I have weaned 2 litters with Burns, and kept a pup from each litter. I used the puppy kibble (which although higher protein than adult, is still quite low) to around 5 or 6 months old. All the pups are doing well, although only the girl I kept from the first litter has been hip scored (the boy from the last litter was only 12 months old a couple of weeks ago). My girl had a score of 5/5 (breed average 12, her mother was 7/5 and her father very good under USA system).

As an aside, I have always supplemented with evening primrose oil or olive oil (long coated breed) and have to admit both have proven to be slower maturing than others of the same age. Although supposed to be a slow maturing breed, mine seem to be slower filling out, and I prefer that.

I have heard that some kibbles have a high calcium content. So thought you might like this information, gathered from a number of sources.

The borzois club did a study of other effects of feeding young dogs too much calcium, some years ago and the results were that these dogs then became more prone to bloat (torsion).

Actual calcium levels are important....an adult has an active
mechanism by which to regulate calcium uptake, so can more easily get rid of
excess by means of the kidneys. A pup relies almost entirely on passive
means so cannot actively excrete excess calcium; if there is excessive
calcium in the diet, it will be absorbed and not excreted. This goes whether
it be from raw bones or calcium supplementation, because of the form of
calcium in which uptake occurs - calcium is taken up in its ionic form,
vitamin D metabolites act as a carrier across the gut wall. All this stuff
about it being impossible to overdo calcium from a natural source doesn't
hold weight scientifically - the body doesn't make any distinction between
calcium ions from a bone and calcium ions from commercial food or
supplements.

http://www.petsvetsandyou.com/pcl/articles/c100010/q10000064.htm
"Immature dogs do not appear to be able to effectively limit intestinal
absorption of dietary calcium. Because of this inability, the higher the
calcium level in the diet, the more calcium that will be absorbed and
incorporated into developing bone. The resulting disturbances of
endochondral ossification can lead to the characteristic skeletal and joint
lesions."

http://www.speedyvet.com/NIP/CALCIUM/default.htm
"Calcium is absorbed in the ionised form, so the absorption is directly
related to the amount that is soluble and ionised in the small intestine.
Between 25 and 90 % of dietary calcium is absorbed from the intestine, by a
combination of passive (uncontrolled) and active (controlled) mechanisms.
Passive diffusion is the more important route in growing animals. Dogs have
the ability to adapt to long term calcium-deficient diets by increasing
calcium utilisation from the diet to over 90 %.
**(Which implies to me that it's better to be light on the bony offerings
than heavy!)

......Chronic overfeeding of calcium increases calcitonin secretion and
decreases PTH secretion. This decreases the activity of the osteoclasts
which are important for bone remodelling during growth. Young dogs do not
have the mechanisms to protect themselves against excessive calcium intake,
since the major route of calcium uptake is uncontrolled passive absorption.
The excess calcium is mainly deposited in the skeleton, which together with
reduced bone turnover, results in pathological changes in the growing
skeleton."

http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm
"Plasma calcium concentration is tightly regulated by the body. This
regulation is needed for the many calcium-dependent biologic processes, such
as muscle contraction, hormonal release, and blood coagulation. The release
of calcium-regulating hormones (parathyroid hormone [PTH], calcitonin [CT],
and 1,25- dihydroxycholecalciferol [1,25 vitamin D]) is influenced by plasma
calcium concentration. These hormones regulate calcium dynamics in the
intestine, kidneys, and bone.
Calcium excess is routed primarily to bone through the influence of the
calciotropic hormones on target organs. Chronic, high intake of calcium in
large breeds has been associated with hypercalcemia, concomitant
hypophosphatemia, rise in serum alkaline phosphatase, retarded bone
maturation, higher percentage of total bone volume, retarded bone
remodeling, decrease in osteoclasts, and retarded maturation of cartilage.
These changes cause disturbances in endochondral ossification (articular and
epiphyseal).(6) When high calcium intake (calcium excess) is coupled with
relatively little absorption from bone, severe pathologic changes occur in
the young, growing skeleton that is unable to respond by normal remodeling
and endochondral ossification. The clinical diseases associated with these
changes are osteochondrosis, retained cartilage cones, radius curvus
syndrome, and stunted growth.(1,6) Therefore, calcium excess is a major
causative or contributing factor in the pathogenesis of skeletal disease in
the growing giant-breed dog.(3-6)

