I've just sat through the worst judging of my breed for a very long time and I have to ask the question: why do folk agree to judge a breed when they cannot recognise the basic breed requirements !. Some very typical and sound dogs were present but our judge simply failed to spot them - giving BOB to a dog that has at least 4 major faults according to our standard.One of  the breed's top winning bitch's was present ( she has 11CC's) and yes he gave her VHC out of 5 in open bitch :(. Another beautiful Champion male was placed 4th behind dogs with domed skulls, light eyes and short blocky heads - he knew NOTHING about the breed but seemed to judge them according to size (the bigger they were the more he liked em !). This is not sour grapes by the way as I had none of my own dogs there having previously been under this judge before :D :D :D - If anything todays judging was even worse

WHY do they do it

Yvonne

I think some judges like to believe they are picking out the dogs that have been overlooked!  There are another batch (usually breed judges) who are out to feather their own nests and there are another batch who are just CRAP! 

I am assuming this is a open?  I only ever go to opens when I am chasing JW's.  When we had our first show girl we would not get placed by a lot of breed judges because they didnt know who we were.  I know this because one actually said she had read a lot about my dog and had she realised who she was she would have placed her higher.  With my younger girl we are more known and quite honestly there have been occasions when she should not have beaten some of the dogs present who were held by new comers.

I never take my older girl ever since she was placed second to a dog who had never even got a first at any show and two days later she BOB at a champ show. 

If you get the chance try and read Andrew Braces book on how to judge dogs it is very entertaining and puts the judges point of view accross as well as the exhibitors.

>With my younger girl we are more known and quite honestly there have been occasions when she should not have beaten some of the dogs present who were held by new comers.

As somebody who rarely shows, but will show if I know I have a good example of my breeds, (I do judge by the way & steward a lot, so see a wide variety of breeds and judges), I do do get fed up of watching judges placing people because they have a high profile in the breeds I am interested in, while new comers with really good dogs go home unplaced. It isn't only all rounders who do this. I always thought the idea was to judge the dog against the breed standard, not the other end of the lead and number of known wins!

If the judge has judged the breeds, to their interpretation of the standard, and they are placing the dogs they honestly believe are the closest to the standard, whether or not I agree with them, is neither here nor there. I have often heard around breed rings, people saying "I won't show under an all rounder", or  "I won't enter show "X" because the judge has only been in the breed a very short time" and believe it or not, "The judge started out in Junior Handling with their Mums dogs".

Well a couple of things spring to mind, starting with the latter, if they have been at the ringside as they grew up they might have more idea than most people, also if you don't enter under new judges starting out then how are they going to get the experience?

Next we come to the all rounders. If a breed has in it's standard a particular mention of say, for example, a head detail, and breed specialists are going to be looking for that above and beyond all else, an all rounder might not be so knowledgeable, fair comment, but if you only show under breed specialists and keep winning there is the danger that you have a dog which is not correct as the point of special reference in the standard becomes the thing everyone is looking for, and you get an exageration of this detail. An all rounder may not be as aware of the importance of this head detail, but would put up a dog which is generally sound with less exageration of the specialist feature. This keeps breeds typical of their breed.

LOL I got a BOB under a terrier judge who gave my dogs a decent write up, but dropped himself in it when he critized all the entries for thier soft silky incorrect "jackets"as they should be harsh !!!! I think judging the Border Terriers at the same show confused him as of course Cavaliers should have a silky soft coat !!

Some judges you just can't help! lol

With my "first" breed being  one of the less nmerous in the Gundog Croup we often  get open show judges who have been asked to take on the breed as an "extra" so to speak.  It would seem that a lot of them have never even so much as glanced at the breed standard!  I no longer get wound up by this, simply taking the view you only pay a small fee, and usually have a nice day out if you dont get annoyed by silly judging!  Of cours,e I can understand how frustrating it can be if  you ar chasing a final JW point, with 18 months looming close.  However, I can never understand how judges manage to place dogs who are obviously unsound - which happens all too ofter, expecially at open shows.
bye
Gwen

Oh, how true, Gwen. In fact, I stopped entering Open Shows if the judge was a 'toy' specialist who was 'doing' dals as an add-on, as it were. As you say, if they'd had even a cursory glance at the standard it was a bonus. I remember one who didn't even realise that liver spotting was acceptable! :rolleyes:

Try having an import register breed that's where your fun starts.  Being told by top judges "ooh I know who brought these in"  and me feeling like saying oh do you I don't remember talking to you about it :d   Or this Bolognese is the wrong colour "Yeah that's because it's not a Bolognese and about 12" too tall".  Or this dogs pigmentation and eye colour is incorrect "have you read the breed standard yet?"  Or the colours are incorrect for a Lagotto "but they're not showing yet and this isn't one". 

