Do Labradors really have different character traits because of their colours?  or is this just an old wives tale.

We find in gundog training that there is very little difference between black and yellow. Chocolate on the other hand tend to be a year to 18 months behind, possibly due to the amount of poor breeding and inexperienced breeders breeding specifically for those colours. The perceived wisdom these people have is that if you bred choc to choc you will get choc. Yes you do, but you also restrict the gene pool and if choc's are slow maturing then this will, by doing this, be perpetuated! The fact remains, there has never, in well over 100 years, been a chocolate Field Trials champion in the UK despite a number of people working them! (There has been in the US though.)

As we all know, you can't get out of a puppy what is not present in the sire and dam. This is the problem with line breeding. Line breeding will fix traits but not add anything to the dog. So breeding specific colours has the same effect. If for example you accept that choc's are, by and large slower to mature, then mating choc to choc will go towards fixing that trait. Do it many times over several generations and the trait becomes part of the colour. Looked at like that it all becomes clear!

Many years ago, the late Gwen Broadley of Sandylands fame had three totally separate lines which she developed. One was solid black, no yellow gene at all. One was black with the yellow gene and the third was solid yellow. Although those lines have got diluted now by outside breeders interbreeding within these lines if you know your dogs it is still possible to follow her thinking.

These old breeders are still capable of showing the new breeders a thing or two, or would be if the new breeders knew how to read a pedigree and what's in it, which unfortunately seems a dieing art.

Regards, John

Tis true, chockies do tend to be slower maturing and they IMHO tend to have a more warped sense of humour, they can also be rather stuborn! One of mine id quite a free thinker and often works things out for himself, like opening doors, especially to the kitchen, not sure that this is a particular chockie trait though.

Having said that we dont all want a field trials champion and some of us like a chalenge :D

I believe that there are also a few unusual coat patterns that naturally occour in Labs, one of which is called something like 'hail stone' where the coat has a pattern of small white spots. John can probably confirm or otherwise.

Yes, there are occasional "Odd" colours in Labradors, and if you go back to the formation of the breed it was not that unusual to see two coloured Labs!

Regards, John

Yes it is just an old wives tale, unfortunatly perpetuated by some.
A litter from the same parents can have black and chocolate in it (or even yellow too) and they share the same genes, it is just not sensible to attatch a 'mad or immature' trait to the gene carrying colour.
Amos

I can only speak as I find Amos. It may not be sensible in your eyes to attach a <<'mad or immature' trait to the gene carrying colour.>> but then I have to ask, Why not? Everything about every living creature is carried in the genome and that includes temprament. Working ability is certainly carried in the genes and believe me, enough people have attempted to attain the status of FT Ch with a chocolate Labrador, and all have failed. If you go back 30 years there were almost no chocolate Labs. I think I saw my first one about 35 years ago. 15 years ago when a friend brought one people told her it must be a crossbreed because Labradors "Dont come that colour!" Now the precentage is around 20%, thats how much the numbers have gone up! This has by and large been brought about by foolish breeders mating choc's to choc's. Inter breeding of choc's to other colours is very very low because in the main the people breeding them have little or no ideas of black lines who carry chocolate so they take the easy option. If you mate within a restricten gene pool then you will get whats in that gene pool, not whats within the breed as a whole.

Regards, John

Well John, if you attach that much to a gene which effects the pigment in the hairs in dogs would you do the same in people?and other animals? would you say that black haired people are cleverer than brown haired who must also be immature?? Are brown cats thick? Of course not as it just isnt true. I think you are so biased you cant accept that your arguement just does not hold up

I can accept your theory about reduced gene pool to a point but lets face it with 45,000 labs registered in 2004 it is not exactly a small pool and you seem to think that chocolate is only ever put to chocolate but that is just not true.
I am so fed up of the insinuation that anyone breeding a chocolate lab is an irresponsible breeder who produces scatty dogs.
Amos

>you seem to think that chocolate is only ever put to chocolate but that is just not true.

>I am so fed up of the insinuation that anyone breeding a chocolate lab is an irresponsible breeder who produces scatty dogs.

Amos, you seem to be reading more into these posts than is actually there! Nobody has ever said that chocolate is only ever put to chocolate - reputable breeders who've done their homework certainly don't do it. But the puppy farmer/commercial breeder does it all the time to ensure a steady stream of chocolate pups (of whatever quality) to satisfy the fashion for them. The ones who are interested in the good of the breed, not just lining their own pockets, produce nice ones (but not through choc-to-choc matings) - but sadly they seem to be few and far between.

Amos, the gene that affects pigment in many breeds is inextricably linked with the ability to hear. I don't see why there shouldn't be other linkages too.

