Just wondering if anyone knows where the law stands or what rights someone has to use lurchers for 'rabbiting' in a farmers field if the farmer is aware but chooses not to do anything?  Now, the dogs/people in question also killed a badger as the dog attacked it and of course the badger retaliated, thus resulting in the badger being killed by the owners in order to help their dog!  As I am not sure what can be done about this I have kept fairly quiet about the situation but of course if I can do something (anonymously) I will.

Should they have a gaming/hunting license or something along those lines?

Is it against the law to hunt rabbits with dogs?  My cats go out and catch them but I do not deliberately take them out to do so and hate it when they do!

I know badgers are a protected animal so am clear on that!

Any advice would be appreciated!   I have all the fun where I live :)

OH BTW if anyone remembers me posting a topic about telling friends what you think (Springer's kept in kennels not walked etc) the owners have walked the dogs each day so far for an hour.....hopefully it will last......not that our friendship seems to have :(

No, rabbits can be legally hunted using dogs I believe.

Thought as much, okey dokey I shall stop being a nosey neighbour now...he he :)

I believe rabbitting is exempt from the hunting bill, as is ratting.

Yes apparently Rabbits are "different" to Hares!!
Dawn.

And rabbits lives are worth less than hares... Interesting logic there....

Rabbits are classified as vermin, whilst hares are not!

Living where we do, there are some vast warrens of rabbits, and you do realise just how much damage they can do to crops, when one field has been stripped of winter wheat by about 15 ft into the field in one area.

Aren't foxes classed as vermin?

I guess its not so much the rabbits that bother me as they can be pests, and my cats do help to keep the population down as they are too small to kill big adult rabbits but both catch a baby a day in the summer, but Badgers on the other hand......if they are taking the dogs out to purely catch rabbits at 2am, and the dog turns on virtually anything including strong aggressive badgers would you not give it a miss as its illegal to kill badgers and you could be putting your dog in a situation maybe where you would not be so lucky the next time..... not being able to get the badger off your small lurcher?? Imagine the damage it could do or even worse it could kill!

My rotts try and chase rabbits up the fields but are far too slow, well my boy is fairly quick but I am sure he just follows Mum chasing her and not the rabbit!  Even when they did come across one by accident they wagged their tails and not try and do anything!  But then a grey hound, whippet or lurcher has it in its nature to chase, catch and sometimes eat bunnies hey!

Have a read of this

I guess they could say they killed it as an act of mercy (see the exceptions bit?). This is exactly what will be difficult to prove in the Hunting with Dogs Bill I think...

I think a Badger would run back down its sett rather than face a dog if it had a choice, they don't venture that far from their setts either.  Rabbits tend to be in open fields much more, would give any dog a MUCH increased chance of catching one.
Dawn.

Rabbits, Hares, Foxes, Badgers, Rats - does anyone know who was responsible for deciding what is vermin and what isn't ?  Was their Maker consulted I wonder ?.......

In my experience if folk are running lurchers at 2am this time of year its a bit suspect :) (unless there is a legit reason & they work funny hours or something). It is perfectly practical to go lamping from about 7pm onwards this time of year. You say the farmer is aware....but of what? The rabbit population or the lamping? It would be illegal to lamp without the land owners permission....even vermin :) However if he has give permission then they are doing nothing wrong.

i suppose there has to be a line drawn some where cats regularly catch and kill mice and birds my dogs chase rabbits and foxes but never catch them ... but running dogs at 2 am sounds a bit sus

Basically the Farmer knows that he goes lamping at night but just does not say anything, even though he does not have crops in these particular fields as it's for cows in the summer and is empty at present.  I had asked the same question, why does he need to go over at 2am, why not earlier and I also believe that if the dog was pulled from the Badger that it would have run off.....basically if I hear of it again I shall contact someone, the RSPCA or the relevant protection association.  I feel that the situation could easily have been avoided as I have never come across a badger, even walking my dogs at midnight!  Thanks for all your info though as I was unsure about the lamping situation.

Are you really saying you could pull a dog off a Badger??  You can be severely bitten by your own dog stopping fights between them, god help you if you intervene with a Badger.  I agree with you, if you suspect Badger baiting, DO report it.  Re the time, i.e 2am, Bunnies are VERY active at this time, you stand a good chance of catching more during the night.
Dawn.

