Hello, have posted on here once before.......

I have a 20 week old male sbt and am interested to know your opinions on castration. I hve no wish to breed or show him, just want a loveable pet. Is it fair to castrate Pepper? Will the anaesthetic be ok? Is it fair to put him through this? I just want whats best for him in the long run.

Your views will be much appreciated, thanks!

You will get all sorts of views on this subject and probably be none the wiser at the end of it :D

Personally I would castrate if you don't intend to show or breed.  I have found it makes the dog easier to live with and to walk off lead in public places.  If you live in the middle of the countryside then that is possibly not such an issue.

I personally would leave it until the dog is around 12 months of age though, it gives them time to mature and you will have more of an idea of his male behaviour.

Sandra

hi chilipeper. i would say yes go for it. it is suppose to make them a better dog to live with . we will be getting our bitch done. the males start getting the horn around 10 months so i have read. this is when they start to wander off. ask your vet what is the best age to have him done. all the best steve

Hi there,

Going to give a different perspective here :P  I have never seen a reason to put a dog at risk from an anaesthetic if there is no medical reason for it.  Equally a well trained and well socialised male will not become suddenly agressive or start wandering off ;)  Vets like to perpetuate the myth that neutering males prevents all manner of behaviour problems but the fact is good training, patience and a loving bond between owner and dog are the methods of preventing most behavioural problems.  Some dogs can become anxious about other males appoaching them as it is not unusual for entire males to treat them as bitches and even the most friendly male will get tetchy about that scenario ;)

In any event, if you do decide that the op is the way to go, please allow him to fully mature mentally and physically before doing so - hormones play a major part in the physical and psychological development of our dogs just as they do in humans.

Regards, Teri :)

I have heard it said that dogs castrated too young can remain "stuck" in puppyish behaviour for longer - anyone any experience of this? However, Luke's brother Johno who is a hearing dog for the deaf has of course been "done" - and I believe it's normal practice for guide dogs, too - so presumably it's considered to prevent unwanted behaviour in these working dogs?

Hi Carene,

I have certainly known several bitches like that - permanent puppies!  Additionally they never bodied up or developed the same bone substance as their siblings (if spayed before a season :(  )

All assistance dogs are done routinely as far as I know.  I suppose it is to prevent unwanted litters from their stock which is naturally guarded carefully - and as much to protect their new owners too.

I can't say that IMO that is reason to neuter every dog that is not intended to be bred from although have to admit that I think it is a preferred option for most pet only bitches (once they have had at least one season) as it is probably more difficult in a busy family environment to ensure that everyone keeps the in season bitch away from other males and unable to escape gardens etc :P

I've never had any of my males wander after anything - that includes one used at stud who knows very much about what it's all about :D

Regards, Teri    

well i just spent half an hour running across fields to get my un neutered dog back after on the wind he got his first ever whiff of an in heat bitch. he is 10 months old and well trained and will 8 times out of ten now stop if i call him back when he sees another dog (he has 100% recall if no dogs) he knows the drop command which i use if he sees another dog i am not sure of. i took him out today and he suddenley took off full pelt i couldnt even see another dog as it was a good half mile away. i panicked like hell obviousley and i just couldnt think what he was doing as he had never ever done anything like this beofre. i eventually had him in sight again and he was being poked with a walking stick by a middle aged man who was walking his in season 2 yr old bitch! max was trying to mount it like a dog possesed again bvehaviour i have never seen before. when i got hold of him he was very reluctant to leave and i literally had to drag him back and he was panting like mad and humping as he walked! his natural instincts just totally took over and all his training went out of the window. i am not going to risk this again my mind is made up and he is going into the vets on monday. todays incident was not lack of training i dont think i believe it was his natural instinct controlling him and i dont want that again! if she had been over the road he would of been in big trouble. obviousley this is not a decision i have taken lightly i have been thinking about it for months and i am dreading monday as there is risks involved but i cant risk losing him over a road or such like. some people say they calm down but it is not worth the risk of waiting in my opinion so i am sure this is the right decision for me and my dog

Hi katyb,

I can understand your concern and alarm - anyone would ;)  However I know several castrated dogs who would "mate" bitches - OK, they are firing blanks as it were but they don't seem to care :P   Other bitches will often even chase after an in season bitch to investigate her ........