Jenegenie,
I think the deafness is associated with white merles and the association with white coat and deafness is to do with embryonic disruption of the tissues which induces white coat disturbs those destined to form part on inner ear. Nothing to do with colour of pigment.
Amos

Amos, the deafness gene is linked to pigmentation (not necessarily coat colour, because you can get very heavily-marked dalmatians who are still deaf) as this article states. The degeneration to the cochlear cells (causing deafness) results from a lack of pigment cells in the stria (structural bands of nerve fibres).

Temperamental characteristics certainly seem to be hereditary - so on what gene are they carried? As for temperamental characteristics in people - you know what they say about the fiery temper that redheads have - and as for blondes ... ;) :D

The reason why coloured spotting on Dals has no relation to deafness is because the spots develop too late.  Dals are born white (except for patching) and by the time the pigment migrates to the stria, the hearing mechanism has passed the critical stage of development.  Patched Dals are less likely to suffer colour related deafness because the pigment is already in place at birth.

There is a lot said about temperament being linked to colour....also red Cockers, chestnut mares etc but MHO is that it is probably due to selecting for one characteristic in a restricted gene pool leading to inadvertently selecting for another.  Something similar to John's views in his first post I think.

Would be interesting to hear if choc labs in mixed colour litters consistently show any different temperament traits to their black or yellow siblings.

Julie

In any litter, the inheritance of traits is going to be in the range of the traits inherited from their ancestors. From that it follows that in a choc to black litter any of the litter could inherit any of the traits. As proof of that I site my Bethany, A yellow result of a black sire and choc bitch. She was hyper, strong willed dog who never really accepted anyone's rule!

Obviously, if you only mated (we'll say) hyper Choc's to laid back blacks, you would get puppies of all traits. If you then removed all hyper dogs from the breeding pool, over enough generations you would slowly modify the behavioural traits, reducing the incident of hyper puppies born.

Looked at the other way, if you persist in mating hyper choc's to hyper choc's then you would gradually push the average resultant puppies towards the hyper end of the spectrum.

All this is nothing more than plain common sense! Yes, I believe that breeding for particular colours has led to problems in several breeds, Cockers are one, we find that eye problems are more prevalent in the very light Golden Retrievers, the list could go on. The message is simple, restrict your gene pool too much and you stand the risk of bring in big problems.

Regards, John

Amos! When was the last time you mated souly on the basis of hair colour!

45000 Labradors in 2004 alone looks on the face of it a large gene pool but look a little deeper. The comparison with the millions of humans does not stand up I'm afraid! Not the least because WE decide who we mate with and with love playing its part neither hair colour nor anything else for that matter comes into it. Even then, you only need to look at places where, for geographical reasons, the gene pool has been isolated for many years and the people do tend to share characteristics!

Now look at the numbers of chocolate Labradors which founded the colour in its modern numbers. As I said, only 30 years ago there were almost nil! Even 15 years ago they were rare enough to raise a comment! Now they are 20% of all Labradors bred! That kind of exponential expansion could only have been achieved by VERY tight breeding and it is that which has done the Chocolate Labrador no favours. Stick your head in the sand if you like, but then you will be doing the breed no favours either!

Regards, John

John
Do you believe that chocolates have different traits because of their colour or do you think it is because of selective breeding? They are two seperate issues.
No one dispute that selective breeding produces traits, how could they it is basic biology.
Are the chocolates from a black to black mating madder than their black siblings??? please just answer that question with a yes or no without all the waffel
Amos

>Are the chocolates from a black to black mating madder than their black siblings???

That's what we'd all like to know! Or even are the pups from a black-to-chocolate mating madder than chocolate-to-chocolate.

The trouble is, if you breed specifically for one characteristic (in this case colour - in another it might be herding ability, for example) you also run the risk of neglecting other ones which eventually disappear. And then that strain has changed forever, unless something drastic is done about it.

<<Are the chocolates from a black to black mating madder than their black siblings??? please just answer that question with a yes or no without all the waffel>>

Just how many times would you like me to answer that Amos! Have I not answered it? As for the waffle, I don't! :( So how about cutting the insults out?

<<Do you believe that chocolates have different traits because of their colour or do you think it is because of selective breeding? They are two seperate issues.>>

How do you make it two separate issues Amos? If you selectively breed dogs with a particular trait do you not then put that trait into the strain/colour?

John

Amos  I would add to the discussion that the 'liver' flat coats that I know tend to be a little more immature and madder than the blacks and the same applies to several other breeds that come with a 'liver' option.

