Look, im not trying to defend ANYONE involved in dog fighting.

What i am trying to put forward is some of the facts, because better understanding of what ACTUALLY happens can only be useful.

Im sure there ARE people who do such revolting things as tape older dogs muzzles up and use them as bait, or steal cats and puppies or wahtever and use THEM as bait. There will be people who will think this is an amusing thing to do, think it trains a dog to fight or whatever.

I can say now i CANNOT understand where someone gets enjoyment from watching a dog fight, any more than i can understand someone who gets enjoyment from watchin humans fight.

But, the 'old school' dog men, they NEVER bred fighting dogs and sold them in loot to familys with small children, never sold a dog in a pub to a complete stranger.

Yes, the facts i have frmo these people are 'from the horses mouth' because i would not ever dream of attending any such event. But my sources of information are no weaker or likely to be flawed as anyone elses on thsi matter, unless YOU have bene and SEEN people using other animals as bait, you cannot say for definate that you KNOW it happens.

The fact is a lot of the information on this subject is simply idle conjecture, a lot of rubbish is talked about dog fighting just like any other 'hot topic' and its VERY easy to believe that someone who matches their dogs and enjoys, takes pride in their dogs 'skill' at fighting is also an evil cruel nasty person.

Sadly human beings are FAR more complex than that, nothing is EVER black and white, as much as we may wish it was.

Em

how can someone "who takes pride in their dog" risk its life in a fight?
it makes no sense

Well I think dogs should meet around the table and sort out their differences calmly and peaceably - no need for all this fighting......;)

Lol! What a lovely idea! :) :) :) Then they could all go out for a pizza afterwards! :) :D

....and then a pint down at the Dog & Duck ! :)

:D

imo anyone who says that aspects of dog fighting isnt cruel are just as bad as those who fight them!!!!

With the dogs being put in a pit and are faced with another dog, they have a fight or flight reaction, now we all know they cant escape from the pit, so they are forced to fight, probably out of fear!  And through lack of socialisation!
Dog fighting is cruel, and even if there was the tiniest possibility that the dog DID want to fight, i dont think it matters!  They are being torn apart!  I'm sure most of you by now have seen the horrific images of dogs legs being taped together, muzzle taped up and left to starve to death wherever they have been dumped if they refuse to fight anymore.  And yes, if u have seen animal cops on animal planet you would see how terrified these poor pitbulls are when they are rescued!  They are shaking and hiding!  And even more sadly are pts!  So you tell me dog fighting isnt cruel cos when these dog fights get busted all those dogs get pts!  What a sad waste of a life :(
anyone who thinks this sport is not cruel should not own dogs! 

Ta for that..... ill go and shoot myself in the head now.

Cruelty is all around us. For something to be cruel, IMO, the person or animal involved has to be FORCED to do something against their will. You cannot force a dog to fight. You can bring him up to WANT to fight, you can encourage him to fight rather than run away.
For an act to be cruel, the animal or person involved would have to have an understanding of the dangers inherent in that act. A dog most probably does understand that he may be injured, and thats one of the areas i have difficulty wtih. That said, dogs are far more likely to use aggression and violence than such animals as horses etc, and the types of dogs used for dog fighting cope with the adrenaline rush from fighting and fear in a far different way than we ourselves would.

To discuss an issue like this, you need to remove all 'anthropmorphism'... dogs are not humans, they do not think like we do, they do not react like we do, they do not have emotiosn that we have.

There ARE people who will force dogs to fight against their will. And ill tell you now, these people do it with no thought, wont be making any  money out of it (who is going to bet on a dog that is going to lose because he doesnt watn to fight?) they do it because they enjoy seeing one animal rip another apart.

The other kind of dog fighters, who, whilst taking part in an activity i still find sickening myself, do N OT put a dog that doesnt watn to fight, in with one that does. Thats like sending a horse that hates jumping round hickstead, or a dog that is terrified of sheep to a sheepdog trials. There is no point, no one will bet on it, and the owner of the dog guaranteed to win doesnt gain anything from that 'match'.

Yes, the fights take place in a pit. Generally, although i cant say for certain, the fights take place because each dog is 'faced' off against the other and wound up to fight. You go along to any working terrier show, and you'll see dogs willing to rip each others legs off for no other reason than they are both game terriers with an urge to win. So i wouldnt say that these dogs are desperately trying to getOUT of the pit rather than fight, if they WERE there would be no point in matching those dogs together!

Understanding these differences between the two types of person who are involved in dog fighting CAN help the dogs themselves.

That said, you will rarely come across the big boys in dog fighting, they wont advertise their dogs for sale, although they'll sell dogs for thousands of pounds, you wont hear about it ever.

I was never defending dog fighting, im still not. Things happen there that are sickeningly cruel, but the ACT of the actual fight is not, its immoral, its revolting that people gain enjoyment from it, but two dgos want to fight, and two dogs fighting, is not cruel.
The things that go along with it, dumping dogs, abusing dogs, using live animasl as bait, those things are cruel and id never ever say they werent!

Sadly i think for the majority of dogs taken from dog fighters like THAT the only option for them IS to be pts, they are too psycologically scarred for anything else and they, as a product of their creators are dangerous to humans and other dogs alike.