I hope the procedure lives up to your expectations and that *total recall* is restored

ps would add that at 10 months he will be going through his "Kevin stage" anyway and his control issues may well have been affected by that too

Regards, Teri :)

My dog had his stitches removed from a castration this past Saturday and apart from being annoyed at the cone at nights, as he couldnt adjust properly, he had no problems whatsoever. I too wasnt sure whether to castrate or not I have a bitch too and was always intended to get her spayed so wasn't sure why I would both with the male too. I then read of medical benefits, it is common for dogs to develope cancer and frequent areas happen to be the testicles and for a bitch the ovaries etc and it can add years to their lives, which is defo a positive!! Also I started to notice that Taz was being effected in his play at 8-9 months instead of playing hard he was spending half of his time trying to mount other dogs and my bitch came on her first season he was starting to realise and hassling Maddy. So for both teir benefits Tas health and behaviour towards other dogs and the sanity of Maddy I decided to get it done. I would definitely recommend it!

>it is common for dogs to develope cancer and frequent areas happen to be the testicles and for a bitch the ovaries etc

It seems to be about as common in dogs as it is in humans. That said, I've only ever known one entire dog get testicular cancer, and no people, so perhaps it is more common ...

I've not had my dogs castrated, they don't hump and they don't fight and they don't wander (not even the one who's been used at stud) so I can't see any reason to.
:)

JG,

Can't see any reason to, eh - haven't your *read* somewhere :rolleyes: about the problems?

Teri :P

My boys are entire too and we can't see any reason for them to be otherwise, unless in the case of medical emergency in the future.  It is of course for everyone to weigh it up and come to their own decision, but we find we can live quite happily with the boys humping, fighting, scenting the furniture etc ;)

Lesley

Edited to say: I'm sorry everyone, there was no need for me to be facetious in this post :o  Our boys of course don't carry on in this manner :D  I like to think that being entire is of more benefit to them in the long run in terms of their health etc, but of course I could be wrong!

Lol @ Teri! :D

A friend of mine has a male cocker, she had him neutered because he started humping everything in sight...........10 months on, he's still exactly the same!!

my neutered male is far worse than my un neutered and actually tied with one of my in season bitches while my un-neutered one just sits calmly in another room with his kong, my neutered one does anything to try and get to them and he has a play with his blanket and pillows its so sweet he gets told theres no use and to go play with a ball.

Sparky was a manic humper - and as he was our first dog I listened mainly to advice of vet/trainers and made the decision to get him "done". I'm not sure I was that fully informed the first time round, but we novices are very much at the hands of the experts. Not rushing into it quite as quickly with Busby  - mainly because they seem to have their pecking order sorted out and I don't want to upset the balance of things. His recall is better than Sparky's ever was at this age, but adolescence is only just kicking in so watch this space...
As for the humping - Sparky will still give that a go, though not as often, it's usually only Busby that he bothers with now, but as he's starting to grow up I reckon he might well have grown out of the humping anyway. It seems to be their morning play routine - lasts a couple of seconds, then is over and done with - nothing to get too bothered about - and they do at least stop if I tell them to pack it in.
At the end of the day you just have to weigh it all up and do what fits your dog - and you!
:)

Also if this was in an off lead area like the park I would have ahd a few choice word for the iresponsible bitch owner.  I own only bitches and wehn mine ar in season they are only walked where no off lead dog has business being (means pounding the pavements road walking all of them).

LOL Been there done that, got him castrated! Unfortunately some dogs are just sex pests. Having found a bitch in season at 6 months mine was OBSESSED. He humped me if I bent over, had to pee on every single lamp post, tree, road sign etc. Pulled me over to check out any bitch around, picked a fight with any dog around. In short he was a liability, especially as we are about 1 1/2 miles from a service station on the motorway and they can smell a bitch in season up to 2 miles away. So for his safety and my sanity it had to be done. It is apparenlty very straight forwards and a skilled vet will only have them anethnetised for about 10 or 15 minutes. 

If your pups was really extreme I can understand you doing it, though would like to point out that like teenage boys adolescent males get a surge of hormones that has their testosterone levels five times as high as an adult, so chances are he would have clamed down to more normal levels withinn a few months anyway.

A male I bred was done at 5 months, way to young in my opinion.  He wanted to mate with his mother when he came to visit and she was in season a year later.  His owners were gobsmacked, and he has continued to hump evey mlae dog he can get near.  He looks like a Eunuch too, as he is full male size, but has never developed in head and shoulders the way a mlae does so doesn't look like dog or bitch.  He also gets fat easily and has never been correct weight since being done (though can only blame his owners her).

Most behavioural issues can be dealt wityh by training, but castration will ehlp if the problem is solely hormone driven, which is rarely the entire case.