<we find that eye problems are more prevalent in the very light Golden Retrievers,>

This is news to me John, can this be officially verified?

Snomaes

My post read <<we find that eye problems are more prevalent in the very light Golden Retrieve>>

Note the We! I can only quote what I see in the eye testing I organise! I am not present at others.

John You obviously see a lot of working gun dogs. If I wanted to mate my bitch to a black working dog how would I go about finding one with a chocolate gene? I have asked around all over the place locally and most people simply do not know if their dog has black, yellow or chocolate. Trial and error could take a lifetime and still not work :D

Finding a black working line which contains a chocolate gene is like looking for a needle in a haystack Bluebell, and quite frankly I don't know one! I can think of several show lines but by and large, as you know, black is the predominate colour in the field and even good working yellows are hard to come by at the moment. Almost no one DNA colour tests in working lines because by and large it is the dog's ability which makes it's offspring desirable. So it follows that if the bulk are black then mated to black, what ever genes are carried, the dominant black gene will come out.

Sorry, not a lot of help to you I'm afraid.

Regards, John

No problem John, just a needle that I have been looking for for some time! Mind there is one guy round here who wants to breed a FTC to my bitch and firmly believes that they will produce at least 50% chocolate 'because they will have a combination of both sets of genes :( 

Still no yes or no answer then John.
I think that you have been far more insulting to others than I ever have.
Again we will agree to differ on this one then and as for liver flatcoats being more immature then doesnt that blow your 'selectvley bred for madness arguement' out the window or are flatcoats bred for colour only too.
Amos

I give up with you Amos! OK What I see is not really happening.

See! I'm now agreeing with you! I've given my view to the original poster and am not interested in anything further you have to say on the matter.

Amos, if it's of any interest to you, liver spotted dalmatians tend to be scattier than black spotted ones.

Hi guys,

I swore that I wouldn't join in on this one but here's my view for what its worth :)
Many chocolate labs are lovely dogs, bred by good, responsible breeders who tend to breed chocolate to black carrying chocolate as this keeps the colour nice and dark. I see a really good cross section of the doggy community at my dog club and yes, there has definitely been a trend to choccy labs in the last few years.  However, nearly all of them have been bought by people that would agree that they bought them solely on their colour.  Fine, I did the same with my labs, buying pups that came from really good working lines.
BUT, when you ask these people about the breeders that they got their pups from, a large number have said that 1) Their breeder specialised in this colour and only had breeding stock in this colour and 2) They paid a lot more because the chocolate was more popular!
We have at present a lovely chocolate lab working in Working Trials who has just started competing, but his owner has said that he is a full year behind in mental developement. Before I get flamed for this, I'm not saying he's thick or anything, just needs a bit more time and patience to 'find himself' :)
Any irresponsible breeder who wants to breed choccys only has to put a choccy bitch to a choccy dog and they'll get all choccy.  Now if those particular dogs are very laid back and then their offspring are bred to chocs that are also very laid back, it stands to reason that over time, that particular trait in that line of dogs will produce exceptionally laid back chocolate labs!
If they mix their breeding with black to make to chocolate colour richer, they run the risk of having blacks and chocks in the litter and if they're only breeding for money then thats not what they want!
Its all very well saying that some lab people are a bit biased on colour, but if you're talking about purely working stock, John is absolutely correct, (as ever!)no-one to this day has taken a chocolate up to FT.champion, the percentage of working chocolates to working yellows or blacks is tiny, and if the same lines of working gundogs are bred from generation after generation, I can't see a day soon that there will be.
As I say, I know some very nice choccy labs, I also know some not very nice ones with behaviour problems because the breeders bred for colour rather than temperament. All I would suggest to anyone wanting a choccy lab is to do your homework.!
That just my view and if anyone doesn't agree with it, thats fine, life's too short to get in a tizz about things.

Be nice to each other, you learn a lot more!
Cheers guys, rant over
Ali :)

Opinion and experience of one dog here and there is all very well but it is not science is it? john you quote your one dog as proof, how scientific is that?
I hear this chocolates are mad thing quoted by people who consider themselves expert and I have yet to hear any real science to back it up. I have always agreed that the selective breeding thing will cause traits and agree that this will have happened in chocolate labs because they are popular at the moment but I really disagree that this is related directly to pigmentation.
Still no yes or no to my simple question.
Amos

"Still no yes or no to my simple question"    - Amos

Maybe because your simple question just CANNOT have simple answer Amos!!

You and John go over this point, time after time, after time!!!  It's good to see that this point is continually raised - but why can't you BOTH just put forward your own points of view without both insisting that the other is wrong????

