Hello all,

I just go the nod from my vet that my young working lab (Kester) has got epilepsy. He had a fit yesterday and had to have a set of bloods done, but it seems pretty certain.  As he did his first working trial last weekend, I just wondered if anyone has working dogs that have epilepsy and if it had an effect on their working ability.  I've noticed that Kester has lost a bit of muscle tone over the last few weeks and wondered if keeping up muscle tone could be a problem associated with epilepsy.
The vet says that as he is extremely fit and active, hopefully it may be a one off, or less frequent episode, and he has not been put on any meds as the vet has said that its better to 'wait and see' if he has any more before dosing him. I trust my vets -  there are some really genuine lab lovers among them!
John,I know that one of yours had epilepsy, did it effect her working ability/concentration etc?

Any help greatly appreciated.

Ali :)

Sorry about your dog. Can you explain what your dog did during this fit?  Reasons to follow.
Dawn.

Yes, I can see what your driving at Dawn. It's always a possibility.

Regards, John

I'm so sorry to hear this Ali. When Bethany became epileptic I stopped pushing her training. Although she was my demonstration dog she never worked competitively. For all that, I believe she would have done during her younger days but as she got older she did have a little more problems, mainly in respect of her confidence.

For what it's worth, I think your vet is right in his "Wait and see" policy. My vet prescribed Phenobarbitone but I unilaterally took her off of it. My thoughts were that as she was going to have to be on drugs for the rest of her life I wanted to see just how bad the situation was. In the end she never did have medication. On that score every dog must be judged on its merits.

I can think of no reason why muscle tone should be affected and certainly it never was in Bethany's case, she was born a hyperactive hooligan and died a hyperactive hooligan and I wouldn't have had her any other way.

Best wishes, John

Hiya all,

Thanks for the replys.

Dawn,

Although there were a few odd behaviours in the 24/48 hours before the fit it was pretty sudden when it came on.  Kester had been sitting 'watching' the wall, blinked and looked at me and then lay on his side. He started 'nodding' his head for about 15 seconds and then moved on to the classic 'swimming without water' paddling which lasted about 3 minutes. He definitely was not coherent in this stage. He then just sort of blinked, and slowly came round, albeit rather slowly. I had turned off the lights when it all kicked off, so he didn't get any stimuli from it and as soon as it was obvious that he was coming round, I continued to talk quietly to him. I knew it was all ending when his tail started wagging.
I did wonder at first whether it was CECS, but the vet said that as he was not responsive during the seizure, it was most likely to be epilepsy.
John,
I'm glad that your Bethany was a 'loon' until the end.My vet has said that apart from avoiding extremes (eg, heat,cold,fatigue,thirst etc), I should treat Kester exactly the same as before. There is no reason to stop him competing as long as I'm carefull and observant. She said that putting such an active dog on Pheno......s, would probably stress him out even more as they can have such a severe numbing reaction for the first few weeks.   Anyway, I'll keep him working towards his next trial and see what happens.
Thinking back on it, the loss of muscle tone could be just because he has been working so hard for the last few weeks and with the colder weather, I obviously didn't 'up' his food enough! I'm a bad person :)

Kind regards,
Ali :)

Obviously fatigue and cold is the problem in gundog work. All day in the field working in January. periods doing nothing and sitting in icy standing water, other times of extreme work.

The saving grace in your case is that dogs do not usually fit at times of stress or excitement so it would be unlikely that he would fit at a competition. What I did find was that although stress never brought on an attack, usually she would fit shortly after. Usually within two to three days. Something to watch for. All dogs are different so you may not find this.

Best wishes, John

Thanks Ali, just wondered about CECS, you never know, hopefully your dog will be fine from now, and may never have another fit.  Good luck.
Dawn.

Hi John,I'm new to this site just read the replies to the use of pheno for epilepsy ,I have a rough collie who had a number of  fits all at once when he was 7 yrs we  had a brilliant vet who put him on pheno immediately and sent us to see a vet whos speciality was epeileptic fits he booked him in for a CT scan which consequently saved his life as he had had a brain haemorrage on one side of his brain and  retaining fluid which was pushing his brain over to one side they prescribed pheno and steroids and almost immediately brought his symtoms under control he has been on pheno for the last 8years of his life  as he is now 15years old and as lively as a pup or so the postman thinks!I think if we had not put him on the medication we would not have him here with us today.

Hi Starryeyes.
Epilepsy is rarely a simple subject and should never be self diagnosed. But there are certain guide lines to help vets know what's going on. (Allowing of course that there are always exceptions that prove the rule!)

The epilepsy which people usually think of is Primary, or idiopathic epilepsy. This normally starts at something between a year and three years. If you can imagine it, we are all epileptic but our threshold is above the level where we would normally start to fit, in a case of a person or dog suffering from Primary Epilepsy, their threshold is that bit lower. This is the kind of epilepsy which my Bethany suffered from and very obviously the kind Ali's vet suspects. The problem with this form of epilepsy is that there is nothing to see when the dog is not actually fitting. At the time it is possible to pick it up on an EEG but vets never see dogs fitting!

Just to complicate it there is a relatively new condition, Canine epileptoid cramping syndrome, CECS for short, which appears almost identical, but which is nothing to do with epilepsy. Again, if the dog were to be wired up to an EEC at the time of the fit it would be seen that a totally different part of the brain is affected. We can thank, particularly the Americans, and the Border terrier people for the knowledge of this condition.