Mine was done at 12 months, he looks very male and yes he may have calmed down. But at 8 1/2 he still knows exactly what to do when he meets a bitch in season ;)

I tend to advise my owners to wait until 12 months wih my medium size breed so that they at least can develp the look of amale which is usually why the owners chose a male in the first palce, their more imposing proud physique.

thanks for all your replies, yes I think you're right Sandrah, I am still none the wiser!!!  It seems it really is down to the individual dog and his character.  The vets advised that 6 months is the best age (the earliest) plus they go by their weight and the heavier they get the more it costs. I guess I should wait until he has reached full maturity as I couldn't stand his puppyish behaviour for the rest of his life, chewing, biting etc!!!!

Thanks for your replies again!

Ali xx

thats the thing all dogs are different some neutered males are still rampant and some settle down and some dogs that are left entire are calm and some are like little furry nymphos. well i have a rampant one so i feel it is best to have him neutered in the hope he wont disappear over a fence or a main road after a bitch in heat. he is fine with females that have been done and he doesnt try and hump them today was the first time i have seen any reaction. he is definitley more disobedient and is being a bit
of a kevin and this is a phase but he was a dog possessed with that in heat bitch

<The vets advised that 6 months is the best age (the earliest)>

They always do!

Every litter we have to explain to our puppy buyers that vets DO NOT always know best.

We now give them a booklet explaining all the 'horrors' that the vet will tell them about when visiting for their first vaccinations, ie the risk of the puppy dying if they do not remove their 'bits' as soon as possible, the hideous death that they will suffer from the raw diet that we advise, the diseases that they will die from due to non-annual vaccinations etc.
They are then forearmed and can respond with appropriate answers like " mind your own business"!

Snomaes

Good points snomaes ;)

Unfortunately too many vets set themselves up as experts in fields in which they have very little personal experience - unless of course you are fortunate enough to have or find a breeder/vet.

Put some of the average ones on the spot about why certain procedures are necessary or why a particular diet is THE best bar none and they rarely have much to say - strange that, don't you think :rolleyes:

But they obviously are getting "their" message across as all of a sudden the unsuspecting public has acquired the skills of being able to preach on their behalf - pity they didn't seek the advice of their breeders first.  At least they'd stand a better chance of making an informed choice :(

Teri :)

>in which they have very little personal experience

Do they never see these dogs again then?  Most people stick with a vet for years so they will have the opportunity to see again and again how the treatment, food etc that they have recommended is working out, far more personal experience than the hobby breeder who may own, say, 20 dogs in their entire career, in all the vets I have had have also been dog owners too!  I have never had a vet that said "a particular diet is THE best bar none" in my experience they just make recommendations and in my book that is exactly what you want from the professional in the field.  I am sure in the large body of veterinarians, as in all groups of human being, there will be a few with alterior motives but just as we accept that most or us dogs owners have our animals well being as priority I think it only fair to accord vets the same curtesy.

Hi Isabel,

I'd be willing to bet you've jumped in here because of the four letter "F" word :D -  (food!)  That comment was just an aside - pleeeeease don't think I'd like this thread turned round to that one

If pups are routinely neutered on vet advice nobody knows how their characters would have developed - neither the owners or the vets - that's the point I was referring to.  So do all vets have "personal experience" on the issue?  By and large I would say not, other than that of carrying out the neutering operations.

I am fortunate enough to have wonderful vets who respect the fact that I have a need and right to discuss and form my own opinions - they don't lecture me, nor me them ;) , and so we have an excellent relationship.  That said their offices are filled with posters on neutering (and they carry "all the usual suspects" in the food department too :D )

Regards, Teri :)

No it wasn't the food thing ;), although you did mention it :) it was the assertion that they did not have personal experience.  No, they would not know how a individual would have turned out but they will see many entire animals so they will be able to compare them in general terms.  I am ambivalent about neutering, by the way, what I expect and indeed have always got from my vet is information about the pros and cons which I can then use to apply a risk/benefit analysis to my own situation.  If your vet is like that too, do you not think we can start assuming that the majority of vets are not quite as you portrayed in your earlier post? :)

I don't think most vets offer the pros and cons of neutering Isabel :(  I've seen several over the years and have yet to meet one who mentions possible incontinence in speyed bitches or feminisation of castrated males - to name but two important cons in the neutering debate - including the vet I'm curently with incidentally (although I'm pointing them in the right direction :P )

regards, Teri

My friend who has boxers was warned about this by her vet but was also advised that if it happened it could be controlled by medication, which is exactly how it worked out :)  Your vet may have omitted to mention it to you but I would not have thought you needed to "point them in the right direction" because , as we know these things happen, they would have had experience of treating the result :)