I think, from what i know of ex/retired fighting dogs bred and fought by the 'other' kind of dog fighter, these often live out their lives, albeit as stud dogs/brood bitches for another generation of fighters, as 'pets'....

Im not pretending either type of dog fighter is a good person, or someone i want to associate with, but i dont think saying 'its sick its cruel its disgusting and anyone who does it is a waste of space' is a useful discussion.

And, to take this back to the DDA.... i think that legislation has made dog fighting amongst todays generation FAR more popular and actually increased the amount of potentially dangerous dogs on the streets. I know of at least two pit bulls, and hundreds more staffie x's supposed to BE pit bulls, aand thats  just in my town. These dogs are bought by people who profess to fight them, although i dont think many actually DO, but its dodgy, its 'hard' and it gains 'respect' from similarly dodgy people. These are the dogs who are goaded, under socialised and pushed into being fear aggressive, unpredictable and thus dangerous dogs.

Em

Em, re your mention of anthropomorphism and dogs not thinking, acting or having emotions like us .... if you ever can, get hold of "When Elephants Weep - the emotional lives of animals" by Jeffrey Masson. It's one of the recommended books for my animal behaviour course and is written scientifically. There is much debate now about just how far apart or not we all are and many scientists are now questioning this anthropomorphism aspect. I was interested to learn that not so long ago, BABIES were operated on without anaesthetic with similar reasoning we use to explain our difference to animals...and that initially many scientists such as Darwin, referred to animal discoveries using emotion. It's a fascinating book :)

Lindsay
X

i had a friend in high school who bred SBT with his parents,& he had to seperate male dogs,& had to keep certain male dogs on a chain when walking because they just wanted to fight non stop,it was just natural,my freind said he came across this with a lot of adult males quiet often.the guy never encouraged them,he just said some of the male's where naturaly competetive with each other.

i think dog fighting is for the mentally ill, to train and breed a dog to fight for pleasure is totally and morally wrong as they say a murderer usally harms animals. The people caught doing  this should be thrown into the pit to be wripped to schreds to see how they like it.  Just recently i was walking in my local park with my children and my sister, three males were setting their dogs on each other, because one of the dogs was not reacting he then began to batter the dog, i interupted them and we all ended up arguing, i then pointed it out to the park rangers the men then moved on.  If one of those dogs got loose they could of attacked use!  My point is it's totally cruel to say it's not cruel is like saying black is not black.   The dogs may have been bred to fight it doesn't mean they want to do it as you said theemax it's been bred into them so that choice has been taken away from them! most of the dogs are in complete agony or even die i'm sure if the dog had a larger brain and was not bred specifically to do this it would choose not to, then i suppose they wouldn't even have an idiot telling them what to do.  I hear and see the same people who do this taking there dogs to a park near me and then letting there dogs go onto peoples pets.  It's sick and anyone who condones it is sick aswell as far as my views go and i'm sure alot of people feel the same.  It's shame really the bull breeds wouldn't be on the danderous act except for man who corrupts everything he touches even a loyal companion who puts his life in his hands.

I HAVE seen the police videos from under police who have bravely infiltrated these "Old Time Dogmen's inner circle"& the video's of the remains of pet dogs & cats which have had their heads & bodies torn to bits speak for themselves

Sorry but to believe in what these people have told you is very niave & the undercover police are brought in from outside the area & are given totally fake ID's including being arrested at fights & being taken to court to safeguard their lives. The dog fighting community of all types are very very nasty people

<The fact is a lot of the information on this subject is simply idle conjecture, a lot of rubbish is talked about dog fighting just like any other 'hot topic' and its VERY easy to believe that someone who matches their dogs and enjoys, takes pride in their dogs 'skill' at fighting is also an evil cruel nasty person>

No doubt they are the salt of the earth & nice to kids & play father christmas to orphans too.

Dog fighting is against the LAW not  recent law but over 100 years old & they are criminals & it has been shown that people you have no regard to animals when young go on to have no regard to humans in later life. So these lovely dog fighters you have such regard are any different ?? The videos I have seen have shown young children around 10/12 years of age being involved in the preparation & enjoyment of the fights this way ensuring this CRIMINAL action is perpetuated for another generation

I am aware that the pits are not a hole in the ground & that there is a points system etc to rate the dogs that survive & extensive training goes on, however in the remains of the pets that had been used to train these people loving fighting dogs there were illegal class A substances that would mean the poor animals would have been having their mental states altered to make better training material

If these people had any respect for non human life they would not indulge in this CRIMINAL pasttime, no amount of pride in their dogs beating other dogs can replace the respect we should all have for the life of any living creature

Theemx just try crossing one of these lovely people & you would soon find out what they are really like, they blamed(totally incorrectly)a SBT owner who had refused a stud to a pit fighting bitch(she turned up covered in old scars & with half an ear missing & was obviously NOT a SBT)for their fight venue being raided, he had his house fire bombed in the early hours of the morning & would have died along with his dogs had they not woken him & allowed him time to escape. Sorry these people ARE the scum of the earth & I hope they rot in hell when they die along with all others of their ilk

Nothing anyone can say can defend or explain a love of this CRIMINAL event

To try to even play devils advocate leaves me aghast if they want to watch a fight to the death or that involves inflicting horrific injuries why don't they stage their own gladiator event with humans fighting each other as the Romans did 2000 years ago-can't do that as they might get hurt or even die shame

Cheers Teri :)

(Back now!)

