I was chatting on the phone last night to a lady that had a pup from my last litter; Arnie is now 10 months old.  She dropped in to the conversation that she had to cancel his hip scoring appointment as she was busy that particular day.....I obviously replied with a 'huh'???? I said you can not score his hips until he is a year old and she was rather shocked and told me that the vet had booked him in! 

Can we trust vets these days and how can we be sure that what they recommend you do is not just for the pennies??

I called the vets today to have a whine, I said that should an incorrect high score come back then I would look at fault - I bred from dogs with scores of 4:4 and 4:3 so would presume a hight score unlikely but not impossible, but at least at 1yr old it would be correct!  I was advised to write a letter which I have done, is there anything else that I could do in order to prevent this practice abusing their clients trust in the future??

The thing is an X-Ray of a dog under a year would be rejected by the BVA and would not be scored.  All the procedure notes state the age.  I would tell your puppy ownert to go elsewhere to ahve the X-rays done in due course, as if they can't read the notes that far how on earth are they going to position the dog correctly for a decent x-ray that can be scored.

It is a fact that the score can be affected by poor positioning and that expereinced vets often get more accurate results from plates they take.

Hi

Well Exactly, I know that the BVA would not accept this and therefore am totally confused as to how the vet was going to produce a certificate or score?  This does also worry me with regards to the positioning and I will be seeing the lady this evening and will chat to her about registering to another vet.......deff to be avoided.

I guess for those of us who know a bit better and are aware of certain procedure are clued up and don't get taken for a ride!

I am just glad that I have kept in close contact with the puppies new owners so that I can advise them in certain instances!

Yes some do a brilliant job of undermining the new owners relationship with the breeder.  Causing needless panic, like telling Boxer pups owner that it's mouth was wrong (an undershot jaw is a bred feature).

Not pointing out to an owner that a suspected mild heart murmer at 8 weeks was more than likely innocent, especially with the pup being lively and well grown and in the pink of health.  This is not a predisposition in my breed and by 10 weeks with final jabs there was no sign of a murmer, even when double checked.

The second scenario probably occurs more now that pups are often taken for their jabs earlier than they used to be.  Most owners usually waited for the first jabs to take pup to the vet for first time, adn this used to be at 9 or 10 weeks.

Don't you think sometimes, though, the story gets a bit wonkie in the telling, for instance perhaps the lady booked an appointment with the receptionist for the Xrays who perhaps assumed she knew the dog had to be 12 months,  I also think  it is very easy to missunderstand what vets say in the pressure of a consultation and  by the time they are heard third hand it can get even more squewiffy :)

Yes that of course can be true, but with new vets especially I often think they are trying to show off how clever they are, and spout about things they know next to nothing about, like feeding, breeding, breed standards etc(unless of course theya re involved with these things).  A vet is an expert (we hope) on diagnosing and treating illness, and not as they often would like owners to think a fount of animal knowledge.

Took me a long time to find a vet (and he is from New Zealand) who actually realises that I have far more expertise about my breed, breeding and rearing than he ever will, and tyhat I seek his advise on health matters.  He will often ask me about the things he is not expert about, but never pretends he knows what he doesn't.  Most of all all dogs love him, and I think nearly all the local GSD owners ahve migrated to him, as he isn't afraid of them, so they are invariably much better patients for him.

I went to see the Arnies owner last night and discussed this matter with her.  She told me that the Vet she saw was a new younger one that seemed to be scared of this soppy 10month old Rottweiler and hardly handled him at all.  He was the one that told them to book the hip x-rays and he also booked it in, maybe he was on of those trying to show off and bleed money out of this lady as she quite rightly trusted what the vet had said - he also tried to get her to change the food that that Arnie is doing great on!  I have told her to either stick to the vet she normally sees or to move practices all together and to contact me before any procedures are book in.

I am quite lucky as the vet I see is very good, he realises that I am not silly and know what I am talking about in a lot of cases and what I need and don't need (in the way or wormers, flea treatment etc etc) and is very honest with me.  He never gives my dog's unnecessary pain killers or antibiotics and I trust him completely, but as I said is this because he knows he can not take me for a ride???

I am not saying all vets and not to be trusted but I do think it is a shame that those who are venerable are targeted by many!