These are at Championship shows and under top judges who judge Best in Show at these shows and also travel around Europe.

Though there again there was a lovely write-up on my young lad by a judge even though I told her his bad points, so that's nice!

Ahh, it's all good fun :d :d

To be honest If you can't take showing at open level as a bit of fun then I think its a bit sad.I know it can be frustrating but then as Gwen says its only a couple of £ and you're getting a good day out.
We've all been put below dogs we see as poorer examples than our own at some time at open and champ level but then we pay our entree fee for the judges opinion ......and thats what we're getting.
At an open show earlier this year one of my boys who was thrown out at Crufts last year went BOB over the DCC,RDCC and RBCC of the 2004 also....did they gripe...no we had a great day out and they stayed and supported him through the group and were annoyed for us when he was beaten into grp 2.
I always see it as a learning curve...I keep a list of judges who I won't bother showing under again since if the judge dosn't like my dogs then theres no point
Archer

Don't worry, I've no problem with judges who know the standard, and my dogs don't match up to their interpretation of it. All judges interpret the standards in their own way - that's what stops showing being boring! ;) What I do object to are those judges who don't know the standard!

Imagine a wheaten Scottie being marked down because it isn't black ...
:)

LOL. We took our dogs to a show a couple of weeks ago and (we don't normally take them) both our Champs placed 2nd and 3rd. the judge them came down the line and patronazingly said" don't worry your dogs will develop into something nice and will win for you in the future"
Ch Dreamcatcher the Wizard 3cc 2 with BOB 5 res cc 1 RBIS Champ. Runner up Champ stakes Windsor over 50 BOB open "26 groups 1 open
Ch U Catcher A Dream 4cc all with BOB 1 group 2. 2 CACIB's with BOB 1 group 2. 2 five point green stars. 1 BIS 2RBIS all these awards between 13 and 20 months old.
Yeah Right
ROTFLMSO
Terry

Terry,

if you don't usually take Ch Dreamcatcher the Wizard , how has he won over 50 BOB at open shows??!

These he won BEFORE he was made up
Now we mostly do champ stakes etc
terry

Know what you mean..... stewarding once for a ticket judge, he turned his back on the exhibitors and said to me "They are all so nice, I can't choose which ones to pick. What do you think I should do? Are there any big winners here I should know about?"

Told him, "Sir I am your steward you are the judge"!

Luckily he picked the best in the class as first the rest ??????? Beyond my best guess.

Yeah you should have seen his face when he was told about the dogs wins.
Don't mind losing to a better dog. but why do judges feel that they have to say something to justify why they put up that dog?
Terry

I do think that even at open show level a judge should know the basics of breed type for any breed they are judging - to penalise a BSD for lacking body length shows that they do not understand that the breed is MEANT to be square - to penalise a bitch of our breed because she lacks a mane (only seen in males !) is just laughable and then to give BOB to a dog which stands 28 " at the shoulder is quite simply incompetent judging.

Yes this was an all rounder and our breed was definately an 'add on' to others - its a catch 22 situation with a breed like ours - do we enter under poor judges and so keep the (few) classes we have or do we vote with our feet and lose them ???.

Yvonne

The funniest day's showing we ever had was at an Open Show in the West Country where the judge who was doing most of the working group gave BOBs to a Siberian(??) which would not have looked out of place in the Buhund ring, a Doberman bitch which was 4" taller than any of the males in the ring, a Rottweiler with no tan markings at all, and a crippled Dane which could barely drag itself around the ring. Then he wondered why the audience was laughing and giving him ironic cheers every time he made a decision! I know that you can sometimes see things as a judge "hands on" that you can't see from the sidelines, but this was going a little too far!

If you think thats bad I went to seminar where they were assessing judges to do group judging.  When everyone gets near the end a very well known judge said he had finished.  The astonished steward said but you havent seen them move!  He then declared he didnt need to see them move as he could assess the dog had good movement from the standing position. 