Fair enough it may be difficult but they managed to do it anyway and then proceeded to kick the badger to death once they had separated them, I have experienced a few dog fights unfortunately and I agree its dangerous to get involved but seeing as they did I do not know why they were malicious and proceeded to kill the badger when it would more than likely have ran off - and they laughed about it!

Also I do not really understand the fascination with lamping but then I am against fox hunting too (a subject I do not wish to debate about) but seeing as rabbits are out pretty much as soon as it gets dark I don't know why you would need to go when it would involve other wildlife being out and therefore put them at risk! 
Plus he apparently used to eat the rabbits but he simply kills and leaves them now - I am sure Hugh  Fearnley-Whittingstall (cook on the wild side lol!) would be disappointed to hear that!

I will leave this for now and if I hear about them coming across badgers again I will report it but with regards to lamping I shall keep my opinions to myself, each to their own so long as it does not involve being illegal!

I did come across a badge oje morning walking my dogs, but luckily it was approaching a stile and I had leashed them in order to check that all was clear of stock in the next field.  Must say the dogs were very interested, btu Brodk just ambled off.

I would think the Badger incident most suspect.

The rabbits are perfectly legal, if a little odd at that time of night. The Badger is illegal but you would I think have to prove that they set out with intent to kill it, where as they would claim it was an accident! I have to say that there is quite a lot of illegal hare coursing goes on round here and the Police will do nothing about it even if you give them registration numbers etc. So Im afraid Im not very hopeful. 

2.a.m. is a very good time for going out rabbiting, as the rabbits have wandered away from their holes so more chance of catching 'em...

Farmers are very keen to have rabbits removed from cow fields due to the dangers of cows breaking legs falling in rabbit holes...

The badger situation I find a bit strange really 'cos when you are out lamping the dog is only 'slipped' when a rabbit is in the beam... if I spot a badger while lamping I'll call my dog back to me & get away from it....

Geoff

hi i think all hunting should be banned,killing a poor defencless animall for pleasure is sick,i have a house rabbit and hes cool.to think people can harm them. im sure there is some sort of law out against killing badgers tho,or atleast ther should be!

What about when it is not for pleasure?  Some animals need controlling not least for their own good.  If the balance of preditors is not right they can multiply to the point where food is short and consequently suffer, imagine what your bunny would feel like if his dinner got smaller and smaller every day :(

hi i think all hunting should be banned,killing a poor defencless animall for pleasure

Hunting is done for a purpose not just for pleasure, those poor defenceless animals can cause a lot of damage amongst other things. When populations of rabbits get to largefor example, they have to be controlled, one way is by hunting.

i have a house rabbit and hes cool

House rabbits are cool but they're cousins out in the field eat crops causing financial loss to farmers and they can cause farm animals injury, when a cow or what ever farm animal or horse happens by puts a foot down a rabbit hole the resulting injury can lead to the loss of a valuable animal.

If you had a squirrel that kept  eating its way in to your house making a new hole every time you repaired the last one, and chewing through the electrical cables causing power cuts and damage to your property, would you allow it to continue because it was a poor defencless animal, probably not, so whats unreasonable about a farmer allowing people to hunt rabbits that cause damage and financial loss to his property.

If rabbits lived in towns as they do in the country side I'm pretty sure  there'd be a few gardeners actively taking up lamping at night on their pretty lawns.

The Rabbit population is now up to above it's 1950's pre Mixematosis levels. The Deer population is at an all time high! The government, aware of the situation, has relaxed certain restrictions on shooting deer and is extending the season slightly for certain specie.

Yes, I love all wildlife but we must be aware of the sustainable numbers. The alternative is to allow unrestricted breeding which will lead to sickly herds and excessive damage to crops and trees.

Regards, John

yeh fair enough sometimes if the population does get out of hand then ther isnt much option.its wen they do it for fun i dont agree with,wich is quite often the case!

Doesn't make any difference to the rabbit though does it ;) all that matters is it is done humanely.

>its wen they do it for fun i dont agree with,wich is quite often the case!

so it's not about what you percieve of being cruel, it's when people have fun, that's what you find difficult, is it?  So if I hated going out shooting or ferreting, I would be ok, in your eyes?

Helen

That seems to be the main objection of many people, Helen.

no ,no huntings acceptible in my eyes.but as its been pointed out to me sometimes wen thers over population and there taking over some farmers choose to sort the problem them selves.its wen you see people going out hunting for the buzz.and obviosly if people didnt enjoy it then they woulnt go out killing ferrets in the first place,would they.i havent posted on here to upset anyone,but thats just my oppinion!

