just wanted to say I totally agree with the lady who said that she doesnt need to show her dogs to be a good breeder, (min shcnauzers)
I think if you took a cross section of breeders across britain, the majority of them willnot be people who show, they will be pet owners, and the majority of buyers want a pet dog and have no interest whatsoever in poncing around a show ring like a total idiot! :-)
Im glad to see people with alternative viewpoints are coming on here and expressing themselves, show people are a minority amongst dog owners and breeders in the Uk and they should not get away with trying to make out they are better than everyone else just because their dogs have won a few rosettes!

I like that, I'm an idiot who ponces round the ring!!! :D :D :D :D

Many of us do not have a problem with people who don't show breeding, we have a problem with people putting bitch X and Dog Y together we no health tests, not looking for any good of the breed.  Also EVERY good breeder knows putting the right to dogs together is vital.  We want our breeds to improve.  In every litter of say 5 from a breeder who has studied to find the best match to their bitch we might get 2 dogs sutible for showing, (maybe more, maybe less depends on many factors)  the other 3 will go to pet homes because they may be mismarked, too fine, too big many reasons.  They will be deemd no less then the 2 we have of possible show qulity, they shall be sold at the same price (normally, varing on breeds) and go to loving pet homes which would have been homechecked etc and all pups would have health checked parents and be healthcheckd themselves where applicable.

If a breeder who doesn't show/work etc does all this then fine.  But from where we stand not many do.  and admitidly just because people show/work etc, doesn't mean they can breed well either and will put Bitch X to Dog Y

Maybe the majority of dog owners are people looking for a pet, but why should a pet not be healthchecked, reared correctly etc

Many people also breed for money, they are the people we HATE!!!!

I think that you have missed one vital point that has been made time after time:   by attending these shows, you are comparing your own dog to others in the breed, and should therefore be able to make an objective evaluation of the good and bad points of your own dog and also of potential mates.   These potential mates will not necessarily be living in the next street or village or town or county to yourself, but if , as a genuine, concerned breeder, who wishes to breed happy healthy pups, you wish to do the best for your breed, then attending (even if not participating) in dog shows should, in my opinion, be an essential tool in your breeding programme.

I do object to your term "poncing around a show ring like a total idiot" - that so soo perjorative!   Anyone who has seen me knows that I AM a total idiot!  I do not consider myself better than anyone else because I attend shows - I know that I am learning more about my breed every time I attend a show - I can see better (and worse) movement, better (and worse) conformation, coat, temperament - not only in my own breed, but in other breeds too.    Yes, we do come home with some rosettes (more blue and yellow than red :D ) but every time, we come home with more experience - and always the best dogs.

Margot

How about that - two total idiots poncing around the Aussie rings :D

Margot

As someone who neither breeds nor shows, and has no plans to do either, I would say on face value that you are right.  You don't need to show (or work your dogs) to be a good breeder.
BUT, and it's a big but, I would question how much knowledge and research they were able to do if they were not in some way involved with their breed, either working or showing.  Of course it is possible that a breeder could gain the same level of knowledge through spectating, researching and having mentors , and there may be some who do, but sadly I don't think that's the case for many breeders of 'pet' dogs.
I have a 'pet', but I would like to think they same thought and care went into breeding him as did the next crufts or ftch.  One of my pet hates, is when people say it's just a 'pet' as if somehow it is ok to put less knowledge or care into breeding pets.
JMHO

Yes Margot I can just see that!!! you and joe!!!!! ;) :D :D :D

JenP, I agree with "It's just a pet" but I also hate "it's just a show dog" Mine are no-way "just a show dog" they are pets first.  and to some it all up, Crufts BIS last year sleeps on the bed with her mum (owner)!!!!!!! But yes breeding to everydog should be the same, they should all be bred to be the "next champion" IE Improving the breed, a breeder will NEVER get a perfect litter!  Saying that the top 3 dogs in a certain breed are all litter mates, the 4th not doing too bad!  This breeder sits on the floor while dogs on the sofa.....