Hi again Isabel,

>they would have had experience of treating the result<

Yep, don't doubt it :D  Thing is I'm "pointing mine in the right direction" of prevention being better than cure (if less lucrative )

Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Teri :P

Preventing what though? To prevent one thing you can cause another. I believe in the veterinary profession they have the foundation of a high level of education in anatomy and physiology of the dog, better access to peer reveiwed data and more experience than the lay person on the actuality of the pros and cons, all too often we see on here people getting fixated on one aspect of "danger" and throwing all benefits out with the bath water don't we? ;).  As I say the balance will vary for individuals but I think the vet is a good source of advise so I think we will have to agree to disagree :)

Fair enough,

Just gotta go review a couple of books for my vet, (Billinghurst's and Fennel's)  bless him, always willing to learn :D

Teri, (shriek!!!!!)  :P

Now there's a vet that knows how to make money :p :D

Tears streaming down my cheeks!

Teri :D :D :D

Hi Teri,
Its me 3 boob Anna :-)
Just seen your point about feminisation syndrome and I totally agree with you.  Our bichon was castrated last October because a fellow dog walker told me that her friend had bichons and said they can get a lot of hormone problems and spaying or castration may help.  I was desperate to try to help his skin problem and so had him castrated.  He now has this feminisation syndrome and the vet said they have never heard of it.  When I take him for a walk and we meet a male uncastrated dog they go crazy over him and keep licking him underneath and jumping on him (which worries me because he is only a smallish dog and a big labrador could do him a lot of damage)  We had met the same dogs before his castration and they hardly used to give him a second glance.   There is one large male labrador and it seems to find us even when we are out of sight of it and jumps all over him and throws him on the ground on his back and he is a very friendly dog but gets quite nervous and frightened when this happens.  I have to hold him in one arm and fight the dog off with the other (which is very difficult because he is a very strong dog) until the dogs owner catches up with him which can take several minutes.
I wish really that I hadn't had him castrated now because I don't think it has really helped his skin problem and it is a real pain having a dog which smells like a bitch in season to other dogs.

Hi Anna,

How's it hanging :D

Sorry to hear about your boy - I have friends who had this problem some years ago with a Sheltie :( they were in despair.  I can understand that sometimes there are benefits in castrating males but their owners need to be given all the facts so they can make an informed decision.  I can imagine it is a frightening experience for your dog and you too if larger males are persistent.

Teri ;) 

Hi Teri,
Yes they are all hanging okay thanks :-)  :-)

It is very scary when they do this and I actually dread walking him sometimes because of it.  The vet never warned us of this or any other cons of castration.  When I contacted them to see if there is anything that I could give him to stop this happening they just said to take a sample of his urine in as if they thought it could be a urine infection or something which I know it definitely isn't.  Do you know of any tablets that I could give him to stop this happening and if you can use them long-term?  There used to be some tablets for bitches called amplex tablets or something similar and I am wondering whether they still do these as I haven't seen them or if they would help in this case.

Hi again :)

It may be worth investigating a homeopathic route to see if there is something to help - possibly try somewhere like Canine Natural Cures.  I'm not sure if there is conventional medicine for this problem in males but personally I'd be reluctant to medicate a dog long term on regular drugs anyway.

Hopefully someone else who has maybe lived with the problem previously will come on board with some practical advice.  I don't envy you :(

Teri 

Anna, someone who used to post on here had similar problems, and her dog was put on testosterone therapy which seemed to help him. It was expensive and lifelong, but apparently it did improve the situation. I'd ask your vet to look into it for you - it certainly exists.

Hi JG,
thanks for your reply.  If the testosterone therapy is expensive, we probably won't be able to afford it anyway especially if it is for life because he is only nearly one now and we are at the vets with him practically every couple of months already for steroids for his ear problems.  I will just have to do my best to avoid uncastrated dogs. :-(

How do you definately know it is not a UTI sometimes they are unsymtomatic and it only takes a lab stick test, not very expensive, at least it's excluded then.

Hi Isabel,
What is a UTI then?  Is it some sort of urnine infection?  If it is then I wouldn't think he has got one because he doesn't seem in any discomfort at all and is quite happy and surely dogs wouldn't be all over him if it was one of these.  Another thing how do you collect urine from a dog?

