Just want some general concensus of opinion on this really. I have just taken on a rescue from Battersea. He is an 8 month old BC who is on his 6th home, if you include the kennels and both foster homes. (Which I'm sure he does!) I was warned about his sep. anx. before I got him and feel I can deal with it. However, a discussion at agility sparked up the other evening about how best to treat it. Some said to let him get on with it as he is not distructive. Others said to work on it actively, while others said to let him get rid of the fear in his own time and aviod leaving him to panic at all.

What do you all think?

Hi ClaireH,  I have recently been reading the Dog Listener books by Jan Fennell and I would recommend them as they teach you to look at things from the dog's viewpoint, rather than assuming they have human feelings and understanding.  She bases her ideas on how wolf packs behave as she feels domestic dogs work on very much the same principles.  Try getting the books from your library first of all and see what you think.  I certainly don't agree that you should ignore this behaviour, or hope it will go away or change your lifestyle to avoid it.  Your dog needs to have this stress removed from his life.

Your poor dog hasn't had a good start in life has he but I hope you and he will work things out and both have a happy future together.  Good luck.

Hi claire, we have a young rescue too. Ive had him a month and his anxiety at the start was terrible to see. Like your dog mine wasnt destructive, he just panicked if left alone. From the start I didnt let him trail me round the house - getting to the toilet alone is a good start, dont return until hes quiet even if you have to lob something soft at the door to startle him quiet for a second so you can get out. From there you can leave him in a room (use a baby gate so he can see you but not join you) and always return before he creates and up it a little each time, but never so much he gets stressed. " Your Dog " has an excellent article on the topic this month. FWW our boy now realises we go and come back, but he cannot bear to be shut in even with someone with him yet.HOwever as I type this hes in another room from me, quite settled with his Bonio so it does work with patience.

There are two schools of thought about whether domestic dog behaviour can be compared to wolf behaviour.
:)

Enlighten me!

To begin with, the domestic dog has been greatly neotonised over the thousands of years it's been living with Man, so if you're comparing its behaviour to that of wild wolves, you must compare it to cubs, not adults. Adult wolves are not renowned for living in harmony with other species!

Several of the basic theories behind the 'training methods' are also flawed. The idea that dominant wolves eat first and the rest wait their turn has been shown to be wrong in very many cases - in fact very often cubs are allowed to eat, if not first, then alongside the others, so the idea that 'the owner must eat a biscuit in front of the dog before it's given its food' can be discarded.

The alpha wolf (either dog or bitch) doesn't always physically lead the way, so the 'owner must always go through doorways first' is also based on flawed theory. Besides - it's dangerous going down steps with the dog behind you - you might get knocked over! Also, if it were true that the 'dominant' pack member leads the way, that automatically makes Guide Dogs assume control of their blind person - which they're clearly not!

Very few dogs are actually 'dominant' - it's generally reckoned to be about 1% - most of those which people say are 'dominant' are actually just badly trained! It's the same with people - not everyone seriously wants to be President! If a child refuses to do what is asked of it, you don't say it's a dominant child!

She's right that it's wrong to expect dogs to think the same way as humans do - they have no idea of 'right' and 'wrong', for example, but they're not wolves, either!

Any help?
:)

Enlightening, which is what I asked for - doesn't mean I have to agree!!

Absolutely! Food for thought, though! ;)

Don't want to hijack this topic so won't go into the reasons I don't agree, but it's always interesting to get another viewpoint so thanks for that Jeangenie.

Flawed 'science' never produces a sensible conclusion.
:)

Hi Claire

My Rescue X breed had terrible Sep Anxiety probably due to the fact she had been dumped in the country side & literally on the run for 3 months. I was lucky in that I could take her everywhere in my van/car along with my other dogs

In the van she was fine as my other dogs transmitted a chilled out attitude to me getting in & out of the van, however in the house she would follow me everywhere & scratch & cry if I closed a door between us. So I worked on a stay with her & also used T Touch for the first time to relax her beforehand

I got her into a routine of a special food toy(the good old food stuffed kong)that she only got went I was going to leave her & started to train her that I gave her the toy & left her for a few seconds & then minutes etc I couldn't crate her as she panicked when xrated in the house(part of her life baggage I could never know) I didn't take long for her to realise that I would always come back & that being left meant a tasty treat

I hold very little respect for anything Jan F writes or preaches & most of "her"methods have been stolen from dog trainers A better book that hers is I think John Fisher's Why Does My Dog or Gwen Bailey's Rescue Dog

Hi Moonmaiden,

I can only speak from my own experiences and that is that I have found Jan's books very helpful.  As for your claim that she has stolen her ideas, surely there are only a certain number of ways dog training can be approached so all trainers must base their ideas on their own and other people's experiences - this doesn't mean they are stolen.  I would never dismiss anyone's training books as whatever works for the individual dog owner is the right one for them.

