Hi,

A couple of days ago i posted on the forum asking about herbal/ homeopathic treatments for puppy vaccinations and boosters. As my chihuahua and papillon, last year had bad reactions to their boosters, but are in full health now, but i was worried it might of happened again this year if i got them done again. I have now decided against the boosters.
I'd like to thank everyone who has answered me, all the info emailed or posted up on the forum has helped alot. :) :)

I would like to know your thoughts on nosodes,whether it be good or bad??
If you have used them or not on your own animals, your stories?? YES or NO to using these instead or with vaccines etc?

Any feedback would be great...
thanks

I`m for them, although only when needed. I have them but have not had cause to use them yet. Not used vaccines for 4yrs.

Christine, Spain.

I have used homeopathic Nosodes for 11 years, pups are given them at 3 & 7 weeks, so they leave here covered. New owners have the option to use Normal Vaccs if they so wish, even though I have already done them. I have a dog sitter, so they never need to go in kennels, so dont have the worry that Kennels wouldnt take them, without normal Vaccs. I give my dogs a course of 5 in 1 nosodes every year. Its Crystals, that are given twice a day for 7 days, no side effects, no needle heomatomas, I fully support them.

Charm

I'm for them, but as Christine pointed out, only when neccessary.  As I understand it, nosodes do not neccessarily need to be given on a regular basis (but then, neither do vaccines)

May i ask at what age a young puppy may be given them, the dose and how long before that puppy would be safe to go out with other dogs and socialise?

Also im not sure if to give nosodes on a yearly basis or when needed?

I travel around the country going to dog shows and train at several clubs during the week, so all my dogs come in to contact with alot of dogs and different situations all year round.

When would it be needed to give them nosodes if you wasnt on a yearly basis??

I mistakenly thought that nosodes had to be given yearly but Christine put me straight on that one :)
So I keep a supply in the house to be used when/if necessary.
Touch wood, the two (non-boostered) dogs I have at the moment have been the healthiest of all the dogs I've owned.

I would like to know when you deem as and when neccessary??? Surely if you leave them until an outbreak occurs, it may be too late......I will stick to giving mine every year, for my own peice of mind, also, as there are no side effects to them, I may be wasting money, but rather safe than sorry.

Charm

Charm I take it your reply is for me, re as & when needed?
You can choose to give them whenever you feel. I give them as instucted by the h/pathic vet I consult. Which is why I usually advice people who want to use h/pathy to first consult a qualified registered h/pathic vet rather than come on a general dog forum & ask advice about them, or at the very least read up on it first.

Christine, Spain.

The classical homeopathic use of a nosode is during an epidemic, following a known or suspected exposure.  There is a school of thought that the repeated administration of nosodes in a healthy animal may be dangerous as you are introducing the energy of a disease, over and over, in an effort to prevent that disease - thus possibly causing the same problems as repeated vaccinations.

I would always advise people to do as much research as they can so that they can make sound, well-informed choices, whichever way they decide to go. :)

Hi Joyce, couldn`t agree more :)

Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine.
During one of my googling sessions on vaccinations and boosters I read that parvovirus is a puppy disease and that you very rarely see it in a dog older than 7 months.  Do you think this is the case ?  Have you ever known of an adult dog contracting parvo ?

Regards

Joyce

My old ESS contracted Parvo at the age of 9.  Luckily she made a full recovery and lived another good few years after that, however seeing her in that state was one of the most horrendous things I have ever witnessed.  It is commonly seen in pups and dogs aged under 1 year, but I wouldn't class it as exclusively a puppy disease, it can be (and is) seen in dogs of all ages.