Rox, I have to confess, it never occured to me that anyone would refer to a dog as "just a show dog", I'd always assumed that they were pets firstly and showing was just part of the enjoyment and interest in dogs, in the same way some work, obedience, agility etc.  And although I appreciate, it was originally a 'showcase' for the best dogs to be bred from, I'd always imagined that these days it is much more of a hobby (ok - an all encompassing and time consuming hobby :D) for those that do it now and obviously breeding plays its part in that.  No offense meant. :D

hi jen,i dont show but do ob. mine are pets first & ob dogs 2nd. infact two are just pets now.
however if i wasnt doing obedience i wouldnt have got flynn. i needed another obedience dog but didnt really need another pet....although he is a pet too!!!maybe not making much sense today!!!!

I usually only make sense to myself anyway :D  I understand what you're saying and agree - it's still a hobby though.  The only point I was trying to make (even if I did it badly) was that theoreticlly, I'm sure it is possible to be a good breeder and not show, work etc, but in order to gain the knowledge one would need to be involved in the breed, even if not personally competing - even though I don't think that was what the originally poster meant. :D

Owning our dogs is a way of life, showing some of them is a hobby in which the dogs can participate, breeding again is a hobby, in which they actively participate.    As with all hobbies, we have enlarged our circle of friends, through showing, through breeding (and I am only talking about 2 litters in 10 years).    I think we are still in touch with 14 out of 16 "puppy" owners - and received condolence cards when Purdey died from the owners of her puppies.

Since we started showing (4 years ago) we have learned far more about how to "look" at a dog than we had in the previous 30+ years of dog owning - mainly, I think, because you see so many more examples at one time.

Regards
Margot

That's exactly how I imagined it would be Margot.  I obviously didn't explain myself well, because I agree with everything that's being said.  My only concession was that someone was that there may be those who not wish to 'go in the ring themselves', and I would imagine as much if not more is done outside the ring, through talking to people at the shows and building up a network of friends and like-minded people, but the involvement would be there nevertheless.  Not sure why I said it though, now, because I would think it's a rarity if it happens at all.  Even if someone starts out that way, I would imagine they soon get hooked and end up doing it anyway. :D

You often find some of the older breeders not showing as much as they used to prefering to take under their wing folk who have bought stock from them or used their dog, as they are aware that they can't keep going forever.  Also in some cases they know much more than the judges avbailabl e for them to show under so confine their own showing to a few select judges whose opinions they want or value, but continue taking an active part in breed club afairs, go to educational events, judge and also breed, even though they may not have themsleves shown a dog for quite some time.

In my breed the top breeder in the breed with the recors for Champions owned or bred maybe can only do half a dozen shows a year now, due to her health making long jourmneys by car a hazard.

there was a 10 year period during which she bred the breed record holder and numerous top sogs for others whenre she couldn't attend shows at all due to work commitments.

All these people have the knowledge and will ahve gained it by ewiyther being involved or with someone closely involced in the breed.  You can't be a good breeder in isolation, which is where many pet owners are,a dn puppy farmers are the amin producers of pups and they don't givbe a damn.

Jen, Most people do have pets first, show/ob/working dogs 2nd, but afew do just see dogs as "show dogs."  Infact I might be wrong, but IMO american's seem to be VERY "just show dogs" and nothing about pets.

Michelle I know what you are saying about Flynn.  In the litter we bred we ended up keep 2.  We wanted a bitch but the dog looked to promising to let him go to a purely pet home so we kept him aswell.  By 10 months the bitch had a head like her mum, whihc wasn't what we wanted (unfortantly a boby like her mum and attitude, all she needed was the good head!) but we could afford to keep another dog that we couldn't also show! We want them to do both!

i dont think you have to either!
there are bad examples of breeds in the rings,even winning.
you could have a show quality pet, & do a huge amount of research on what lines you like etc, & what compliment yours.
not all pet breeders are bad & not all show breeders are good!