Killing ferrets? No, you use ferrets to kill rabbits ...

You actually use the ferrets to bolt the rabbits either into nets, to dogs or to guns.  You don't want the ferret to kill the rabbit as that results in lots of digging, which isn't very pleasant, especially when the ground is hard :-D

It does seem that it's the fact that people ENJOY it that gets to some people.

Did anyone watch that programme on BBC3 the other night.  A hairdresser went along to a hunt as a follower and then as a hunt sab.  She then had to decide whether which side she was on.  She decided she was with the hunters.  She didn't see a kill and I'm not sure if she would change her mind or not if she did, but she found it thrilling to go out and do what she did.  The majority of people don't see the kill and still enjoy themselves.

Helen

Then you should arm yourself with the facts before having an opinion - otherwise it is simply misinformed, You don't hunt ferrets - you use them to hunt rats and rabbits along with dogs. But not mice - cos that would be illegal :rolleyes:

Going off on a small tangent here but do you class fishing as unacceptable too? I am pretty certain that most fisherman go out and do it because they enjoy it. I know lots of fisherman catch the fish and put it back but where do you draw the line? I mean is it really fair to put a fish through the stress of being caught and then having the hook removed before putting it back?
I'm not anti-hunting in anyway, infact I enjoyed a good few hunts when I was younger, and have shot the odd bunny or two and caught a fair few fish when I lived on the farm, I just wanted tommielfc's view on this as their opinion states that "no hunting is acceptable"

Alli

Edited to say sorry I quoted the wrong person, it has now been fixed :D

I dont know about anyone else but I shoot and what I shoot I eat or the dogs eat, how is that different from eating a 'farmed' animal? If anything I would say it is less cruel as it has had the chance to live a natural life in the wild and has no stress of being transported to an abatoir.  I take pleasure in the field craft needed to obtain a good bag of clean kills.

Incidentally, in the present epidemic of T.B. in cattle in the Worcester area , badgers have positively been incriminated as carriers, and I believe have been/are to be gassed by the Ministry employees.

One law for us, another for them.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I think im gonna go around with a miserable face on from now on, whenever im doing ANYTHING i enjoy.... just in case it gets banned!

Pest control is a job that has to be done, FFS are we not allowed to take pleasure in a job well done? I must presume you do not enjoy your work, and are simply used to moping about all day never taking any pleasure in doing something properly, effeciently, and doing it well.

2am is a great time to go rabbiting, if you are lamping for them. I would also choose this time to AVOID badgers who are usually more active at dusk and dawn, imo.

That said, anyone setting LURCHERS on a BADGER is probably up to no good, there again, its as likely to be an accident as not, because a LURCHER or any sighthound is NOT the dog for that 'job'..... IF it were legal to flush badgers from setts with dogs, it would be terriers. Its not so it shouldnt happen, but it does.

Whilst im on the subject, id like to point something out. Badger BAITING, is a very very different thing to sending a terrier down to flush a badger out/hold it in whilst its dug to.

Yes, both are illegal and have been for a long time. But know your facts, someone DIGGING badgers is probably doing so because they have been asked to do so by the landowner, despite it being illegal.
Badger BAITERS are doing so to provide not only a sick form of entertainment, but also raise a lot of money betting on whose dog finishes the badger off, THESE people are very dangerous, where there is a lot of money and a heavy prison sentence at stake, there will be trouble so report, but STAY SAFE!

Em

I think I started something I should not have here :) - trouble is there are always going to be various opinions on hunting.....what ever animal may be involved.  I do not have a problem with the person lamping as I agree they keep pests down and as I previously said my cats regularly catch rabbits (and eat them) and I have been thanked by the farmers for them doing so - as I said I just have a problem with a badger been killed; if there was no other way around it then fine but I do not feel this was the case as he was laughing whilst he was telling people!  Don't get me wrong if I went up the field with my two and they happened to have a set too with a badger I of course would do what ever it takes to help them, however I feel I have enough control over my dogs to stop them chasing or attacking a badger and I feel that is also an issue here - the lurcher attacks any moving animal apart from the dogs it knows - I therefore have to try and keep my cats in at night incase they are not fortunate enough to escape the nutty dog! 

