Just rescued the most gorgeous lurcher 'Alfie' much to the disgust of my much loved 13 year old terrier x 'Scruffy', who persists in his attempts to have his wicked way with him. I believe this is a dominance thing (which is understandable especially as its been house for years), but how long can I expect this to last and whats the best way of dealing with it.  Fortunately, Alfie is the placid type, but does get fed up with it and retaliates. Can't say I blame him. Its mostly 'handbags at dawn', but it did get pretty scary last night when admittedly I made the mistake of giving them both a treat at the same time and they started to 'scary fight'. I'm happy to say some status quo has resumed - for now!

To be honest, the quickest way of sorting it out is for the owner to do nothing.  Interfeering disrupts the natural sorting out process.  Occasionally the disagreement between two dogs escalates to the point of one or both needing vet treatment - at this point it would be wise to ask for a recommendation or referal to a behaviourist from the vet, as there may be something more deep seated which needs behavioural modification.

HTH

Personally I feel that there is a time when an owner should intervene!  Not that I'm saying you are there yet by the way ;) - I think once you become familiar with doggy language and especially your own dogs then you will know when you need to exert your dominance over individuals.  I sometimes feel that my dog is perfectly within her rights to tell another off (and sometimes not)  At least you know not to feed them treats together!
See how they go, give them time to settle and well done on getting a rescue ;)
Sarah

Make sure you aren't behaving towards them in a way that would undermine Scruffy's rank - that is, if you're giving out treats make sure Scruffy gets the first one; he gets fed first, petted first and so on.  Don't exclude Alfie, but try to work with their ranks.  And let them sort themselves out of course :)

But sometimes it  isn't the existing dog who has the higher natural rank, and we can't engineer the dogs rank by the way we treat it, indeed sometimes this exaserpates the problem :(

Right now the pack order isn't clear and neither dog should be treated as the dominant dog.  You understand you made a mistake in giving them both treats...should you want to treat them again, place them in separate rooms and give each a treat in it's own place away from each other.

You can expect it to go on until Alfie puts his foot down so-to-speak.  I do not intervene in dog fights unless I need to although it's difficult to explain when you 'need' to.  I don't agree with waiting until they need to go to the vet but just before that point is where it should be broken up.  It's something you learn from experience.  If you constantly break up the fights (for example) neither dog has the opportunity to establish dominance.

Good luck with it, it can be scarey but typically the fights break up before anyone gets hurt.  Just keep an eye on it...a scratch here or there isn't anything to worry about.  Things that are ok are posturing, snapping, vocalization, pinning...what you don't want is an all out rolling around the house fight.  You'll be able to tell when neither dog is giving up.

Sorry can't agree here, if you are the 'pack leader' which is what you have created in this situation then YOU have to tell both dogs that this situation is not acceptable.  By which I mean if any posturing/dominance aggression is being exerted by either dog you tell them this is not acceptable in your house, either by removing them from the situation (putting both dogs outside together) or by being sufficiently stern so that both dogs are in no doubt as to who is in charge.

I don't agree with your suggestion Caz - and this is why.......  Two dogs living together need to know their position with in the canine pack, which can only ever include the canines living in the house - not the humans, because humans can't communicate in the same way to the dogs to get their message over.  By supressing their natural urge to asses their relevant positions in the way you suggest you are simply putting a lid on a boiling pot - at some stage there is every likely hood that it will 'boil over', with potentially very nasty consequences when you are not around.  It's far better (IMHO) to allow them to determine their own positions within the pack, with minimum input form the humans, as this should allow for a long term solution with contented relaxed dogs who are not waiting for the human to intervene at each interaction between them.

To put my perspepective on this subject, I have a 7 yr bitch, Ella, a 2 1/2yr male and a 9 week old bitch. Ella is alpha dog with my 2 1/2 yr old boy and she insisted on it from day 1, with him being a boy, he gladly accepted. Although I know this isn't always the case with males and females, just a generalisation. 

Ella has now stamped her mark on the female pup and at this stage has left her in no doubt as to who is the boss, It looks and sounds very nasty indeed when an older dog disciplines a pup, but I never interfere as they have to establish hierachy and the sooner the better in my book. My male sits on the sidelines and socialises with both at an equal level, he has also warned the pup at to what is acceptable, but she behaves totally differently with my boy, she takes more liberties and plays more aggresively with him, with Ella, she is on best behaviour at all times and knows when to back off if things are going to turn against her. It absolutely fascinates me to watch the dynamics and the re-establishing of pack order, but unless one of them was in real danger, under no circumstances would I get involved, it would cause too much confusion for them. Someone I know will not tolerate her dogs posturing and growling at each other and always interferes, one day, her back was turned and the dogs badly hurt each other.  

