scores are not published by the KC in their Breed Record Supplement.



When completing a submission for a non-registered dog, please can you use the dogs pet name and where possible the microchip/tattoo number as identification on both the certificate and ensure the same is put onto the radiograph by your vet.

Please do not leave any boxes/areas blank on the certificate such as the KC Number, Sire/Dam etc.  You can enter either 'Unregistered' or 'Unknown' in these areas.



I hope this information is helpful, but please contact me again if you require any further details.



Kind regards

Nicola



So, there you go!!

Dawn R.

Well! You learn something new every day! :) Thanks.

Regards, John

Well that explains a lot - how pedigree dogs not registered in the UK are being BVA scored and we are not seeing the results in the BRS, so they are advertised as having BVA scores and our breed historians have no record of the results.

I've said before that I know someone who had an unregistered dog hip scored &  been shot down on various forums for it!!!!
Just look at it from this point of view, if you have a good un registered working dog, say a herding type and you want to breed, isn't it a sign of a responsible owner that they will have them scored before breeding for the working side not necessarily the looks

I always thought that they had to be KC registered too but a friend of mine is having xrays of a dog taken in Italy sent to the BVA for scoring - can be done no problem as long as the dog is tatooed or microchipped apparently. Learn something new....

Janet

Identification of the animal was always the issue, but of course the data can't be included with breed results as there is no confirmation that the dog is of whatever breed.

Hi guys,

I wsa under the impression that any dog can be scored under the BVA scheme as long as they were either KC registered or on the Activities/working trials register.  But I didn't realise that these scores were kept as in a normal hip-scoring.

Well you learn something new everyday!

Ali :)

In Spain & Gibraltar & Portugal the dog must be registered with a recognised kennel club ie, Gibraltar Kennel Club or Real Sociadad Canina de Espana, Clube Portugues de Canicultura etc then they can be xrayed in that country of registration & the plates sent to BVA for scoring :) Microchip or tattoo is compulsary before any can be registered. The vets here have the same forms you have & they must be filled in correctly, then they get sent of to UK. Also if the plates aren`t good enough to be read they will be sent back & the vet has to do them again. This has been for about the last 10yrs or so to my knowledge. The labs results are put into the breed record supplement & assume other breeds get put into their record supplements :)

Christine, Spain.
ps assume its the same in all members of European Communty countries as legislation is for all country members now & if bva accepts from the countries I know aboout, they`d accept from the others??:)

So is there anything to stop you puting your KC registered bitch through the scheme, saying she isnt registered to see if her hip score is OK and then putting her through the scheme as a KC regsitered bitch if the score came back ok. This would avoid any bad scored showing up in the BRS!
Diane

Not at the vet I used Diane! You have to take registered ped then regitration no. gets put on plates, chip gets scanned & must correspond. As far as I know vet only accepts registered dogs can get done, without reg no. it can`t go, well thats what I was told. But I suppose things can happen?? Of course chips have only been for 4/5yrs or so???

Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine, yes like you I believed the registration number had to go on the plates, but it's simply not true. As I said earlier, I have argued this point from that angle, but somebody showed me a BVA/KC certificate that had 'unregistered' written in the boxes for the KC reg number, and pet names only in the pedigree section, not even a microchip number or tatoo for that matter. I asked the BVA direct about the validity of this and was told there was no problem, it was acceptable.

Of course we can all see the massive loopholes, but it's Kosher according to the horses mouth. I feel so let down, and I feel it makes a mockery of all the hard work done in the past.I have recently downloaded the new list of breed mean scores from the BVA, and 10 Victorian Bulldogs are listed. Not even a KC recognised breed.

It's unbelieveable isn't it.

Dawn R.

I noticed those too, and surprise surprise they don't seem to be wonderful or better than pedigree breeds.  I just assumed they were done through registeering them on the Activities register.

Any puppy farmer could get ma dog scored and then purport that it is a certificate for that particular litter when it has no bearing to the dogs involved. 

They could say Rex and Sally are the names of all the9r breeding stock.  This is so open to abuse.

Couldn't they do that with the KC anyway?

The fact is that the KC is really no more than a commercial organisation. Surely now "cross breeders" and breeders of unrecognised breeds have no excuse not to score? So perhaps now we should just be recommending that every single person who comes on here looking for a puppy of any breed, registered or not, looks for hip scoring in the parents?

Not really as the pups rtegitration will have the parents registraion numbers on which should be on the BVA certificate.

But if they had 2 stud dogs (say 2 blue danes - same litter), one was registered and one not registered - they could just swap the registration between them, surely? There's no way of checking...?

but why would they, if they were that sort of breeder they'd just use the one dog anyway, why keep and fed two :D

Yeah, just think if someone had a breed where the dogs were all the same colour how does the vet really know that the dog that they say went is the dog that actually was done.  This is when I feel that DNA'ing should be used more. You never know what tricks people could get up to?

Ohh! Dawn when I had my dogs done the reg was on the plates, I saw them :) & like Chloe we have to take all kc reg etc, thats in Gibraltar who then send them off to UK. 4yrs ago I had my 2 young ones done here in Spain instead, vet told us we needed all Sp.kc reg, microchip as well, as it had to go on plates, but that was for the spanish testing in Madrid. So its all change at the bva then???
I always used to think anyway, that without being able to identify a dog, then it could be any dog being taken for any testing unless the vet happened to know the dog!
Christine, Spain.

Hi again Christine, :)even the BVAs own guidance notes state that registration certificates must be taken in at the time of the X-Ray so that numbers can be indelibly marked on the radiograph. However as they are willing to score unregistered dogs and even unrecognised breeds, then there is a double standard operating there. The reg number boxes can be filled in with the words 'unregistered' or 'unknown'.

Dawn R.

Thanks for filling me in Dawn :)  didn`t know this!!!
Not very ethical!!!! So just whats the point in scoring with BVA at all?????

Christine, Spain.

I would have thought that any reputable vet would not do this. If you decided to take your dog to another vet to have this done, surely they would ask for previous veterinary records as a precaution.  When I changed my vet many years ago, the new vets (who I am still with) asked me for my previous vet and they phoned to have my records transferred. The bad scores need to be shown to give a true reading. When I had Penny done her plates were bl****y awful, and vet asked me if I wanted them sent, I said yes, they were scored at 90 45:45, I think the highest scoring Lab on record.

When I had Willis scored they automatically asked me for my KC registration documents... how strange.... !

You can have the x-rays taken abroad BVA scored but you have to get the Vet where they were taken to sign a form.  Lastar's are on the way from Spain now for me to send off !