The only people I tend to hear say these things are those breeding who do not work or show. Justifying what they are doing.  I don't believe you can assess your breed 100% without one of the two. Say what you like that is my opinion.

People/buyers like nice things in life now.  I can honestly say that pet buyers want the cream of the crop also.   They don't want puppies from Milly at no 10 and Danny and no 11  :-)))   They want to see nicely examples of the breeds and nice pedigrees.

I had a litter recently but only had one puppy so a lady who has waited a while for a puppy was again disappointed. I gave her a number of someone I knew that had a litter not as showy lines.  The next day she called me back and said she would just wait till I had one or could I help her find one with better showy lines. 

She only wanted a pet.  She didn't  quite understand really what was in  the pedigree etc but she knew what "she wanted". Now I know 100% that all the red in pedigrees guarantees nothing so don't say that is what I am saying because I am not  , BUT what I am saying is people do not want any old puppy nowadays. They want to buy from people who put their heart and soul into producing good examples of the breed.

You can convince yourself otherwise if you like.


These same pet breeders who quickly shoot down exhibitors are the first to boast about the CH on the pedigree which is 4 generations back !!!!!!!!!!!  and try and take credit for others hard work...

All just my opinion..

In the buyer's eyes she was being selective. 

Blue - that was what I was trying to say, but obviously said it badly :D

I usually get it worded wrong :-) so makes a change.

OK.  To help me understand the other point of view, can anyone please explain to me how someone who only has experience of their own much loved pet (the way it SHOULD be), who doesn't mix in gatherings of knowledgable doggy folk (in whatever is their chosen discipline) can
a) begin to KNOW the pedigree if they haven't seen any of the dogs - a pedigree is only a collection of names if you don't KNOW the dogs named
b) assess the quality and breeding potential of their bitch, recognising her virtues and faults if they don't compare her to others
c) assess and choose a compatible stud dog without seeing a number for comparison, and from those available, seeing what qualities and faults they have produced before.
d) instantly understand their Breed Standard and apply it critically to their own bitch.  Most pet owners don't even know that there is a blue print for their breed let along understand the anatomy of a dog and know what a good bend of stifle is!  It took me some years to not think that the Breed Standard could mean almost any dog with 4 legs, head and a tail!!
e) if their only experience is keeping one or two dogs as pets, how can they have sufficient experience to help their new pet owners (we keep hearing that it's OK to breed "just pets" - golly I hate that phrase.  To me it's one of the most important jobs that any dog can do!) back up and help when they experience problems?

Michelled I wouldn't expect somone interested in working, agility or obedience to be interested in show dogs, but if they were going to breed, then I would expect them to know about the most successful lines in their field.:)

Val the problem is as far as "pet breeders" see the standard doesn't matter because they won't go into the "show ring" (I know theres also all other feilds of disaplin but i won't list them all al the way though!)

They think a capatible stud dog is the sweet male down the road belonging to their best mates, sisters boyfriend's, parent's just because it is the same breed.

They will never understand how long people who breed to "better the breed" spend looking at pedigrees, dogs (photo's and hands on), how much money goes in to making sure everything is on standby just in case.

They are blinded by their world, and can't see that breeders who also show/work do see the veiws of pet owners, but pet owners can't always see the veiw of people who show/work who are constanly bettering their choosen breed/s for the future generations

But you could say thats MY blinded opinion!

Very true Val - plus a lot of pet breeders (not meant as a derrogatory term ;) ) will be totally unaware of the health issues in their breed that need to be tested for.

I don't like to disparage everyone that breeds who is not involved in the "bigger picture" of their breed - many such folk will think they have done all that is required by ensuring their bitch is fit and healthy, has a good character and they have found what appears to be a healthy and happy stud dog.   They will then possibly go on to make a wonderful job of rearing and socialising puppies in a busy household full of kids and their friends and it probably will be a well reared litter BUT they won't know if they have bred on a hereditary health problem :(  Also I'd be willing to bet that many of them won't have thought about what to do should one or more of their new puppy owners need to return the puppy - possibly months or years down the line.