Hi Joyce, yes, that is the same as I was told by Hal Thompson at Glasgow Uni :). but it was dogs under a year old but most likely puppies, extemely rare in older dogs.
Also, how many times do we see *oh my dogs got parvo* but no testing has been done? ;(
2 of my pups from the litter that had parvo showed very little symptoms but when the titres came back they were sky high,showing they`d had it! Now a pup from my unvaccinated litter went down with similar symptoms at the age of about4mths, he went straight into the vets who done fecal tests, they came back negative for parvo/corona! It was put down to something or a bug but believe me first thoughts for ALL of us was parvo! He was fine within 24hrs glad to say :)
And no, never known adult dog with it, but suppose there will always be exception to the rule.
What more can I say???
Also I was told by several vets that once a dog has had a reaction to a vaccine its more than likely to happen again, that goes for relatives as well & the lepto is the one known to cause them most.
I only know that this litter are out & about & one of them goes to work every day with his owner who has the contract for cleaning in Gib! in contact with all kinds 9mths of age now & not a health problem in sight for any of them :)

Christine, Spain.

Used nosodes for years and now use homeopathic wormer too. Never had any negative experiences and all dog healthy.

I have used nosodes for some years now after a bad experience with vacine.I always use the one with the kennel cough combination.One of my puppies went to live with someone who also kept racing Greyhounds. She had just bought in 2 GH pups who had been vacinated. All her adult kennelled GH`s came down with kennel cough as did the 2 GH pups that lived in the house with my puppy who was the only one not to get as much as  a sniffle. That is the only example I can put forward in support of Nosodes. I`m sure though the vast majority of the pet owning population who don`t read the dog press are still unaware that they don`t need to boost yearly as previously taught.

I also use the homeopathic wormer now for my dogs and touch wood, they are all worm free without any of the nasty side effects that the chemical ones can inflict :)

A lady with a Rott bitch livign nearby had nver vaccinated her bitch and used nosodes instead. 

She bred a litter from her and kept two pups a dog and bitch.  while puppy bitch was staying with a freind whilst in season the dog cam down with Paro at about 10 months of age (he had never been vaccinated buty given nosodes instead).  The male pup died, adn his mother also came down with Parvo but survived.

The surviving bitch pup stauyed with the freind for a further two miontsh and the owner did her best to sterilise her House and Garden (diggging over the garden usign Lime) using disinfectants,a nd burning bedding etc.

the bitch pup by now over a year was brought home but segregated from Mum for a further few weeks not using the same ground.

When she wqas finally reintroduced to Mu within a short time she contracted Parvo and also died.

On this basis I beleive nosodes do not work as such, what is happening is that the dogs stay healthy because there is little disease artound and by the time they are adult their immune suystems have matured enough to giht things off.

If more people stop using primary vaccinations, there willb e more outbreaks.  I don't beleive in annual boosters though.  We certainly don't ahve them for ourselves.

As Iv`e said often on here before B/Less, parvo can survive in the environment for upto a year. Not only that but due to its very nature it`s impossible to keep any dogs in the same home , seperate from it. Lime will not kill it all. A dog suffering from it will be shedding the virus everywhere & not only where the faeces/vomit lands, (sorry to be so graphic but feel its necessary) but wherever the air/wind takes it & then wherever humans in contact with it take it, by their hands feet, clothes etc & maybe some you can`t see has landed on your hair, your clothes that you haven`t washed & of you go somewhere else, your hair/clothes etc brushes somwhere else & so it is spread.
I`m also sceptical of people saying they use h/pathic nosodes. I keep repeating, they are only as effective as to their quality, dosage & timing of when given. Just a read of some of the recent threads on nosodes/homeopathy on here gives you an idea, *what dosage?? when should I give them?? etc etc*. Just like conventional vaxs quality is an absolute requirement of all h/pathic remedies!! And the h/pathicvets who issue them give very clear instructions as to when & how they should be given & kept! From reading the stuff I`ve mentioned I`m not surprised people say h/pathy doesn`t work! There is a lot more to it than *just* giving nosodes & hoping for the best. Not only that but both h/pathic vets & drs have gone on & spent around another 4/5yrs training in it before qualifying....
The only other I can say apart from sorry the dog died :( is I`ve also lost pup & had seriously ill pups due to conventional vax & I`m very interested in how we stop these diseases with conventional vaccines when
a) its a fact that conventional vaccines only work on approx 70% or is it 65%? of the population?
b) they shed in the viruses into the environment & so perpetuating them for ever?

