Can you tell me if there is more of a  HD problem with show labs compared to working?
Archer

Dudley my youngest has severe HD (score of 86 ) and she is from working lines. All my other girls have been from show lines and have got below ave scores :) Obviously this is a small snapshot so I doubt will be representative of the true picture :)

I know the stud dog LJS is talking about and although he has a very good score I know several of his offspring who do not.

I think by and large working people are very aware about the problems HD brings and from a mercenary point of view it is a waste of time spending two years of your life training a dog only to have it break down after a short time working. Life in the field is hard work, long retrieves carrying birds, jumping fences, wading through deep mud, certainly enough to break down any dog with poor hips.

Yes, bad hips can occur in working lines but by and large these dogs would quickly be removed from the breeding program. It could also have an effect that generally speaking, working people keep their dogs leaner that show people.

What does worry me is the amount of dogs with OCD which are showing up! As you know, this, along with puppy food is one of my hobby horses. I'm seeing so much more now than ever before and there must be a reason for it somewhere.

Regards, John

Off topic : What is OCD ? (I'm dutch so sometimes abbreviations are a bit hard for me)
And since a pup is coming in March I want to brush up my knowledge concerning the puppy things
(Has been over 8 years since there was a pup , plus that times are changing and knowledge changes)

Osteochondrosis. It can occur in the shoulder, elbow or stifle although in Labradors it tends to be more in elbows. A flake of cartilage lifts on the ball of the joint. This is called a "Mouse" the mouse can break away and the problem goes with it or it can need surgery. It normally shows it's self at between 6 and 18 months and the usually treatment is enforced cage rest with very limited exercise. If this does not sort it then the mouse can be removed by surgery.

Check if your sire and dam have been elbow scored. A score of 0 means they are clear of OCD.

Regards, John

Thanks John. Is OCD restricted to labs? Or does this concern all retrievers?

John :-))  Am I right in saying that until recently only a small percentage got the elbows tested , now more and more are regularly testing.

Not sure but could this be two ways of looking at it , (1) there are more cases or (2) because we are now testing we are now seeing publsihed results and just how much a problem it is..

Pam

There are still far less elbow test results published in the breed record supplement than hip scores. However, in the last couple of years the number of FTCh stud dogs advertised as having elbows scored has gone from virtually none to most of them.

The cases of OCD I have come across have been diagnosed after a dog had suffered problems rather than during the elbow scoring process.

With regard to show vs working, I dont think the difference is significant. I did a comparison a few years ago using the Joan Mcann hip score book and there didnt seem a significant difference. My theory is that the build of a show lab would make it more predisposed to hip and elbow problems. However, I feel that show breeders generally (but not always) have a greater knowledge of bloodlines and pedigrees and are also more protective of their dogs as they are growing. I want a dog ready for the shooting field at 14 months, so its going to have to do through some fairly strenuous activity before its a year old. Also many owners of FTChs are not very fussy about which bitches are mated with their dogs, and whether they are scored or not.

There are certainly some fashionable FTCh stud dogs that throw more than their share of very high hip scores. However, they still get used because a) lack of knowledge from bitch owners b) they also throw some very good pups that have done well in trials.

Given the huge amount of labradors bred, I'd think that the majority are not really either show or working. When you look at the pedigrees they are really just 'bitsas' - pedigrees with a few show dogs a few workers and a whole lot of other dogs that sleep and eat for a living.

Wendy.

All breeds are susceptible to OCD but it tends to be more amongst the larger breeds. I see quite a bit in Labradors and Goldens but possibly less in Flatcoated Retrievers! Strange at these breeds were interbred quite a bit during the formative years!

I forgot to mention in the earlier post that elbows and shoulders are rated 0 (Perfect) to 3 (As bad as it gets) when scored.

Pam.

I follow your drift Pam but no. I'm basing my statement on what I actually see at training and dog club. So really, I'm talking about dogs actually having a physical problem rather than dogs who have been tested and found to clinically have OCD.

Best wishes, John

Thanks for the information John.
I checked the sire and dam info but didn't see any check for OCD.
(all other test results are there, hips, eyes etc)
We will have the pup checked for HD etc when he is a year so will mention checking on that aswell
when the time comes
He will be a pet with training. But no work/shows or breeding.

Thanks very much John
Archer

Elbow and shoulder testing is relativly new in this country, being introduced as late as 1997! The takeup, as mentioned by Havoc, has been slow, although it is now gathering speed. At the moment, if you restrict your search for a puppy to only pup's from both sire and dam that have been tested you will find them few and far between. That is changing now though and just like hip scoring was slow to get started, in the not too distant future I would hope most responsible breeders will be testing both.