Other forms of Epilepsy fit into different patterns. Hydrocephalus is one. This can occur at about any age and is more often seen in dogs with a high domed head such as Chihuahua and CKCS, although I once saw it in a Cocker who had run into a wall. From what you are saying this is the kind your Rough Collie has.

From middle age onwards, Tumours or heart problems would be suspected, and of course, it is the cause which would need treating rather than the effect.

Poisons, particularly Strychnine can cause fitting at any age but the condition of the dog should tip a vet off to the fact that there is a problem other than "Just" epilepsy.

Something we see with working gundogs working hard in the beating line is a kind of fit which is at least in part believed to be caused by Hyperventilating. This has happened a couple of times to one of my 'Keeper's Springer's. He now puts her back in the Landrover for the occasional drive to let her recover and this season she's been fine.

As to whether to medicate or not, that decision would have to depend on the type of epilepsy, the dog and just how bad the turns are. Every case would need looking at. Some medications are not as effective in some cases as others. In the old days Phenobarb could be given at something like 2 mg per day. When it was banned by the EEC the alternative was one of the Phenytoin group of drugs needing ten times that dose! Thank goodness common sense prevailed and Phenobarb is back on the menu and also a (relatively) new range of drugs.

Regards, John

Hi John thank you for your reply.
When Kyle my rough collie was diagnosed after the ct scan we were told that his results were very unusual and according to our vet they still use them in the university for student vets. We thought he may have had a tumour at the time but were told that he would have had mobility problems if that had been the
case but prior to him fitting he had no ailments.

I do enjoy reading you reply's.

Starryeyes

Hi Ali,

Although I have neither a Lab nor a working dog of any kind (BSDs which I show in breed) I have owned one which was epileptic and had her first seizure at 5 years.  Like your vet, mine advised waiting to see how things progressed before using any meds.  She lived until over 14 years of age, having mild fits approximately monthly for the first couple of years, reducing to around 1 every three months or so.  Most lasted around 1-2 minutes , during which time she "paddled" and drew back her lips, her eyes were obviously not focussing but she had no loss of continence etc.  With age she became fairly deaf and in her last two years or so had no fits whatsoever :)  We put this down to the fact that she was stressed by noise (gunshot, fireworks, thunder) and as her hearing became more impaired these and lesser noises were not so distressing for her.  At no time did she ever require medication.

I know this maybe is not as relevant to your post as the others, but just thought I'd share with you that epilepsy is not always as distressing or difficult for our dogs to live with as can sometimes be the case.  She remained a happy and active girl right up to the last day of her precious life. 

Good luck with your boy,
Teri :)

Hello all,

Many thanks for all the extra information and kind words that you have sent. I guess its down to playing wait and see and hope. At the end of the day I'll do what's best for him, so if it ends up that he can't be a trials dog, then so be it. I'd rather he was as happy as possible, than under any extra stresses that may bring a fit on.   

Thanks again for your good wishes

I'll let you know how he gets on

Ali :)

sorry to hear that Ali.
ive known friends with epileptic collies that with medication they continued to work successfully for a good few years. but i always felt they never where the dogs they should have been,but where happy enough & their owners were grateful for what they could give & just enjoyed their dogs 100%.

Hello all,

I've just had another thought.  If Kester got lost or god forbid injured and taken to a vet that didn't know him, would his epilespsy be brought on by drugs that he could be given.  Before anyone asks, he is chipped and has tags on, but should I add a bit to his tag stating that he is epileptic?

What do you think?

Ali :)

Hi Ali,

Not sure just how many drugs affect epilepsy but I know the sedative ACP does (can also bring on seizures in dogs that haven't actually fitted previously but have a low threshold :( )   I think I'd include his condition on your boy's tag just as extra peace of mind (please God you'll never need it anyway)

Recently both Evening Primrose Oil and Cod Liver Oil have been linked to epilepsy with low threshhold dogs too - don't want to be a scaremonger, just thought I'd mention it in case either are in your cupboard.

Good luck,
Teri :)

It's something I never gave a thought to. Bethany was never more than about six foot away from me apart from when I sent her for something anyway. If a vet did bring on an attack then they would almost certainly give an injection of Valium which should him out of it just like that.

I agree with Teri about being very careful about what you give him. I've never been in the habit of supplementing feeds so such things as cod liver oil was not a problem. I did used to give my weekly Pilchards in Tomato Sauce without causing problems though. ;) At the time when I had a diabetic bitch I was very careful and fed literally NOTHING other than the usual.

Best wishes, John

Hi Ali,
Teri is right, ACP is definitely to be avoided, as my vet confirms it's been implicated as a trigger for fitting in many dogs. The difficult thing is that the fitting doesn't necessarily happen at the time, but can be quite some time (even a month or so) after the sedative was given. Make sure that if he ever needs a sedative (prior to an anaesthetic for anything for example) that he is NOT given ACP.

John,

Pilchards in Tomato sauce- you old softie!!

Ali :)

Well, It's cheaper than Blue Stilton cheese which Anna is rather partial to! :d She also has a liking for Sweet and Sour Chicken!

John ;)