Christine, Spain.

I suppose I should start by confessing that I do not believe in Homoeopathy, I try to be open minded about these things but this stuff is against all the laws of science that I have been taught :).  It rather seems to me that this need for strict compliance makes it unsuitable for the average punter to use anyway and the cynic in me feels that that it also ensures the need for advise from a practitioner, who of course will charge a fee ;)  The ease of failing to comply also provides a handy excuse for any failing in the treatment.  The thing in its favour is that is can do no harm except, of course, if it encourages people to reject the scientific course of action.

*The ease of failing to comply also provides a handy excuse for any failing in the treatment. *
That works with everything Isabel, just like coventional vaccines, the patient leaflet that is required by law to be given(but how many animal owners get to see it?) states
*Contra-indications, warnings etc.
1)" Only healthy dogs should be vaccinated. The vaccine may not be effective in dogs incubating the disease at the time of vaccination." Has anybodys dogs/pups been tested by their vet to ensure they are not incubating the disease???
2)"Following completion of the primary course vaccination, dogs should not be exposed to infection for at least 14days" That is an impossibilty, the most you can do is limit exposure.
3) "In the rare event of of a hypersensitivity reaction following vaccination, administer an antihistamine, corticosteroid or adrenaline, without delay & by the most immediate route." No mention of any of the other type of adverse reactions & *maybe* the hypersensitive reactions are rare(but not so sure they are that rare), other types are not.
4) "Some animals may be immunocologically incompetent & fail to respond to vccination(see further information). Animals that have recieved the corresponding anti serum or immunosuppressive drugs should not be vaccinated until an interval of at least 4 weeks has elapsed".
Pharmaceutical precautions. "Store between +2c & +8c.Do Not freeze. Protect from light. Care should be taken to avoid prolonged or repetative exposure to high ambient temperatures following withdrawal from the fridge prior to use- in hot summer conditions vaccine potency can be severly reduced within a few hours".  Here you have a chain, once the vax leaves the factory for its destination its in the hands of the agent transporting it. No way you can prove if the vaccine hasn`t been kept at stated temps, eithe in transportation or the vets.
Further Information. "Experience has shown that the maternal antibody status of pups within a litter varies greatly & reliance should not be placed on serogical examination of the bitch alone. A good immune response is reliant on the reaction of an immunogenic agent AND A FULLY COMPETENT IMMUNE SYSTEM. Immunogenicity of the vaccine antigen will be reduced by poor storage or inappropriate administration. Immuno-competence of the animal may be compramised by a variety of factors including poor health, nutritional status, genetic factors, CONCURRANT DRUG THERAPY and stress".
That to me leaves an awful lot of excuses for failure, the difference being Isabel, how many dog owners even KNOW the above causes for the failure of conventional vaccines??? The majority of people who use h/pathy know of its *supposed* failures... & successes ;) & as you say they at least do no harm which conventional ones are able to do.
As to h/pathic vets charging a fee, well don`t they all??? but the ones I`ve consulted don`t charge any more than non h/pathic vets do, pretty good considering the further years of studying they`ve done to qualify in h/pathy. But its like everything else, firms who are only a business & out for profit sell all sorts, regardless of quality & as the saying goes *you get what you pay for*  ;) :D
I wouldn`t say its unsuitable for the average animal owner (don`t like the word punter), its like anything in this life, you need to learn to understand these things, bit like animals thenselves really :) no quick solution just reading & learning & understanding :)

Christine, Spain.

My vets have always examined my puppies, as well as questioning me as to their general health, prior to vaccination, if they were already incubating a disease but were asymptomatic I don't see how they can know and would any other treatment save them anyway?  They always advise minimising risk by isolating puppy as far as is practicable, again what else can you do?  Personally I feel the risks from vaccination are outweighed by the benefits at whatever frequency you choose to booster, although I appreciate if you have suffered in this way it might seem different.