Lindsay
X

Another thought i had is that dog used for fighting are like Roman gladiators :( - they would not, indeed could not, have a life apart from training and fighting. You certainly couldn't take them out and let them off the lead because they might kill another dog. I wonder if they get outdoors much at all - probably not; i suspect most "exercise" is on the treadmill with the idea of building up stamina and muscles, plus other exercises which would shape them into fighting dogs such as tugging and pulling.

I doubt also if they get socialised and have any other canine friends, nor know the joy of having fun with owner and other dogs and sniffing around the forests or fields. It must be a terrible, sad life. IMO the men or women who do this and who profess to love their dogs don't - they just enjoy the kudos, and the fact that it gives them some dubious standing amongst their community.

Lastly, constant surges of adrenalin must be bad for long term health (we know it is for other mammals). I suspect long term health isn't considered that important.

And to Jas, (think it was Jas) I doubt very muc if owners of fighting dogs know more about dogs than peeps on Champdogs - they may know about their own pedigree and may knowabout training a fighting dog, and how to stich up a dog - but that would be all. So they wouldn't put other people to shame at all IMO.

Lindsay
X

I tried to edit my last post but too late - I feel the people who profess to be the better dog fighters/owners, whatever one's view, are still continuing/perpetuating/promoting the (underground) dog fighting that goes on all over the world and that is enough for me to totally condemn them, because even if one agree with the assumption that fighting dogs love to fight (and I personally do not) they are still promoting all the other cruelty that goes with it, the pet stealing, drug administration etc...

Lindsay
X

Believe me this is a barbaric and ruthless 'sport' - WSPA has worked undercover in Russia ( where dog fighting is big business ) and I have seen some of the footage that Trevor has secretly filmed - suffice to say that the use of pets (usually stolen ) to train dogs is commonplace, I have seen Cavaliers, Labradors and Golden Retrievers being killed in the name of the sport not to mention  many many  cats - the suffering is immense and almost as bad is the enjoyment that the spectators seem to take in causing such suffering.

The terriers themselves have short brutal lives and are only valued as long as they are able to fight - if they do not die of their injuries they are then used in their turn as training fodder once they are too old to put up a 'good show' - most never reach their third birthday.

I cannot think that the training methods used in this country vary greatly and certainly the mentality that drives dog fighting is very prevalent here - the view that animals can be abused for our enjoyment is certainly part of certain sections of our society.:(

Yvonne

I quite agree Lindsay

I've met in the US some lovely rescues that have been bred to fight & they were some of the nicest characterwise dogs you could wish to meet & none of them were dog to dog aggressive & one lady who had fice such dogs. They weren't the prettiest of dogs but true beauty comes from within & I could have been tempted to sneak one black & white away with me

Dog fighting is dog fighting is dog fighting.  You cannot tell me now, or ever, that a dog is born to fight, enjoys it and doesn't need to be 'trained' to fight.  Dogs may be 'born' fighters, like different breeds are 'born' hunters, but that skill has to be honed.  IMO, the year is 2005, the age of dogs being a commodity has long since past.  (Or should be).

Please don't think that people will not bet on the 'other' type of fighting dog.  The ones we're now discussing as 'forced' to fight.  People bet on these dogs all of the time.  And I have my facts straight as I work for a police department and have witnessed rings broken up.  I have seen the treadmills, the bite sleeves, the bite ropes and the large amounts of cash that pass hands. 

For argument's sake, let's say that dogs love to fight.  Let's say that they get in a ring and automatically know what to do.  Does this make it less cruel?  Are we not the more advanced species?  Have we not taken these dogs into our care?  Would it not be up to me to channel their interests into positive activities?  If the dog fighting itself isn't cruel, is it not cruel to deny this very social animal any contact with the 'outside' world? 

And please do not compare fighting dogs to police dogs.  Police K9's are a very select group of dogs that have been temperament tested to the extreme.  Any dog that shows the slightest edge towards aggression is disqualified and will not be used as a K9.  K9's are also not trained to fight to the death or extreme injury.  They are instructed to bring the perpetrator out of hiding, to the ground at times, etc. 

To say that dogs used as bait is hearsay is ludicrous.  I have a dog that was used as bait.  His ears have been cut off with a pair of scissors, his flanks are scarred, as are his feet and ankles.  That, coupled with his attitude, is how I know he was used as bait.  Perhaps using dogs as bait is not as prevelant in Europe, but here, in the US, it's very popular.

fortunatly these crewl sports have been banned :) and most people cant understand why people like to see animals be injured by others :) I hate the thought of any animals killed in these ways and seen by a minorty as entertainment , and im happy its becoming reconised more and more as crewl :) Im not veggy animals used for a purpose and killed in a humain way is what I like thats why i buy organic ;) free range animals