Teri

 

Val, you are talking about someone like me :D

To me, five years ago, my dogs' pedigrees were just names, some of which I heard about, second, or third hand, or that I had read about.

Now, through attending shows, I can recognise traits in other dogs that come from the same lines as mine - talking to other, far more knowledgable people than I, I can listen to their advice, listen to possibly conflicting advice, go home, research more, and come to my own conclusions.

Dog showing is no "secret society" - I've described it, when we first attended a show, as a "parallel universe" :D

It's going on at an Equestrian Centre, sports centre or community hall close by wherever you live :D    If you can use the internet, you can find out where the nearest show is to you, this weekend!   Go along - 10 am on a cold morning, and you will find stalls set up, selling dog toys, blankets, feeds, collars & leads etc - you will find somewhere to have a cup of coffee or tea, you can buy a catalogue, and then just watch what is going on!

Go on - you might find you enjoy it as well as learning something

Margot

the way i see it val, you can still research the lines you like,visit stud dogs that you like,talk talk talk.
you can visit dogs you like at home,maybe after seeing off spring/pics/videos. you can even visit shows to see whats around even if you do not show yourself.
you can ask ,maybe the breeder of your pet,what lines/dogs around at the moment compliment yours.

if you are interested in any breed,there are seminars to attend,& books to read & learn from,as to weather your "pet" is good quality

and they can health check

if they do all of that,i really fail to see a problem if their only failing "is that they dont show"

yes i do know what breed dogs i like,& what i dont.even though i dont show
i also know what isds dogs i like,even though i dont sheep trial
i also know what lines i like in WT/ag that are doing well,yet i dont compete in these

i also know what "obedience" lines i love & if i ever decide to breed in the future i have a great mentor who researches pedigrees & could advise me on my choices

Michelle, YOU DO OBEDIENCE!!  (Sorry was that a bit loud??;) ) That's what I call mix in gatherings of knowledgable doggy folk
YOU know your lines.  YOU know your health problems.  And YOU where to find out information.  So you know people who know!  You already have some experience yourself and also have a  network of knowledge available to you if you decide to breed a litter. 
That's exactly my point. :)

yes but anyone can look up breeders and type on the net now cant they?
although i dont breed show,but im really interested in breed lines,especially if they are related to my dog.
so whats to stop a "pet" breeder also being really interested in theirs!!!!!????
they can buy dog world like the rest of us,read the breed notes & critiques & gain knowledge.

now,i DONT know how many would do,but if they were genuinely interested in their breed,then the fact that they did not show or the fact that theirs may be aliitle to big/little/fine/heavy whatever for the currrent big winners wouldnt worry me,if i was buying a pet,as long as i liked what i saw,were healthy& parents health checked,then i would.

what i wouldnt do was buy a pet from a too young/too old bitch that was mated to the nice dog next door!!!

But i think thats what alot of us are saying.  pet people can breed if they do the research, but it seems to me that very few acctully bother with all the research.  If I was looking for a pet, a pet which i had no intentions of ever doing anything with I think I would still liek to go to a breeder where I can say "my pups dad won BOB at crufts last year!" not knowing what I ment I would like to be able to say that if i had a pet!  As it is "my dogs half brother is top red and white!!!!!!" half sister 2nd, another half brother 3rd.....she is....nearly had a RCC!!!!!!! lol

Hi Michelled,

>what i wouldnt do was buy a pet from a too young/too old bitch that was mated to the nice dog next door!!! <

A lot of the general public wouldn't know if a bitch was of the correct age :(  Look at some of the visitors who post on here about their breeding plans - and they obviously have made use of the internet to find this forum in the first place ;) 

I couldn't begin to count how many pet owners of pedigree dogs I've met just in the last 12 months who've used the bog standard "my dog's got a pedigree as long as your arm" phrase - they don't know what a registration certificate is or what it's for  never mind who the dogs in their "pedigree" are or what they are like physically, mentally, etc etc :rolleyes:

Credit to you for doing your research and anyone else who is not interested in taking up a canine discipline but still tries to find out as much as possible AND, vitally, has an experienced mentor in their breed - but I don't think you're in the majority.