With my own dogs I ahve always taken the position that they can sort themselves out but I am the final arbiter.  I will not allow bullying or things to go to far and an 'Oi, pack it in' soon has things as they should be.

Maybe I am lucky in that Elkhound (in my experience and those of my freinds) prefer to live and let live and are not our to prove a point with other dogs all the time as long as they are not put upon.

I often have toally strange dogs visit and stay a few days or weeks and my lot largely ignore them, but don't take any messing.  Because of this my lot can travel with any of my freinds dogs, ro completely strange ones of any breed from Italian Greyhounds to Dobermans.

I also disagree Caz.  There's a major difference in the dogs knowing that you're the leader and where they fall in amongst themselves.  2 dogs cannot manage to be on the same level and live in harmony.  Out of my 6, my female is the undisputed alpha and my first male is the very last in the order...the in between dogs sometimes vie for position amongst themselves but because there is an established leader it's never much of a fight.  No matter what they're pack status is they undoubtedly know that my word is the final one.  The op needs to let the dogs sort out where they rank and move from there.

I have to go with everyone else on this Caz. I lost my Alpha last June, she was amazing. she 'sorted' everything, her posture, body language etc, was amazing. she would rise to full height from a down position in very slow powerful way and all around her stopped what they were doing. In the 7.5 years she was Alpha I never had a single fight.  When I lost her, I was left with 5 bitches and a dog, it has taken them nearly 6 months to sort themselves into their new arrangement. It was not the next one on the rung of the ladder who took over, but a female who came in 3 years after her. Emma is nearly 6 but only been with me 18months, she has only just assumed this role, I knew she would eventually but I had to let them sort it out for themselves.  She is not as strong as Megan was but she has a subtlety that Megan never had.  Mind you, Little Ellie at 5months, thinks the Alpha role is her divine right. A few splats here and there lets her know otherwise :D  I just let them get on with it. with 6 bitches in the house, I keep out of the way as much as possible, it is so easy to upset the balance. (the dog keeps out of their way too) Stand back and watch them, get to know their body language, It will help you understand them a little more.

I'm afraid I don't agree with you either Caz. The dogs need to determine their ranking between themselves, because they sure won't accept being equal! It's best if that's done with all the normal posturing and swearing, with the owner present to call 'time' if it looks like turning bloody. If they're prevented from determining status with the owner present, they'll do it in her absence - with possibly fatal results.

Just out of curosity how many of you who are advising on this thread have seen your dogs really fight, I don't mean just a spat but a fight where if you cannot separate them they literally tear each other to pieces and go on until they are too tired or too badly hurt to carry on?

Yep, been there.  Years ago when I had an OES a friend visited with her pyrie. They both spotted a slice of bread, My husband spent 5 days in hospital and a further 8 months physical rehabilitation.
My dad bred border terriers, and one was attacked by a pitbull (this was 30 years ago) and only way to get PB's teeth unlocked was for owner to kick it in the throat. But in saying that they had just about ripped each other apart before we could get hold of either to seperate, both dogs needed extensive surgery, and neither was for giving in.  My 2 ESS Connie and Megan hated each other with a vengence. Connie would have killed Megan if left to her own devices. I have the scars to prove it :D They ate through a wall to get to each other

I've been there too :( My old Shepherd hated with a vengence our next doors dog, this was 15 yrs ago, and they got together one day, next doors dog chewed through the fence into our garden and came in through the back door Terrible fight ensued, blood everywhere and next doors dog ended up being put to sleep because of her injuries whilst Jodie had 30 stitches. We were at the other side of the house at the time and it all happened so quickly we got there too late.

last summer, my boy had a run in with my dads dog, the fight was horrendous, 2, 8 stone Briards going at it hammer and tong is not a pretty sight, It took 3 of us to break it up, both dogs had a few cuts and OH had stitches in his leg, my dad, being too proud to go to hospital got an infection in his hand where he had been bitten so badly!!! Thankfully we were there when one of the kids left the door open, if it had been allowed to go on, for sure, one or both would have ended up dead or in a very bad way :(

I've had two bitches going for it so that one ended up with a broken jaw and several puncture wounds, one above the eye, one in the cheek - does that count? And then two dogs who kicked off - managed to seperate them and one broke his tooth off and it embeded itself in the other ones cheek. It was partly that incident that pushed me into finding out more about canine behaviour...