Or is it a Man thing :D :D D:

This is a really interesting argument, and I don't want you two getting hurt :D :D

Margot

Amos, where does John refer to only one dog? I've read and re-read his posts and I can't find it. Also, he's never said that chocolates are 'mad'. What he has said is that they seem to be slower to mature than the other colours - about a year to 18 months behind. That does not equate to being 'mad'.

Where did anyone mention pigmentation? The original question asked was a simple one.

<<Do Labradors really have different character traits because of their colours?  or is this just an old wives tale.>>

I answered it "Yes they do".

If you do not agree with that then that is your right.

Simple as that!  

Well put Ali I know loads of chockies and they do tend to be slower to grow up, no matter what anyone says. My field trials friends are constaintly taking the mick because they think it is my training, but as I have found to my cost push them too hard too soon and they just revert straight back to puppy! Still hopefully if I can find the time to put in some serious training I will have my bitch ready to work for next season, when she will be 2 3/4, as you say at least a year later than her black pals. It is also IMO a good idea to take it slowly as there is a really high incidence of hip problems in them and I believe that a lot of excercise early in life may make this worse.

Amos the liver flat coats have the same problem. A small breeding pool and increased value (in some peoples eyes anyway). It may not be proven that there is a direct link between coat colour and any of these 'vices' BUT it is the most obvious way to see something about the breeding, so it is the indicator that people use. BTW if you ask any vet with experience of  chockies, they will tell you that there is a very high percentage that have serious hip problems, again may not be directly linked to coat colour, but associated with the methods of breeding.

It is a fact John, that colour is due to pigmentation. The shape and colour of those granules give the hair its colour so colour and pigmentation  can not be seperated. It seems that according to you the shape of a pigmentation granule in a hair effects maturity or what ever else chocolate labs are accused of being. Seems now that their hip joints too!!!
Margot dont worry about us getting hurt I am quite capeable of having a debate without any adverse side effects ( maybe even enjoy it!) and I dont expect john is too sensitive either.
Jeangenie
Genegeanie I am not sure if the italics will work but this is what John stated in one of his posts
i As proof of that I site my Bethany, A yellow result of a black sire and choc bitch. She was hyper, strong willed dog who never really accepted anyone's /i

Amos

I remind you of the question Amos.

<<Do Labradors really have different character traits because of their colours?  or is this just an old wives tale.>>

No one has said that colour causes it. Obviously it does not! What does cause it is, as I have said so many times is, Breeding from a restricted gene pool which carries that trait! I do not know how to put it any simpler than that.

John

I'm convinced that there is nothing in the liver gene that would make a labrador inherently less able than either a black or yellow. In all of the other gundog breeds where that colour is available, liver dogs compete on equal terms.

The main difference (between chocolate vs black/yellow) is in the extent to which the pedigree contains decent working/trialling breeding. My advice to anyone with a working chocolate bitch, would be mate it to the very best working dog available (which will probably be black). The resulting litter are likely to be black but carry a chocolate gene. If sufficient owners of chocolate bitches took this approach then within a short time it would be fairly straightforward to find decent 'chocolate carrying' stud dogs, and any chocolate pups from future generations would have a training aptitude the equal of black & yellows.

My prediction for the first chocolate field trial champion, would be one that 'pops up' from the breeding of two dogs (probably black) that just happen to carry a chocolate gene from matings from earlier generations.

John,
Are you now saying that you do not think colour is responsible? that is what I have been saying all along !!!
I have never disputed the selective breeding issue.
Was it not you who said in an earlier post that you thought it likely that a mad or immature trait could be attatched to the gene carrying colour??? that is what I dispute.
I believe the gene carring colour does just that and is not responsible for immaturity, hip developement etc. etc.
Amos

I give up! :(

All I tried to do was to answer the question as it was printed. What really gets up my nose is people twisting my words and reading things into it. I am not interested in playing stupid games Amos. I say what I see. That is all. As I said before, take it or leave it. I have no further interest in anything you might say.

Is that a clear enought answer for you? If not TOUGH!

The question was whether the different coloured labs have different characteristics. It seems that yes, they do - the chocolate ones are slower developers. Whether that's carried on the colour gene or any other is irrelevant.

Ok I will take it that you all agree with me now so that suits me.
Shall we call it an end to this topic
Amos

Take whatever suits you Amos.

I think I've got the general idea.  (didn't really want to cause any bad feelings though!)

Thanks for all your thoughts

If its of any interest i've recently been on an american website where they breed silver labs(same colouring as weimerainers) and apparently they are the calmest and most gentle of all the different coloured labs. This is NOT my personal opinion it is just what i have read.