It is the absolute level of calcium, rather than the calcium/phosphorus
ratio, that most influences skeletal disease.(11) Young, giant-breed dogs
fed a diet containing 3.3% calcium (dry matter basis) and 0.9% or 3%
phosphorus have significantly increased incidence of developmental bone
disease. These dogs seem to be unable to protect themselves against the
negative effects of chronic excess levels of calcium.(26) "

Yes I do think we are worrying too much about balancing diets now & think its near impossible to feed balnced meal daily! :)
K/c, I tried in the begining to work out the protein content but gave up, some wks they`d have fish 2-3 times, then maybe it`d be too expensive so wouldn`t have it for a fortnight, the same with rabbit, now I`m happy knowing they`re getting balance over time :) Like you I`ve found less & more even growth spurts & slowe growth all round. I also find less of a weight problem.

I/cosmos, I`ve just measure Harmony, she`s 9mths & she is just 19 inches, 1 & half inces under her standard & don`t think she`ll be up to size till maybe 18mths-2yrs.
I also had a male fed complete that was up to size at 7mths, never again!!! Also my young male now that has just come into his own was very poorly whan a pup & I wondered if he`d ever make it to size, but I still fed him raw. At about 2yrs old he started to catch up & I stopped worrying, my friend kept telling me don`t worry he had it as a pup & it`ll come back & she was right one thing I did make a conscious effort to do was not over feed him to make up for his illness, found that hard!! :) Thats why its nice for me to compare this pup as she`s never been ill up to now!!!

Christine, Spain.

Many thanks Christine,

I do get told not to worry and that he'll make it up, it's just hard to believe when you see him compared to his litter mates - he's only the size of the smallest bitch. At the moment he's standing at about 1 inch below minimum height (approx 24 inches). It's good to hear that your pup who was poorly caught up :) Like yourself I had to make a conscious effort not to over feed him due to his illness, but he's fine in himself now so I guess I just have to wait and see. One thing I have found with feeding raw is that his weight gain has been nice and even - my bitch had a tendancy to put on weight very easily on kibble, but she looks much better since changing over to a raw diet.

Thanks once again :)

Hi Ice/C, after being the best in the litter he ended up literally a skeleton after being ill, you`d have had to see him to believe it. At the time I just had to concentrate on getting him well & then thoughts of how he looked re for the ring started to creep in, his topline was none existant, but funnily enough he never lost the good bone he was born with. :) Like you I`ll never whether it was the diet or the illness that caused his slow growth rate, tho honestly think it was both. With Harmony I know it`s the diet & also cos of others who`ve found slow rate with this diet. We`ll both have to be patient eh? :)

Found another piece on VitC and its role on uptake of other vits & protein

http://www.uspcak9.com/medical/vitaminc.shtml

Christine, Spain.

Polly, do we know which kibbles are reputedly too high in calcium?   I would have thought that all the reputable companies had this one cracked, but maybe not???

Interesting abstracts, though, thanks for that.

Jo

Jo i`ve read a few articles on calcium levels in dog food that says to remember the manu`s only have show minimum info levels on bags & sometimes the actual level can be higher than whats stated.

Christine, Spain.

That's a bit scary, but as I said, I suppose you have to have confidence in the reputable companies.    We're really completely in their hands with this one if we use any complete, aren't we?

Jo

Totaly in their hands Jo, only thing I know for sure is it ain`t easy either way you go!!

Christine, Spain.

As you know, I'm not into Barf diets, but I get more worried about what some manufacturers are doing. There is no doubt in my mind that apart from what has already been said on this thread, at least some cases of hyperactivity can be linked to diet. It's been proved with children and I'm sure it's also the case in dogs. I have a food which I like for my dogs and also have what I feel to be an alternative, but so many I would not have in the house! One which now advertises "No artificial colorants was previously so highly coloured and got such a bad name that they were forced to do something! Others appear to me to be only marginally better in that respect. When walking around Crufts, just spend a moment making a mental note of the brightness of the colours and remember, the colour is not there for the dog's benefit, he could not care less! It's purely to attract the buyer!