Best wishes, John

Thanks (again) John.
Don't know how far we are here in the Netherlands with testing.
Will check on that too (Don't think that my boss will allow me to buy another pup ever since all I do is check the internet
for info :D )

Your more than welcome Wendy. I think America was possibly the first to start Elbow scoring. Don't worry overly about hereditory problems, by from a responsible breeder and enjoy your puppy. By far and away the bulk on dogs never suffer any problems.

Best wishes, John

We will enjoy the pup. And I really trust the breeder. She provided all the info I asked for
and I have all the info about the bloodline, hips, eyes, etc etc.

Interestingly when I was thinking of breeding from my bitch I asked the vet about shoulder and elbow scores and was shocked whe she said they did not have the required equipment and it was totally unnecessary. This from a vets that has set itself up as an area center!  

That's a bit disconcerting! The method is, three x-ray views of each elbow. Side view fully extended, side view fully bent and front view. Nothing difficult! The only equipment needed is the x-ray. Sounds more like they did not know the procedure and that would be very worrying! I would certainly think twice before allowing them to do plates for hip scoring as well because the possibilities for messing up with them are legion!

As I said, as far as OCD is concerned It's where it's all coming from that worries me. I think, like hips, there is no one answer. I'm quite confident of the hereditary side but think there is rather more in it than that. I firmly believe there is also a dietary element involved. Whether, as I believe with hips, a dog might have a propensity to it but needs the addition of another "trigger" to bring it out? Over exercise will certainly accentuate a hip problem, maybe faster growing foods add to the problems of OCD. Breeding may also play a part. A big winning dog, ring or field, can have a very big influence on a breed and if it carried a problem then it could in a relatively short time ensure the problem was well ingrained in the breed! For what it's worth that's my feelings anyway. Whatever the reason, no one will ever convince me that we are not getting many more cases these days. 

Best wishes, John

I agree John - If I was going to proceed it would not be using that vet! I think you are right in saying that there are a number of factors, certainly my 8 year old appears to be starting to have problems and he grew far too quickly as a pup (If only I knew then what I know now!). I also know of a number of dogs that are allowed too much 'free' excercise as pups that go on to develop problems. Im a firm believer in on lead excercise rather than just allowing a young dog to run wild, it also hardens up their pads if they are walking on the pavement.  Given the opportunity, especially if there is someone to chase I believe that many pups will run themselves to a point of exhaustion, which cannot do them any good.

So in short well said

Bluebell

Maybe as a snippet of interest.  Penny hipscore 90 45:45,  Emma hipscore 13 6:7, they are half sisters by same stud. Both are grandaughters of Ch. Follytower Merrybrook Black Stormer. Penny's Dam's side is generations of below averge score. Elbow scores at 0. Both show heavier show type. Penny fine boned, Emma very heavy boned.

Follytower Merrybrook Black Stormer was by Sandylands Tandy, Tandy was by Tan, Tan by Sandylands Tweed of Blaircourt who of course was sired by Ruler of Blaircourt who, to me anyway was one of the first of the modern chunkier Labradors. Those three great Sandylands dogs, Tweed, Tan and Tandy shaped the modern Labrador.

Regards, John

Thanks for that John :)  Emma is result of the following mating

Sire Ch Follytower Merrybrook Black Stormer , Dam Sh Ch Sandylands Girl Friday  = Ch Sandylands Sonnet,

Emma is very dense boned, well muscled and barrel chested, so unlike all my others, except little Ellie, who is also a descendant from those 2 matings, and at 20 weeks is showing all the signs of being the heavier barrel chested type.

And yet Tia, who is also from the Follytower lines on the Sires side, is very much a typical Oakhouse.

Tia is booked in on Wednesday for hip x-ray, so sitting on edge of seat for next few weeks :D

Emma has Ruler five times in her pedigree so even though they come well back he has a strong presents. He was a very nice dog although my preference was for the older finer lines such as Whatstandwell Coronet who you do not have in her line.

Best wishes, John

Yes, Emma is a very heavy stocky type, very square and short coupled, whereas Penny, from same Sire but with an injection of the Oakhouse lines, does not look out of place in a working line-up. Anyway sorry for hijacking the thread, it was really to give a perspective on the hip scores of half siblings.

Sorry, I think I should make it clear, this dog is not a closely bred as my previous post might appear to make out! I have these dogs in my database and was quoting from a ten generation pedigree. Ruler of Blaircourt was actually born in 1956 and appears in the pedigree of my very first Labrador! As did Follytower Merrybrook Black Stormer

Best wishes, John