Yes, UTI stands for urinary tract infection; and I was surprised to discover that it's not that difficult to collect a urine sample from a dog! (Bitches are another matter!) The vet supplied us with a plastic bowl-thing that linked directly to a sample bottle - wait till he wees, and you pounce!

Dogs often show a great interest in the smell (undetectable to us) of infections.  UTIs are often ansymptomic i.e. no temp, no pain but they can still be there.  It is certainly worth excluding as common things are........well, common :) before looking for the more unusual.

Typo - asymptomatic or unsymptomatic but not a combination of the two :)

Thanks for the advice Isabel and JG, I will try and get a sample and get him checked out then.  He is on steroids at the moment though so is it best to wait until he has finished these a week on Monday?

Steroids should not make any difference to the test only any antibiotics he may currently be on but perhaps you should check with the vet.

"Every litter we have to explain to our puppy buyers that vets DO NOT always know best."

I've been driven to despair by the vet of one pup from my last litter. The owner got the pup fully vaccinated at 12 weeks as usual but on my advice took him to her own vet as a matter of course.

Next thing semi-hysterical owner is on the 'phone to me - the vet has told her that the puppy is grossly underweight and has 'big knobbly joints'. I tell the owner that (1) there would be something gravely wrong with a 12 week giant breed sighthound puppy if it wasn't skinny and especially if it didn't have big knobbly joints; and (2) that my own vet who is very experienced with the breed had given the whole litter his usual careful pre-sales examination days before the pup was collected and had found no problems. I get the owner calmed down eventually, but feel that some of the trust between us has been compromised.

All is quite for a fortnight, and then the owner is back on the 'phone. Puppy appeared to have an itchy bum so owner - guess what! - took him to the vet. The vet has given him an anaesthetic - in a breed that is a higher than average anaesthetic risk - to express his anal glands. According to the vet "the hole in one of the glands is very small" so he has booked the puppy in to have his anal glands removed. I've not had anal gland problems in my own lot, so I ask the standard questions as to whether the pup had had diarrhoea and trot off to my own excellent vet for more information. According to him he has never removed anal glands in a dog under 4 years but the owner is convinced by her vet that the surgery is vital. My own vet hasn't seen the pup since the itchy bum started so I can't really argue. Instead I reach into my pocket and offer to pay for the anal gland expression and removal. The bill arrives. £167.29 for the anal gland expression and £313.34 for the anal gland removal. My own vet, my bank manager and I all faint together.

There is another fairly quiet period until the puppy is 5 months old. This time according to the owners vet it has an abscess over his croup and it needs to be drained. Vet says the abcess has happened because the puppy is so thin. The bank manager and I have had enough so I jump in the jeep and go to see the puppy (a mere matter of 500 miles!) I find a perfectly normal, healthy, happy, somewhat spoiled puppy with a small haematoma over his croup, possibly caused during play with his adult companion. There is no sign of heat, infection, a wound or discharge and it isn't even very tender. I suggest that leaving it alone or at most giving prophylactic antibiotic would be a good idea. Vet disagrees. Who am I to argue? The pup has another GA. This time I don't offer to pay. Trust between me and the owner now at an all time low. My own vet laughs like a drain when I get home, and wonders how some vets sleep in their beds at night.

At 9 months the pup has a limp. Vet says that it is OCD which he has definitively diagnosed by doing a joint aspiration ????? Under GA!! And he has put the pup on CALCIUM SUPPLEMENTS!!! Trusty jeep and I set off again. To my non-veterinary eyes the puppy has a pulled muscle in his shoulder. Owner is now looking at me as if I had two heads, but by saying I will pay for it myself "for my own peace of mind" she agrees to a second opinion from a specialist orthopaedic vet. We both go with the pup for his appointment. The limp has vanished now anyway. The specialist vet shrieks to stop the calcium supplements and says the pup is a lovely healthy youngster with no sign whatsoever of OCD. By this stage I've paid out 50% more in vets bills than I charged for the pup.

The puppy is now 16 months and he hasn't been to the vet recently ... but I'm waiting ...

"We now give them a booklet explaining all the 'horrors' that the vet will tell them about when visiting for their first vaccinations, ie the risk of the puppy dying if they do not remove their 'bits' as soon as possible, the hideous death that they will suffer from the raw diet that we advise, the diseases that they will die from due to non-annual vaccinations etc."

My Sales Agreement contains a section saying that the owner must NOT feed BARF or similar until the pup is at least 10 months old (eg has the majority of growing done), MUST have an absolute minimum of the first booster by conventional vaccination and MUST be wormed convetionally until it is at least 6 months of age! :D