Caz Wales

I partially agree with you and partially don't.  Where minor scirmishes or displays of dominance occur (not real out and out fighting) I think it best to leave the dogs to sort things out themselves.  Obviously, you can't do this if there is real damage being done to either dog, you have to intervene.

My dominant male can get the other male to drop toys, stop play, give up his bed, move out of his way no problem.

They never have faught over food and eat side by side but if I am preparing food and the younger appears in the kitchen when the dominant one is there the dominant one will lip curl at the younger.  This I won't allow and I do step in.  The kitchen is mine.  The food is mine. All the resources in the home are mine and I send the dominant dog out without a word.  I let him back in after a minute and if he lip curls again - out he goes.  Yes, there is a pack hierarchy between dogs but there are times when they have to defer to the overall pack leader and that's me.

So I don't think it's as cut & dried as leave them to it OR intervene.  I think each situation has to be judged on merit and dealt with accordingly

Ive been following this one....

Definately, i agree with the 'leave dogs to sort out their own order' camp... its the only way it can ever properly work, unless of course you are HAPPY to live with the constant 'tense' atmosphere that occurs when dogs WANT to sort out issues and are not allowed to. That is awful and ive been there, its like living on a knife edge, and just one little thing can set it all off.

I dont think ANYONE is suggesting here that dogs just be allowed to kill one another if they so choose, that is ridiculous and no one in their right mind would do such a thing.........

BUT...... Kerioak brought up a valid point. How many people can actually tell the difference between a 'scrap'. a 'heated debate', 'a semi serious scuffle' and 'all out war'.......

Ive witnessed a variety of different types of spat/fight between dogs, having had the dubious pleasure of walking in an AWFUL park frequented at weekends by people who only ever bring their dog out when its sunny, warm, and they have run out of anything else to do.

Its actually quite interesting to note the various types of fight that can occur, and since i started thinking about it, its AMAZING that so many dog owners do not know the difference, and cannot begin to think HOW incidents occurred, what sparked them off.

ONe frequent one was the 'your going to steal my ball' spat.... dog with ball drops ball, looks at owner for treat, dogwithoutball sneaks up and attempts to steal ball, dogwithball sees, and quickly growls, snaps and picks up the ball again.

Or how about the 'you just invaded my personal space too fast and without warning'..... Border collie bitch, walking along.. big bumbling OES zooooooooms past, brushing against her, she takes a snap at his rear end (somedays successfully, somedays not).

That ones pretty easy n all IF you actually WATCH your dogs.

There is so much going on, ALL the time, and many many people are oblivious to it, they miss the curled lip when one dog 'owns' a crumb under the fridge and the other wants to sniff at it. They dont hear the low grumble when the younger dog bashes the bigger one accidentally, until it happens once too often and the elder dog kicks the younger ones ass all round the house for 2 minutes....

My three are ruled by the bitch. She is bossy, she is not particularly up with 'playing' games, her games are rough and involve biting.... but she wont steal from the boys, not the ball, not food, nothing.
She will guard her food from them, but if they push the issue, they get away with it. Its very unclear where the boundaries lie, TO ME. But to them, i think they understand perfectly well, and knowing my dogs as well as i do, i think i would be incredibly surprised if they EVER had a fight that went beyond 'OMG theres someone at the door i might bite you cos im excited' from dill, or 'my dinner, gerroff' from abby, or 'tired leave me alone' from rocky.

I do intervene on one particular issue...... and that is outdoor games, where Abbys FAVOURITE game is to chase dill, pin him down and not let him up (and bite him if he does get up).

Dill does NOT like this and he hides behind me if he can get to me first, he is ASKING me to help him, and so i do. I wish i could think of a way of getting him to tell abby to Fck Off, but i cant.....

Rocky has no problems with this game and tells her off if she is too silly, adn as a result they have learned to play in a way that they both find fun.