It clearly states *The vaccine may not be effective in dogs incubating the disease at the time of vaccination." As you probably know already, many dogs/pups are well one day & are real poorly the next, there is only one of knowing they are not incubating a disease & that is to test, as you know many diseases are incubated over several days, vaccinating a dog/pup while it is incubating the disease would have severe consequences, more than just having to cope with the disease it could go down with in a few days! Its not a matter of whether treatment could save them or not, its the conditions laid down by manufacturers of vaccines before their vaccine should be given.
*dogs should not be exposed to infection for at least 14days* that is the exact wording of Intervet for vax Nobivac the criteria of the manufacturers after their vaccine has been give. They DO NOT say  *They always advise minimising risk by isolating puppy as far as is practicable, again what else can you do?* You should be asking them that question Isabel maybe you`ll get an answer, more than I did when I asked them, but don`t hold your breath ;) :D
And whether or not I`ve suffered or my dogs have suffered by vax is not the point I`m making here. I`m making the point that everyone who uses conventional vax has the right to be informed of ALL the facts, just as people who use h/pathy or alternative medicines has a duty to themselves & their animals to inform themselves of ALL the facts :) Anyone who can`t for some reason learn about the alternatives will rely on a qualified h/pathic vet who DOES make them aware of how it works. Can the same be said for people who rely on conventional vets to do the same????
Hands up all those who use regular vax/boosters who knew of the product info I`ve just posted above?
I don`t think I need to say my opinion of the *risks* of vaccinations are :D

Christine, Spain.

Yes I can put my hand up to that, I would think anyone using the internet would know about everything you are saying Christine, but in a risk/benefit analysis I am not going to not vaccinate a puppy who is totally asymptomatic on the chance that it is already incubating a disease.  I think it is clear that the manufacturers are saying in an ideal world the puppy should be isolated but again in a risk/benefit analysis I feel the benefits of vaccinating outweigh the risk that it has already or will shortly be exposed to disease particularly when I will take reasonable precautions.  I would feel it unreasonable to hold a manufacturers responsible if bad luck had intervened and the puppy did contract something before the vaccination had time to work or even made matters worse.  We are getting off track, however, you have recently discussed vaccinations on another thread, this thread is entitled Nosodes, Your feedback, YES OR NO??? and it is to that question I have responded.

Will be interesting to see how many more hands besides yours go up :)
It was your comment that *this strict compliance makes h/pathy unsuitable for the average punter* that urged me to point out that users of all medicines should be aware of any risks/side effects & the efficacy of them, not just h/pathy. The words *in an ideal world* are not used at all, they are your words *dogs should not be exposed to infection for at least 14days" * is what they say, it`s in black & white & it is what they mean.
And maybe you would *feel it unreasonable to hold a manufacturers responsible if bad luck had intervened and the puppy did contract something before the vaccination had time to work or even made matters worse.* But there again unless its ever happened you`d never really know :)
And as nosodes are the h/pathic equivalent of vaccines I feel I`m still on topic :D

Christine, Spain.

I was referring to the unusual strictures imposed, such as no touching, I am aware there are no risks/side effects Christine.
I am sure your experience does colour your view but I think we will have to disagree as to if anyone is responsible if a disease is contracted.  I see it as the manufactors warning that protection cannot be guaranteed unless the puppy is fully isolated, the fact that that is almost impossible to do is not really down to them we just have to accept it.  I don't think this is relevent to the topic because even if I decided that the risks of vaccination was greater than the benefit I would never see nosodes as any sort of alternative I would just go without.

My point is the manufacturers have a duty to give all the known facts to people buying their product. I`d bet there is a fair few folk who know nothing of those warnings. And if we agree what they say is impossible to do, then why do they say it needs doing to make their product work??
And my view is no more coloured than yours because you`ve never had the experience of an adverse reaction, I can say tho that my view has now been widened :)

Christine, Spain.

I think vets always tell you it doesn't protect straight away and that the puppy continues to be at some risk if exposed. 
You don't have to actually experience an adverse reaction to know they occasionally happen but if it does happen to you it does not give you any special insight into the likelyhood of it happening.