It is no claim she has stolen ideas if it was only a claim why was I shown how to titbit train 40 years ago when she only iinvented it in the last few years ? Some of "her"methods can be found almost verbatam in books written long before Ms Fennell decided to use her degrree to start a dog behaviour business

She started giving advice on the local radio only she didn't actually give any . She replied with Ah I will need to talk to you more  off air & then billed the callers for her"free"advice follow up. Not hearsay as the presenter of the program she was on told me & showed me the reprimand she was given re charging people for her services when even the phone calls were paid for by them & she agreed to give the advice for free & since then she has only done guest  appearances & no call ins

She claims to have invented titbit training for one thing & gives all her"patients"cheese(all the dobes I know have a bad reaction to sheese yet she on air told a dobe owner to do this & the dog ended up at the vets), odd that only she thought of this when I was advised to try it nearly 40 years ago(nit with cheese tho). She has no new ideas & her methods are based on her degree in human pyschology & she claims to be the canine equivalent of Monty Roberts which is why you should never enroach into your dogs personal space by handling them whilst training & then appeared at crufts in the GSD breed classes & is very hands on in her methods! She definitely did not follow her own advice. She is the latest in a long line of "new"behaviourizts. She writes alot about her successes but rnever mentions her failures. For example on the TV program a stables owner inherited a dog that had always been on a running line & was very dog aggressive. Her solution ? to feed the new puppy in front of the inherited dog at the same time he was being fed Result the inherited dog was even more aggressive that ever-she made no attempt to retrain the inherited dog & ended up telling the stables owner this might take a while ! She never even approached or handled the inherited dog. If I had had any faith in her before this would have shown that she does not know how to handle aggressive dogs at all & would have undermined any confidence I had in her

JG has given several ecamples of where "her"methods & theories are wrong.

I train all my dogs off lead to do heelwork did I invent it ? Nope was shown by a trainer many years ago when I trained my first dog for someone else that had been to a dog breaker & was terrified of leads & collars & a policeman(not a police dog handler)showed me how to build up a relationship with any dog.

There are better books as I said especially when dealing with Rescue Dogs written by people with hands on experience with many mnay dogs & non of them claim to have invented any techniques or methods

BTW at our local cheap book shop all her books are on offer for around a fiver each so if anyone is interested its worth shopping aroind to save a lot of money

Edited to add I read her book as a friend was given one as a gift by a relative & after reading it the book was donated to a charity shop

Hi Moonmaiden,  I would suggest Claire reads all the suggested books (maybe gets them out of the library first) and makes up her own mind, as I would.  As an experienced dog owner (as I'm sure Claire is) I wouldn't accept any training book 100% but adjust the ideas to suit myself and my dogs.  I haven't seen any claims in Jan's books that she invented certain methods of training, ie titbit or off lead, as you say these have been around for a very long time.  As for the other incidences you mention, I haven't seen them so can't comment.  You obviously have a very low opinion of this author and are entitled to your opinion but let other people make up their own minds.

Jan Fennell advocates the use of leads in heelwork training not off lead & when asked how to make a dog heel she used a lead & the jerk/tug message

You have obviously never heard her explain how she developed the Amichien(french for friend dog)bonding & that no one had previously used her techniquies including titbits

I'm all for gleaning training methods from differing sources but when those sources are flawed by the use of human psychology applied to dogs & owners told NOT to touch their dogs in traing to sit or simply cuddling it concerns me. She has a theory that dogs turn away from being touch is normal & even demonstrated it on TV with one of her many dogs. Funny when I tried the same thing with several dogs they did just the opposite & lapped up the attention & one my late Brett actually rolled on to his back & laid on my lap like a puppy & he was an adult BC

Hi Moonmaiden,  This is my last response on the subject as I feel we are hijacking this thread and not helping Claire which is the whole point of her post.  I am beginning to wonder if you have actually read Jan's books at all because I am currently reading The Practical Dog Listener and there are clear instructions to heel train off lead and she specifically says a lead should not be used to jerk dogs around.  Neither have I ever read anything about not touching your dogs .  I can't believe ANYONE could claim that titbit training had never been used for dogs.

Sorry, hit post there before I had finished!  There are several pictures of Jan hugging her dogs too.  Look, we're obviously not going to agree on this subject so lets agree to disagree shall we?

Hi Annie, first of all thanks for your reply, second of all, I agree with the others about this 'dog listener' woman. She does spout rubbish and I would always do the opposite of anything she said, simply on the theory that it is almost certainly wrong!

My last rescue dog had sep. anx. too and I dealt with that ok, although he was my first dog, and it took a year. I would like to speed things up with this little lad. However, I have spoken to his foster carer several times since Friday evening when he came home with us, and she said she could not even shut the door on him without him wetting and messing himself. I can now leave him for up to half and hour downstairs with a smokey bone and other two collies and he's fine, so I must be doing something right.

I really just wanted to know different ways others had dealt with similar problems, not start a huge debate! Thanks everyone for your thought on the matter.

Claire

Hi Claire,  That's fine, you've obviously made up your own mind and I'm happy with that.  I still think I have found Jan's ideas useful so I wouldn't say it was rubbish, but each to his or her own!  You and the others probably have training ideas I wouldn't agree with either but if they work for you and your dogs, that's great.  That's the point I was trying to make really. 

I'm really glad to hear you're making good progress with your dog and he sounds a very lucky chap to have found you.  Hope everything continues to go well.