Ive rambled........ errrrrr

Em

Hi theemx,

I hadn't got involved in this thread because I can see good and bad ways of stepping in with my dogs - and I completely agree it takes time, years of practice, and most importantly dedicated observation ;)  Sometimes I've got it right, sometimes wrong but thankfully those occasions where I've erred have not resulted in a major incident

>Ive rambled........ errrrrr<

I think not - I enjoyed it, could relate to it and found it a very clear way of explaining just some of the many subtle variations in our dogs' behaviour that can be so easily misinterpreted by us mere mortals but "the pack" usually has the genuine situation well sussed :P

Regards, Teri :)

A wonderful post from someone who clearly loves and respects her dogs as dogs and, more to the point, is interested in them as individuals! Great stuff.
:)

Couldn't have put it better myself JG.  :)

Very familiar with this one from My Tiula who for years would nver stick up for herself....

'They dont hear the low grumble when the younger dog bashes the bigger one accidentally, until it happens once too often and the elder dog kicks the younger ones ass all round the house for 2 minutes....'

It took the arrival of her Grandaughter was a very bad mannered oik for her to learn, up to that point she just used submission or asking me or her Mum to protect her.

I had an example of it with my oldest (then 12 1/2) and youngest (around 11 -12 months) when pup was playing a mad fast game with freinds border collie which consisted of doing 'tigger' through a field with waist high grass.  The dogs were charging across the path, and at one point she bashed straight into the old gal flooring her. 

I really thought she had hurt ther, but Elka was so indignant before I could help her up she had jumped up and really did exactly what you said, and wasn't Lexi classic meek and apoliogetic about it, teeth cleaning grovelling the lot.  Now these two have always had the loveliest relationship, with oldster asking her to play each monring, but play has to be gentle and respectful.  This old girls is retired Alpha, with true alpha being my middle oen of five, her Grandaughter.

Now the present Alpha treated he returning offspring (Jozi the oik) terribly from an onlookers point of view when she first came back.  she would bare her teeth threaten and refuse point balnck to ahve anything to do with ehr for three days, and it was clear that she would do damage if pushed.  Luckily despiote Jozi's shows of bravado, barking clowning etc she wasn't stupid enough to push it.  On the 4th day she crawled over to her mother on her belly in an act of apeasement, and Kizi gave her a lick and a play bow.  A very brief game ensued which Kizi abruptly ended, and Jozi accepted.

Owing to Jozi's character she has often needed putting in her place over the years, and now accepts her position.  She is not an alpha wanabe (despite seeming that way because she is extra wilful and independent not dominant) doesn't want to be in charge of others just of herself :D

An interesting topic, that I wouldnt really want to advise on without seeing AND knowing the dogs.

A person I know has a lurcher that whilst she wouldnt start anything with a terrier would almost certainly end it, and most probably result in a dead terrier. She is not a dog that I would ever recommend just 'letting get on with it'. On the other hand, I know plenty of dogs that can sort all their differences out with just a grumble and a snap.

A huge amount depends on whether the individual dogs are prepared to back down when 'outgunned' and not go 'in for the kill' if they get the upperhand. Most dogs are fine on both counts, but not all!

I do feel that most 'dog family' scraps are about resource guarding more than pack status. A lot of resource guarding issues dont seem to cause so much ongoing resentment as pure status conflicts (from what I have seen). With resource guarding, sensible management can avoid many issues arising.

I also feel that where status is an issue, they are much less bothered about fighting for second place than first, so I'd advise to make absolutely sure that you are number one in your relationships with your dogs. 

I agree with you about the resource guarding, and of course WE are resources too ;)

Great post Em - but not at stupid o'clock in the morning, unusual for you :D

Lindsay
X

Now I think the last paragraoh you have hit the nail on the head!!!  My a;pha bitch knows and demonstrates that mine is the final word :D 

Well anyone who knows me knows it is hard to get a word in edgewise with me, so what chance have the dogs got :D

pack order and dominance are such subtle things and even when you think you've got it worked out the dogs can surprise you. the Alpha in my pack is my 4 year old bitch - she only has to look at the others and they back down BUT she allows my old lady ( 14years and an ex alpha bitch) to take the food out of her bowl - she just backs right off and allows her to finish her food !. She allows none of the others to do this and in all other respects she rules the roost.

Yvonne

Ok, more rambling...

Just th inking back to a conversation i had with a friend about her dogs, adn how SHE understands them, but her family members dont.

Her dog was panting a lot and displaying signs of stress. Her relatives told her, when she voiced her opinion, that 'all dogs pant, its normal'.... and wouldnt accept any discussion on the topic.

To me, i know what my dogs are telling me, and its snuck up on me, this ability to read their language, its not something ive conciously sat down and tried to do, its just happened naturally.

My housemate has lived with me and my dogs for nearly three years now. He still has no idea, at all.