But it doesn`t matter what the vets say Isabel, what matters is what the makers of it say & they are very very clear on what they say.
* but if it does happen to you it does not give you any special insight into the likelyhood of it happening. *
You are wrong there. I decided I had to learn more about the whole issue of vaccines & immune systems & the efficacy of them. What I learned was once a dog has had an adverse reaction the risk of it happening again is very high. Also the likelyhood of it affecting siblings, so for me it has given more of an insight than if it had never happened :)

Christine, Spain.

I just can't get what you are saying Christine :), to me the vet and the manufacturers are saying the same thing ie pup needs to be isolated otherwise there are no guarantees I think you just have to accept that isolation is not completely possible and that some times bad stuff happens I don't blame the manufactors for wanting to cover themselves against getting the blame in those circumstances.
All the information is available there to us all Christine, you seem to be assuming that because we have not come to the same decision as you we have not bothered to aquaint ourselves to all the possibles and certainly I know if I have a dog that has an adverse reaction I would not want to booster but I also know that the majority of dogs do not react in that way.

Isabel, I`ve said yes for them, you`ve said no. Either you don`t understand what I`ve said or maybe I`m not putting it clearly enough but hopefully others will understand & lets leave it at that shall we :)

Christine, Spain.

>I`ve said yes for them, you`ve said no

I'm totally confused now, Christine, said yes to what?

Think title of the topic Isabel.....

Christine, Spain.

This all makes me think of peanuts!

We are all bombarded with tales of how some people become terribly ill if they eat peanuts. But, because the huge majority of people eat peanuts with no ill-effects whatsoever, if some people become ill or, sadly, even die, is it the peanuts that are at fault, or their own immune system/reactions?

I have quite a serious (though not life-threatening) reaction to bee-stings. Does that mean everyone should be terrified of, and try to exterminate, all bees? No. It's a fault in my biology. My niece reacts badly to penicillin. Should we all avoid penicillin because of that? No. It's saved many more lives than it causes problems with.

Conventional vaccines have saved many more lives than they have threatened. It's very sad when things go wrong, but nothing's perfect.

But J/G you are not being given 5-7 vaccines in the first 3mths of your life then every yr for the rest if it, add to that being wormed every 3mths, de flead every 4 weeks, maybe shampooed every so often for ringworm/mange etc all with potent chemicals are you? Add to that little lot kibble with the *legally permitted* doses of additives & even more chemicals on a daily basis. Well I hope you`re not :D
And its not necessarily a biological defect, your immune system could have been damaged at some point resulting in your allergy :)

Christine, Spain.

>But J/G you are not being given 5-7 vaccines in the first 3mths of your life then every yr for the rest if it, add to that being wormed every 3mths, de flead every 4 weeks, maybe shampooed every so often for ringworm/mange etc all with potent chemicals are you? Add to that little lot kibble with the *legally permitted* doses of additives & even more chemicals on a daily basis.

Perhaps you should try it JG, my dog's had all of that and isn't allergic to anything :D

No, only 5 vaccines in my first 6 months, with the recommended boosters, and de-fleaed every 3 months when I do the dogs! :D :D

Christine, the homoeopathic doctor in our GP surgery says that the 'non-touching of the tablet' decree is nonsense, and on a par with saying 'abracadabra' before you take it. Is she right or wrong?

I`m not a Dr J/G, not even a qualified h/path so couldn`t possibly answer that ;) :)
I`d go for a second opinion if I was you :D :D :D :p

Christine, Spain.

Hi Isobel. 
It rather seems to me that this need for strict compliance makes it unsuitable for the average punter to use anyway and the cynic in me feels that that it also ensures the need for advise from a practitioner, who of course will charge a fee
I think that the same is true of conventional chemicals.  Over the counter medicines have been known to cause awful problems and POMs need a Doctor's authorisation.  Our Doctor's are paid a salary.  Why shouldn't a Practitioner who has studied?  PS The GP prescribed Ibruprofen for my aged Father a couple of years ago and the reaction to it nearly killed him!
The ease of failing to comply also provides a handy excuse for any failing in the treatment.
I think that is also true of conventional medicines.  Patients are forever saying "The stuff the Doctor gave me didn't work" when, in fact, they didn't take the drug correctly!