Regards, Teri :)

im very sad! at ob shows i spend my lunch time readingthe catalogues,finding out who is related to who etc,also i will get the number of dogs i like & look them up, & even with gsds etc,which are not my breed i like to know what lines are behind the ones i like.
for margot & rox in aparticalar,ive got a few friends with aussies,so just for fun i look at aussie lines,whats doing well & what leaves me cold!!not that i want one....but like to be informed!
its because im "interested" i suppose, ive got friends in ob who have no idea if a half bro to their dog is in the next ring or not!so i know not everybody is interested in it,
there are alot of newbies /guests on here that should NOT be breeding,no- way hose! but i would not rule out someone,who was breeding pets,(maybe of a older type for instance,or a unfashionable type that they happened to love)who KNEW their breed,
am i making any sense? because i do understand & agree what you are all saying,but there are exceptions!!!!!!

I wouldn't rule someone out, just because they didn't show - if they know what they are doing and why they are doing it, and who do all the health tests/checking :D   I would however, rule someone out who was very defensive about NOT showing/participating in obedience/working/etc if they didn't do it because "only people who ponce around do that :D "

Margot

You're making perfect sense Michelle.  I don't think that you're sad at all, but unfortunately I do think that you are a rarity :o if you look at the number of threads that say
" Looking for a ***breed stud, within 1 mile of my home" - no mention of lines, qualities, health test results etc.
Others that say "I've mated my bitch.  How long until the pups will arrive?"
These people are just producing pet puppies, often poorly and barely recognisable as their breed, to sell to unsuspecting families who don't realise that there is more to dog breeding than to put a male and female with a pedigree together!!
As I've said before, in the parlour I've trimmed Yorkies with woolly coats the size of cockers.  Westies with thin, soft coats and sore, pink skin, forever at the Vets, many not making 5 years old having been pumped full of steroids.  Slab sided Cockers needing aural resections before they are 2 years old.  Cavaliers the size of Cockers, instead of the toy dogs that the owners were hoping for, who needed luxating patella ops before they were 6 months old.  All bred locally by owners who fancied "having a litter!"
Of course there are always the exceptions, like the heavily marked Dally, but we're an open forum and will be read by the majority who have no comprehension of what breeding happy, healthy pups who are a good representative of their breed is all about.  I think that you'll find that we're singing from the same hymn sheet! :)

I was hoping for some replies from those who are breeding from their "only pets" with little knowledge of what is behind either their bitch or the chosen stud dog, other than "they are lovely"! 

yes of course id never condone them breeding!!!!

"yes but anyone can look up breeders and type on the net now cant they?"

Researching isn't enough and it only tells you some information. health issues etc etc

The real learning is sitting at shows and watching dogs, Learning about the breed only comes from UNDERSTANDING the actual breed.. Movement cannot be understood from a book. Correct shoulders cannot be learned from a book. A picture is all but a picture .  You have to feel, see and watch. that is where the learning comes it.  A pedigree is only a pedigree..  what about " Type" how does someone understand or define it.. NOT from the internet and a book..

I am a novice and never kidd myself otherwise but one who believes learning is done on your feet and always with steady guidance!!!!.

i didnt mean it like that blue,i meant it as a way of talking to people with quality dogs that the showing people would meet at shows!