Dont know about you but I have seen many dogs which look a picture standing the minute they move the picture suddenly changes.  It was one of the occassions I was speechless. Needless to say he is on one of my never to go under while I have a breath in my body.

I stoped showing about 6 years ago.
I got fed up with so much face judging.Everyone knows it goes on.
One thing I hated was being told who was going to win before judging had started.
I was told by a top show person my dog had a major fault.
When I asked what it was .His reply was that we owned him.
I finished showing when a person who had only ever judged 6 dogs before knocked him.She placed him 5th out of 5.
People at ringside just couldnt believe it.
That was it for me.
Saying that she was the first person to ask me if he was for sale at his first show.
I did take him to three shows two years ago.Not into showing anymore.
I never minded him being beaten by a better dog.
We always took the best two dogs and fetched the best two home.
Dog

I think I would be put off by soo much 'face judging' within a breed.It does happen in our breed but not very oftne and us 'newbies' have a good deal of success and are welcomed into the fold with welcome arms!!
Do you think its got something to do with numbers?? In a breed like elkies where no's are small 'new blood' is needed to ensure the breed continues where as maybe with numerically stronger breeds its not so?
Archer

Yeah I do think it's linked to the popularity of a breed - our numbers are similar to Elkhounds and newcomers to the breed are warmly welcomed and encouraged to show. Quite a few 'newbies' have done well with their first Belgians and although some 'facey judging' does go on between breed specialists, it is relatively rare.
On the whole BSD exhibitors are a sociable bunch and are happy to encourage new enthusaists. Our biggest problem is the all rounder judge who insists on judging us as if we are GSD's . This has led to two differing types within the breed - the heavy boned, huge coated, over angulated type that the allrounders like ( usually moves with too much drive from the rear too :() and the smaller, finer boned moderately angled type ( which moves as only a real Belgian can :D)

Ah well - I guess we're not the only breed with this problem :rolleyes:

Yvonne

We have the opposite problem in Siberians. Too many racing obsessed "breed specialist" judges insist on judging our breed as if they were whippets. At least the all-rounders might have read the breed standard before judging and look for a dog which fits the standard rather than one which fits the currently fashionable "type" pushed by the breed club.

Well our breed entry at yesterdays show would maybe show how this can happen.  there were 5 exhibits for the 3 classes as unfortunately it clashed with our breeds puppy veteran and Champions contest.

There were two young exhibits of 17 and 18 months, two in their prime and a veteran bitch whose coat is not at it's best following a litter and spaying (hope when it moults out it will come back better).  Now the two youngsters and the Veteran had all won RCCs and the two in their prime were CCs, one being a Champion.

As a judge on a good day any one of the exhibits could have been put up and have beaten the others, and the same exhibits having met on numerous occasions have done the whole gammut of swapping places.

My Champion bitch decided to behave abominably, wouldn't stand still, jumping up bouncing around the ring, and generally sticking two fingers up!  She got 2nd to the male who went BOB, but in the challenge she beat the other class winners for RBOB.

Her daughter did nothing wrong but wasn't showing any sparkle under the overhead heaters, and the young male was similarily affected.  the Veteran was really on her toes, but her coat let her down.

My friends male put on a good performance, even though he is rather laid back, and then I showed him for her in the Group to third place.

My Champion did decide to behave better and won the Champion stakes, and her Veteran Mum won the younger Veteran stakes, but was pipped by the older Vet because of ehr coat, but the judge loved her feee ground covering gait (her and her daughters major good points).

I showed each of my 3 exhibits in 3 classes each under four different judges.

I think too many people enter one class only at Open shows and then are disappointed.  I find I have more fun entering lost of variety classes under different judges, gives you several bites st the cherry.  Always a bit disapointed if I do win BOB, as I then feel I should withdraw to gie the others a chance and so as not to be absent from the Group for the judges and breeds sake.

One write up which made us laugh about our beagle was 'nice markings' when markings don't make iota of difference to the breed.  And at an open show on sunday we came third in the hound group to be told by the judge 'you've got a nice bitch, and she was only beaten by 2 quality dogs'.  I know what he meant, but I'm sure I could take it to mean well, my dog must be c**p then. lol.

sarah