I went to a seminar in 1995 when a Vet from Intervet openly admitted that 2 out of 5 pups vaccinated are not protected by the vaccine for various reasons.

I don't believe that any drug or therapy is a "cure all".  Penicillin has been a life saving drug to some, and others have a deadly allergic reaction to it.  Some folk swear by Aloe Vera, but it isn't a miricle cure.  To me all have their appropriate place.:)

As a Kinesiologist, I also disagree with many of the things that are sold over the counter.  For instance I'd only allow balanced multi vitamins for general sale and individual vitamins only available through a practitioner.  Many people unbalance their bodies by taking JUST Vitamin E or just Vitamin C or just Vitamin B without understanding how the body works as a whole.

I should hope Prescription only Medicines do need a Doctor's authorisation, not sure of your point there :).  Most of the, hundreds of, drugs in the BNF will be tolerated by most people without any troublesome side effects I think to condemn them all is wasteful.  Drug compliance is a subject much monitored and reported on in conventional medicine and it seems on the whole to be very good but then very few conventional medicines have to be taken in very precise doses or untouched by human hands ;)
As a non-Kinesiologist :) I agree with you about the sale of vitamins and indeed herbal medicines but we digress again from the subject of this thread which is Nosodes.

*but then very few conventional medicines have to be taken in very precise doses*
I believe the resurgence of TB is from people not completeing the course of a/bs? Also many other bacteria becoming immune to a/bs for the same reason & also going on to mutate! Not least because of the over prescribing of them. Steroids are used very commonly now for a wide range of things & have very very precise & specific instructions.

Christine, Spain.

Completing a course is not the same as getting the dose precisely right.   That is not my understanding of the increase in TB, I understood it to be due to the increase of unvaccinated individuals but I may be wrong :)

Of course its the same. If you are supposed to take 2a/bs x 3 daily for 10 days & you take only 2a/bs x 2 daily for a week whats the difference?? I read TB made a comeback by people not taking the a/bs for the correct length of time & its more resistant now than then. Think I`m right, nothing to do with vax :)
Steroids have very precise & specific dosage tho, you agree?

Christine, Spain.

Christine, in the example you give there's a huge difference in both dosage and length of course. It's due to people not completing courses of a/bs that has caused the rise in a/b resistance, which is now killing people.

J/G, it was just that tho, an example! And that is what I said, people useing conventional meds haven`t been finishing the course of them. And my point was that h/pathic meds are not the only ones that have to be given precise dosage & specific time perioda to be effective :)

Christine, Spain.

Unfortunately, the h/p meds I've been prescribed have had no noticeable effect, despite my taking them absolutely as the GP prescribed. The fragaria that I tried on my dogs had no dosage on it - when I phoned the company for advice I was told it didn't matter! 'Try a tablet twice a day.' :rolleyes: They did nothing. I'm not a believer, I'm afraid. Other people swear by it though. If it works for them, fine. But it doesn't work for everyone.

Thats why its always better to go to a h/pathic vet who`ll give you the required dosage J/G :)
And it works for my dogs happy to say :)

Christine, Spain.

Would a h/p vet be better for me than a h/p doctor, though? ;) :D

LOL @ J/G :D D

Precise dose to me means 275 micrograms rather than 300 micrograms, course means TDS for 1 week etc.
Sure I read that TB was on the increase from people arrived from parts of the world where it is more common, previously there was not a lot of it in this country since vaccination to be treated incorrectly with antibiotics.
Do you mean topical steroids?  The only drug I can think of that is very specific, requiring sometimes daily blood tests is Warfarin......there I've given you one!! :)
but what has this got to do with Nosodes?????