I can tell, even when im concentrating at the computer, that the bump on my leg from Rockys nose means he needs to go outside. He wont bark for that, ignore it and eventually when he can no longer hold himself, he will pee on the floor (poor lad! it happened ONCE when i was drunk!).

He has a way of licking his lips, drawing them back ever so slightly, and i know that means he is going to be sick shortly and i should let him outside.

I can tell from their barking if they are barking at a person or a dog, if its someone they know or a stranger.

I can tell from the way they walk or run how they are thinking, if they are intent on eating the poodle round the corner, or if its Candy coming down the field with Leela, Dilly-dogs girlfriend.

Abby has taken some learning, but again, the longer ive known her (just coming up for a yaer now) the more i understand and i believe the more she communicates to me. She pricks her ears in a certain way and trembles all over.... means she has seen a CAT that is not her own cat! She grabs the ball and accidentally on purpose drops it, she wants to be chased.

If im on my own with her, she wants ME to chase her, she grrrrrrrrs and bounces and grabs at my sleeves (or my nose if it gets in the way), this is her way of saying 'hell yeah lets have soem FUN', and its the only way she really has at the moment (which is why ill tolerate the biting because i have no kids, i dont walk where there are other people, and she wouldnt do it to them anyway, i seen no reason to change this perhaps 'bad' habit in a ten year old dog!)...
I taught her one thing since she has been there, she finds training quite confusing and scary, but justt his one thing , giving a paw in return for cheese has opened up her lines of communication so much. Now she can ask for my attention, which she never knew she could do before. Ok so now she wallops me in the back of the knees, or in the ear as im doing up my bootlaces, but its worth it for teaching a previously ignored dog, who never REALISED that humans could actually communicate WITH her, to interact iwth me, rather than just exist as an orange lump on the sofa or a hare killing machine in the fields.

Dilly is VERY vocal, he likes to communicate with yowls and grumbles and bizaaaaare noises, and he is very touchy feely as well.... all cuddles and snuggles. He can be a cocky little sod, but when Abby tries to bite him in play, he comes and hides between mummys legs cos she knows not to try it on when he is next to me!

A few weeks ago, i visited a boyfriends house.... they have a dog called Dyson.

He has NO CHARACTER. He does nothing, he doesnt bark, he allowed Dill into his house with no previous introductions, minimal sniffing, no playing, no cuddling, NOTHING.....

He looked confused at dills atempts to play, looked on bewildered as dill tried to steal a dinner off a worktop, didnt understand the bouncing, yipping, play bowing, yowling, or wuffles.

I couldnt understand, and neither could dilly, this dog that did nothing, thought nothing, said nothing.

Boyfriends parents said to me 'oh, we wouldnt put up with THAT behaviour from dyson..... if he behaved like THAT, we would take him back to the rescue...'

I tried to explain all the things Dill was trying to say to Dyson...... blank stares all round.

For some people a dog is just another item you have around the house, like a washing machine or a hoover. It has no emotion, has nothing to communicate and is merely decorative.

I thought Dyson was perhaps just old..... he is 3, a year older than Dill..... makes me really sad to think about him. Ok he lives in a warm house, walked twice a day, rarely left for longer than 4 hours.

But no one ever understands him, no one ever talks to him in a way he can understand, he is completely isolated.

Em

(Lindsay, its not silly o clock no, but ive had about 4 hours sleep and been up since 8..... it might as WELL be silly o clock!)

Theemx, your posts are so entertaining but also spot on ;)

>For some people a dog is just another item you have around the house, like a washing machine or a hoover. It has no emotion, has nothing to communicate and is merely decorative.<

Soooo true! Their subtle ways really are so glaringly obvious when you just understand and observe :) Reading your post has made me realise just how much I understand my dogs and the dynamics that go on, I found myself agreeing and saying "my boy/girl does that". They really are far more intelligent than the average person gives them credit for :)

Em, maybe that's why he's called Dyson............

I do know what you mean, I find it really frustrating too. I heard someone explaining the other day that that think their rescue dog was badly treated because if he wet at night and they told him off in the morning, he would cower in the corner! :rolleyes:

Some people cannot get past the "me human, me clever, me  have feeling" "you dog, dog stoopid, dog have no feeling" way of thinking.
It discusts me just how many people do no research into canine psychology bafore they get a dog and make no effort to understand them.
If more care was taken by people to understand their dogs many shelters would be empty and more families would have loyal, loving and loved four legged brothers, sister and children!!!!

Well said thedark.