& anyway theres alot more to understanding anybreed than simply watching it in the showring

"& anyway theres alot more to understanding any breed than simply watching it in the showring "

totally agree with your Michelle  :-)) and never and would never dispute that. The thread however  is following the line of, " you don't have to show to breed"  

Information is collected from various sources, people, experience. The ones I mention cannot be gotten from a book or the internet.

it all helps though!!!to get a big picture
its one way to view some lines etc,before you go & see what you like in person,IF you arent showing

There is a "lady"who breeds pet Cockers & GSDs  near me, she uses the nearest dog at stud & does no tests at all & has no idea of what the two breeds should look like nor what health problems they have & sells her dogs at the same price as breeders who do all the health tests & researches the bloodlines. She even breeds from dogs that have health problems(epileptic GSD bitch has just had 12 puppies to her own stud who is the bitches G father-shes not keeping one as this litter is to pay off some bills!)

I get telephone calls to use my Cavalier dogs at stud on pet bitches, these bitches are on the whole from other breeders who have bred from pet dogs & I get called all sorts of things because I say no & ask them about the health & pedigrees of their bitches. I do not hide the fact that one of my boys has Syringohromyelia & so obviously is never going to be used at stud, I been called a snobbish bitch & a lot worse,becuse they have the right to use my dogs if they want to !!

It breeding was solely in the hands of these people the breeds would quickly have no resembalance to the orginal breed, especially if they get a puppy that is a different colour, coat type, size character  etc etc

"It breeding was solely in the hands of these people the breeds would quickly have no resembalance to the orginal breed, especially if they get a puppy that is a different colour, coat type, size character  etc etc

I've trimmed some of those MM!! :(  Westies who's only remblance to the Breed Standard is that they are white and have 4 legs and a tail!!

They tend to have lovely fluffy soft coats don't they lady who came to our training club bought two from puppy dealers to start breeding from ! She thought they should have a coat like a cavaliers !

I've read this thread thinking of one person who  gave up showing after 30+ years because in her view what was in the ring bore only an increasingly passing resemblance to what the breed standard says. She still breeds and given a choice between her and some of today's "top show breeders", I know where I'm going!

There's always the exception Jas.  After 30+ in the breed, your lady hopefully knows what she's doing.  That's very different from the confidence of ignorance! :(
I also don't think that success in the show ring is necessarily the be all and end all.  But it is a good learning ground for those with no knowledge and understanding of the Breed Standard and genetics.  There's a lot that can be learned from sitting and watching from the ringside, and talking and touching for a couple of years - if only to learn what lines NOT to go near!!

>There's a lot that can be learned from sitting and watching from the ringside, and talking and touching for a couple of years - if only to learn what lines NOT to go near!! <

Very true, Val :P

Teri

I agree with you Val

If I was to purchase another KC registered Beardie I would also go to someone who has been in the breed for years but no longer shows & whose dogs are the type that could do the job they were originally bred to do or a breeder who got her first dog from me & still breeds to the same type

I certainly wouldn't go to the local breeder who breeds from her pet dogs & bitches & has no knowledge of pedigrees or the breed(she doesn't health test either)

And sadly this is exactly what is happending with the popular breeds.  How often so we have to argue with fold about what size and colours a Yorkie should be???

That's all very well providing these people only breed from pets which have been screened clear of hereditary conditions and meet the breed standard. Unfortunatly many of them have never even heard of the breed standard, let alone read and understood it! Then they have to be unbiased enough to realistically take a look at their loved pet. How many times have we heard 'he's a perfect XXXX' when the perfect dog has never been born?

Or is it all right for pet puppies to be unhealthy and look nothing like the breed they're supposed to? Personally I think pet owners deserve better than that.

i agree i dont think anyone thats not a breader should be able to breed i made a big mistake buying from a couple who have breed their dog twice with the same sire and i think only for money.the result was 8 pups only 2 surviving with neurological problems.if they had the experience of a proper breeder perhaps thease pups could have been born safe and healthy.

I am surprised how few of you have mentioned the stud dog owners role in this.  I have quite a few enquires but I turn down a lot because speaking personally I do not want my dogs name on the pedigree of a dog which is not suitable.  Yes some of them he does mate with may have minor faults as my own dogs do and yes some of them are pets but I feel it is my responsibility to check the reasons why they are breeding and I then check if in my opinion they are suitable.  I also make it my responsibility to ensure that they get all the help they can and also go and check the litters and if I was not happy with what I saw I would not use him.