I would like to conclude by saying that I do not have an issue with people enjoying catching animals to keep pests down (I would love to be able to enjoy my work) and I do not have a problem with dogs being used for this either but I do have a problem when people deliberately set out to rip apart an innocent protected animal - or do nothing about it when the situation does arise.

It could well have been a one off......well I hope so anyway!

Thanks for all your comments; it's been an interesting thread ;)

everyone is entitled to there own opinion,i dont agree with it alot of people do .lets just leave it at that! i didnt come on here to start an argument.:.(

I agree with your comments about the badger, whatever one's views on hunting with dogs, the badger should not have been killed in this situation. It sounds as if it was nothing short of baiting :(

Take care,
Lindsay
X

I was hoping you could help me out on some information please. What do you think of a whippet x irish terrier lurcher for rabbiting?. I am keen in getting a lurcher that is not too big, but fast, all weather coat, obediant, definately quick enough for a rabbit.

I don't hear of the whippet crossing with the irish but i really like the idea. Where could i possibly find a dog of this mix and what do you think of them.

Dont ever get in the way of a Badger, when it is out and about at night, as a friend of mine did, coming in late at night, there was a badger in his drive,. He tried to walk past it , but it ran and chased him, he has never moved so fast in his life. :D

jackie

not being funny but why would you want a dog and then have it to killl i cannot see the sence in that are you going to eat the poor thing or is it just for pure sport

Yes, either the owner eats/sells the rabbit (after all, they were introduced into the country, by the Romans, as food animals) or the dogs do.
:)

jenifer, we take our hounds out rabbiting 2 or 3 evenings a week. many reasons including food for the ferrets, great sport for the hounds and vermin control for our (and neighbouring farmers) land. Hope that helps explain it. :)

Eight rabbits are said to eat the same amount in one day as a sheep.  If you are trying to provide enough food for a flock of sheep you could well do without 200 rabbits in the field helping themselves on a daily basis.  This is why farmers like to keep rabbit numbers down.  Rabbits are a good source of meat for stews, casseroles, pies as well as food for animals and birds.  We have working spaniels and regularly receive requests to help keep rabbit numbers down.  It keeps them busy in between pheasant seasons.  It is very important that people use what they kill, health rabbits (many aren't) can all be used.  We have a friend with a hawk who is always happy to have what we can't eat.

My brother used to go hare/rabbit corsing. He had to have farmers authority to go on his land. He did this for a number of years. I was totally against this as Im an animal lover in any form. His dogs were lovely and were not to blame, they were trained.
He lost 3 of his dogs to this SPORT. 1 ran into an oncoming train while on the chase, another had a massive heart attack while on the chase. The thing that made him stop was when a farmer came up to them called over 3 of the dogs(his and friends) and shot the trusting dogs point blank in the heads.
They should not have been on the farmers land we all know that but the dogs didnt know this.
They went to court and becuase they were on his land there was nothing that could be done. My brother was distraught over this and I dont think he's over it now even about 10 years on.
A hard lesson well learned.

yes sharonb, it would be much kinder to snare them, shoot them (hopefully kill & not wound), gas them & give them myxymatosis (sp). All much nicer methods than a straight run & instant kill. :(

The thing that made him stop was when a farmer came up to them called over 3 of the dogs(his and friends) and shot the trusting dogs point blank in the heads.

My understanding of farmers shooting dogs was that it can only be done when the farmer actually catches the dog in the act of worrying live stock, and not for any other offence the dog may have committed such as trespass, a local farmer told me that farmers would be very careful how they used their shotguns, any misuse of their guns could result in the withdrawl of their license, a serious implication for most famers.

Can any one clarify this point.

I believe that, technically, wild animals belong (inasmuch as they belong to anyone) to the person whose land they're on. Therefore someone coursing rabbits needs permission from the landowner or they're technically hunting his livestock.

Could be wrong though! :)

Had a chat today with the local beat bobby, he's not 100% sure but is going to check whether a farmer would be acting with in the law shooting a dog "worrying " rabbits for example, especially if there were no domestic live stock nearby, in his view though a farmer that called a dog over to him and shot it would be acting out side the law as the dog would be technically not worrying livestock, the bobby interprets the law to mean a farmer can shoot a dog to prevent further worrying to domestic live stock and financial loss, it would be difficult to prove financial loss if wild animals were taken unless the farmer relied on them for an income.

I must stress that though that it is only a locals bobby's view and not based on his experiance in any way.