Regards, John

Hi there just thought I'd add my thoughts. I have two different breeds and I can say in my experience at least one of them has hyperactive tendancies with higher protein foods.

The lady who bred both my girls parents is a great advocate of lower protein foods and she has had dogs for very long time, so we took her advice on board. It may well just be my breed but I know of too many people who swear that too much protein in their dogs food makes them hyperactive for this to be coincedental. We kept to the lower protein levels with our girl and there was a considerable difference between her and most of the other puppies out at the time. She has caught up with them now and there is no difference to be seen. We did breifly change her food as she wouldn't put weight on and we were advised to try something else. The protein level was about 5% higher than she was used to and she became a holy terror within a matter of days, so we very quickly looked into other alternatives. We have been feeding all our dogs a mixture of Burns Canine Extra and tripe for almost a year now, they all look fabulous and they always draw comments saying how good they look.  I  first added the tripe to my girls diet as we couldn't keep weight on her wth burns alone as she had the runs with the recommended feeding amount, but with the added tripe she keeps her weight up has a beautiful coat and lovely solid poo's. When she was hipscored it came back 10/9 which is below average for her breed.She was mated a fortnight ago and if all proves to be sucessful I will definitely be rearing her litter on Burns. It makes me think how many lovely dogs that have been sent to rescue centres are there purely due to the food they were being fed. I know one person who actually feeds their dog on one food and then for a week before a show they change him onto something thats lower in protein, as they said if they didn't they would have a devil of a time trying to show him.

Stopping rambling now :D

Alli

You're not rambling Alli. :) I'm convinced that food has an input into our dogs. After all, it's the fuel they run on. If you added Nitro methane into your car's petrol you would blow the engine apart and yet a Drag Racer runs on the stuff!

Protein is not the only part of a dog's (Or human's) diet which can cause problems, certain additives, colorants and preservative cause as much if not more problems I certainly agree that some of the dogs who find their way into the rescues could well have a problem linked to their feeding. I was interested to read that you had a "Before and After" dog! It pretty well proves the point!

I'm absolutely convinced that some food manufacturers prepare their food with us in mind rather than our dogs!

Regards, John

I do agree that pet food is aimed at humans rather than pets. My sister and myself have argued this point many times. She doesn't think I'm being fair on my dogs by feeding them the same thing day in and day out. She buys a variety pack of tinned meat and changes their biscuits every week as "the dogs might get bored with the same thing" I have tried to explain until I'm blue in the face, but she keeps telling me that I'm not a canine nutritionist and surely these pet food companies know better than me. (I'm no expert on feeding, but I'll take any advise and help I can get from someone who has been around dogs a lot longer than I have) If it hadn't been for the years I kept horses and lived on a farm I may well be thinking along the same lines as her by now, thank god I don't or I may well have been guilty of sending a super dog off to a rescue centre myself. Like I said before when we changed food her behaviour went downhill very quickly. I found her to be a completely different dog. She couldn't sit still for more than a second and she chewed everything in sight, we even had a few instances when she actually growled at me when I went to take something from her, which was very unlike her. So we decided that something had to be causing her behaviour and after speaking to a friend we took her off the food and put her back on Burns. She was a changed dog in a matter of 3 days, back to her normal happy self with her usual behaviour. Don't get me wrong, she still had the occasional chew at things but what 7 month old puppy doesn't :D I am currently in the process of writing up a sheet to add to puppy packs recommending the feeding of lower protein, and will discuss feeding with peple who buy a puppy.

Alli

John,

In my experience if dog food manufacturers made the food with the dogs tastes in mind they'd probably use a combination of a rotting rabbit carcases, assorted animal poo and some childrens wax crayons! I'm pretty sure all my dogs would love it, and the crayons would provide all the colouring needed!

I think you're dead right on that one Havoc! ;)

Best wishes, John