I also think it is very sad that the guest poster considers we all look stupid going around the ring.  They obviously do not understand the concept of dog showing which is it is the dogs which are watching  not the owners and quite honestly I shall always be eternally grateful for the stud dog owner who picked out my puppy from my first litter for opening up a whole new world for me.  Thanks to "poncing round a show ring" my dogs are better cared for and I have a much greater knowledge than I could have ever hoped by actually speaking to people and watching learning.

Hy t-t-s,

>I am surprised how few of you have mentioned the stud dog owners role in this.<

I think most of us included the stud dog in with the entire post despite not specifically breaking it down - but your right to draw attention to it for the benefit of those for whom that particular "role" is seen as a separate entity ;)

>I also think it is very sad that the guest poster considers we all look stupid going around the ring<

How true - but a fact of life for some less informed :(  Hopefully if the same issues get raised often enough and answered tactfully but honestly the message will get across to a wider audience.

Regards, Teri :)

lol - next time I am in the ring I am going to wonder what I look like!

I also think temperment is a big factor. I went to meet a prospective stud dog a few weeks ago who was a champ & had sired champs, tied in with my bitches pedigree, had all health check etc BUT he was not very friendly :-(  - he did not bite or anything - he just 'looked' unfriendly & backed off from me when I tried to say hello.

I did not use him despite being a great match for my bitch.

The one we used had all the checks & pedigree was compatable but had not done too well at shows - not a bad 'type' of dog, just would not behave in the ring.
When I went to meet him he jumped all over me & licked me to death!!

So he was my choice - as temperment to me is one of the main things I look for as long as health tests have been done & the dog is not a bad example of the breed!

I am a pet owner/ occasional breeder but intend to get in the ring with my next addition providing he arrives!

I hip score, i eye test, i research my pedigrees, i visit potential stud dogs in their own homes, have a good chat with the stud owner and follow the progress of many many dogs in the ring without actually being there. I put an awful lot of time and effort into my breeding and try my damndest to produce puppies that grow up to be good examples of the breed, some have gone on to be shown and done quite well. I pride myself on the teperaments of my dogs and their progeny.

I know people who do show, who are quite successful in the ring and thoroughly enjoy it. They breed their 4 litters as allowed by the kennel club every year as opposed to my 2. Some of these people i know produce some terrible examples due to lack of research etc etc. Not all of their dogs used for breeding are eye tested and hip scored.

However, i am quite often seen and described as a "back yard breeder" because i do not show. I agree that it is rather sad that so long as people show their breeding mistakes are brushed under the carpet and are never spoken about.

I suppose thats the way life goes.

I look forward to showing my new addition and joining the elite. I only hope i am not bitched out of the ring by the old timers as has happened to some of my other friends.

I hasten to add that the people with these negative views are in the minority, i have had lots of support regardless of my not showing my dogs. It is just unfortuate that the minority are much louder and have a bigger effect than the majority.

thedark,

That is all very well.. BUT are you using your puppies acheivements of others showing them to grade how well your breeding line is doing??

If not how do you do it.. ??

I do not have my own breeding line. I am merely carrying on other peoples good work. for now. As i said i will be showing soon (fingers crossed lol) and will be starting my own line, with dogs from my own affix, and following the advise of someone with many more years experience with this breed than me. Having not been in this breed for a decade yet i cannot claim to have my own line and i still have a lot to learn and follow the advice given to me by those more knowlegable.

Since 95% of my pups go to pet homes i pride myself on providing families with healthy, sound family members. There is more to it than how many show wins my pups have had. It only serves as a good indication that i am producing type as well as health and temperament in everything i breed. Until i myself am showing i will not be grading anything i have done with showing success.

My point was that i do not show yet i have produced good examples of the breed on numerous occasions. What more could anyone ask?
I believe I am a caring consienscious breeder and i make a point of putting health testing high on my list of priorities along with temperament and type.