hi everyone, i've been looking for a bullmastiff puppy for ages, which i would like to show.  i have finally put a deposit on a healthy female puppy who is goregous. The problem is all this LINE BREEDING has got me confused and concerned.  i did look at the papers and seen well known breeders names who show.  So if someone could be so kind to tell me what your looking for when you look at the pappers? do the dogs who have mated(sire and dam of litter)  have to have some kind of connection along the way?  I always thought you stayed away from inbred dogs

When going into a new breed it's probably important to choose a breeder with a proven track record of breeding quality successful dogs. Researching and observation over an extended period of time will enable you to trust the breeders decisions in choosing which animals to breed together. As a novice, reading a list of dogs names is unlikely to mean much until you have had an opportunity to see some of the dogs behind the names. Reading old copies or breed club year books is highly enlightening. It provides an opportunity to see who bred what and gained which awards in the past and how it all affects the breed today.

I'd like to say that I'm impressed by your thirst for knowledge, you are doing exactly the right thing asking lots of  questions.

Dawn R.

Nursey how do you get hold of breed club year books?

Do as I did join the breed club and then ask to purchase back copies of the clubs yearbooks/Annuals/Journals.  At first I bought the last 10 years in my breed, then i got the previous 10 and now with some gaps I ahve yearbooks going back to the 50s and it sure is enlighteneing seeiong all the succeeding generations of dogs, giving you pretty much a pictorial pedigree of the dogs around now.

As has been said a breeder will be more than happy to bore the pants off you explaining why they did a certain mating, what they hoped to get out of it and whether they achieved their aims.

Often you are going two steps forward one step back.  Also your experience in picking pups improves once yu have seen how your own develop from puppy to old age.

I now know I kept the wrong bitch from my first litter, in fact of the four she would be the one I wouldn't keep now, but she has brede some nice offspring.  By the time I bred from her I knew what I was trying to correct, which I did in her daughter, but the bitch I kept lacked a bit of substance and coat but had everything else I wanted.

I mated her to her Mums half brother, as I realised the mistake I had made when choosing her in her litter, but still wanted the qualities of her sire.  The result was the best litter I had bred, but sadly no-one wanted to show any of the pups.  I kept the best til last and then fate took a turn an I had her back.  I knew she was special as soon as I set eyes on her again, but even then I didn't realise how nice she was. 

She is now a Champion 3 times over having placed twic in the Group at Championship shows, and been shortlisted everytimne she has been BOB at a Champ show. 

More importantly mated to our Imported dog (outcrss for at least 10 generations) she has produced a nice litter including my pup who won into the final of the Pup Of The Year competion run at Championship shows.

Now with that pup I ahve the choice to pursue her sires lines or4 am able to go back into the mothers lines, and of course these decisions will depend on what other breeders are doing, as to what males will be available to mate her to.

From this you can see that a breeder is often thinking at least another generation away when planning a mating.

Ask the breeder herself - you should be able to feel totally confident in the answers that you are given - she should be able to explain each and every generation to you.

Margot

thanks guys for your comments. i apprieciate your help.

Yes, in general you are more likely to get what you expect (a typical breed example) if sire and dam share some ancestors three or four generations back. There are exceptions, but the breeder should be able to explain why that particular sire was used - how his genes are hoped to improve on the bitch.

If you visit a few shows (Crufts coming up soon!) and look at the dogs in the ring, see which ones you like the look of, and which ones are winning, then look in the catalogue to see who bred them, if there sires producing several winning offspring etc, then you'll have an idea who to ask about puppy availability.

May I say how refreshing it is to have someone asking questions before they buy the pup!
:)

hi frank,
            Whats the sire and dams kennel name?Can give you abit more info then.

                                                       sam

The dam is robangie gemini and sire oldwell bugler,

hi frank,
           You have picked as good as any of us can tell!,a nice litter(as their are some awfull pups about lately from people who dont really know what they are doing!!)
I dont think the dam was shown? but the sire is in the ring at the moment,and doing well.
This mating is what you call an "outcross"(no linked relatives between dam and sires pedigree),although seperately both parents are line bred along different lines(bugler alot more so).
There are good and bad points to this kind of breeding,
Bad points,you can never say what the pups will turn out like(by line breeding you should get alot more even a litter---most of the pups have the same features-qualities-faults) you may get some excellent pups from an outcross, others not as good!!!.
Good points to outcrossing is being able to get rid of faults that line breeding can cause.
Hope you understand this!(its alot easier to be able to talk it through with you, rather than writing stuff down!!!)

A good point for you if(when your more knowledgable) you may decide to breed from her,is that you have a variety of lines in your pups pedigree that you can carry on from(oldwell,graecia,evenstar(which 2 of my dogs come from) and even a few more.

No one can ever say that your pup will be brilliant, but good breeders should be able to pick dogs with faults that wouldnt be suitable for showing ie/crank tail,light mask,light eyes.
Although i dont know sarah well,they do seem genuine people,and sue(who has bugler) is a lovely lady who will always be there to lend you a helping hand,especially show wise,as shes usually at the shows.
"Show people" want their best dogs to go to show homes,as it carries their name on,so it wouldnt be in their interest to give you a crap dog!
Just out of curiousity what pick(choice) of the litter did you have,1st,2nd,3rd?

If you ever need any help please feel free to email me,but as i said,you have got decent breeders on both sides so help should only be a phonecall away.
Take care and enjoy your pup,
it would be great if you could email me some pics when you get her!!!!

                                     samantha

Hi sam, i,m not sure what you mean by 1st 2nd or 3rd pic?  are you going by which pups came 1st 2nd and so on or viewing wise, sarah weren't sure which pup had came second after the male, viewing wise i could only get there at a certain time, there was to pups with collars on which were going to pet homes so that way i was third.  I dont know if sue who owns the stud had first pic.  I did try evenstar just before christmas but all of the pups had gone unfortunately jan webster said to try champ dogs, this is where i found all the breeders.  i then emailed flinstock kennels as i have janet gunns book on bullmastiffs but there planning a litter for next spring. i did look at gemini robangies papers and oldwell buglers they have flinstock, evenstar and greacia i think in there papers, not sure now though i will have to have another look later.(memories like a civ)

How do i get your email address as i already have a picture of her?   If you dont mind me asking whats your kennel name?

Thanks everyone for your help, frank

hi,
   You can get my email address by clicking on my name above.
My affix is astonpride,we have a webpage on champdogs if you go on breeders.
Look forward to seeing the pics,

                                                 sam

Hi,
Thanks to all above who advised Frank to come back to the breeder for advice. Unfortunatley I don't actually know who Frank is, none of my puppies went to anyone called Frank.
The lines consist of mainly Graecia, Flintstock and of course Oldwell.
Robangie Gemini at Colkevar has been shown with good success at champ show level.
If you do have any more enquiries please feel free to phone or email me with them and we will always be willing to help.