Think theres a differenc between trusting them & putting blind trust in them! I really think with most people having internet now & researching being a lot easier to do, we should all be questioning vets & drs. Just so we can understand better the diagnosis, treatments, side effects & alternatives. :)
Maybe a cynic but even tho I trust my vet I still question everything ;) :D

Christine, Spain.

I took my dog to the vet last week for a mild tummy upset. When my answers to his questions left him a bit stumped (dog doesn't scavenge/swim in dirty water/run free in fields or parks) he asked if he was fully vaccinated.  When I told him we don't vaccinate he immediately jumped on this and suggested it was probably a form of parvovirus.
There was a time when this might have thrown me into a panic but, over the years, I've learned to trust my instincts more and vets a lot less....

Me too Joyce!!! :) Not vaccinating & parvo get the blame for a lot of things even tho a lot of gastro illnesses have similar symptoms to it ;) Tho how on earth vets can make a correct diagnosis without testing is beyond me...
Christine, Spain.

OK, I'll throw a curve in here! I like to see the young vets fresh out of vet college! I feel they bring a lot of new thinking into a practise. Yes, obviously they need to be watched because book learning is rather different to the real thing. I think a practise imposes it's values onto a new vet and if the practise is sound then they are not likely to tolerate a new vet trying extortion! If anything like that happened at the practise I use then the senior partners would soon get to hear, believe me! (I've never been backward about letting people know my feeling!!) It is so easy for a practise made up of possibly older vets who have been away from vet college for many years to fall behind on new ideas and practises and often its is the young ones coming in who educate the older ones.

Regards, John

My vet isn't newly qualified but is very forward looking & he arranges seminars for the local vets for new research & treatment He is very upto date & is now one of the senior vets at the practice. He is never satisfied if he cannot get to the bottom of a problem & is willing to get advice & information from anywhere & he is not closed minded to holistic treatments either We are currently monitoring one of my cavaliers hearts(not at a stage for medication)& I am treating him holistically.

There are some vets(one was from the BBC vets program)locally that really aren't up to speed & never will be Glad to say not at my practice

There is a scrummy spanish vet tho' when he x rayed one of the cavaliers he was amazed that he needed no sedation & just laid where he was put ! The benefits of obedience training !

In my limited expereince the young foreign educated (australian and New Zealand especially) vets seem to have a much better bedside manner and do not assume the owner is ignorant.  They allso seem to be much more clued up on less common problems.  They never seem to push foods or wormers ad lib either.

One thing to remember, you cannot have old, experienced vets without them first having been young inexperienced vets!

Regards, John

Don`t mind them being young & inexperienced J, but must admit I prefer them to have some experience ;) it`s the ones that think they know it all & don`t listen :)

Christine, Spain.

I'm with John on this one, it was a young, inexperienced and still in college vet who diagnoesed my Megans disease, (Myastinia Gravis) after 2 vets, both of whom I greatly admire, were still scratching their heads. I was ready to let her go at 3 years old, but this young man gave her another 6 very good and lively years

lol Christine
I swear my vet sees me in the waiting room and thinks Oh God what is she going to ask me about today, I want answers for everything and I will ask every question I think is relevant until I feel I've had a satifactory reply. If he doesn't know the answer he does his best to find out for me. I also swear that the receptionists have been told to give me an appointment right at the end of surgery as we always spend ages chatting about one thing or another. Poor vet, he has aged about 20 years since I started taking my dogs to him :D

Alli

you are asking the vet lots but so do i your making sure your dog is ok and that is a good thing you ask your vet as many questions as you like after all thats what they are paid for just like a mother with her child your looking after what you love.

In response to my initial post!
I received a letter back from the vet in question yesterday; he claims that I have been misinformed!  He said that the owner of Arnie expressed he worries about hip problems in larger dogs and he advised that he could do a hip x-ray to asses them purely for peace of mind and from a health point as he is fully aware that the BVA will not accept the x-rays for scoring and he knows that the dog would not be used at stud.  My point is; why did he not tell the owner that she could wait another couple of months and have them sent to the BVA for a proper diagnosis and score and she would also have a certificate to show for the £180 + that she would pay the vet (even if its not great news)!  Also if the BVA will not accept the x-rays before 1 year of age then how can a vet assess the hips correctly at 10 months of age??? Surely he can see that there is a reason for why the BVA only accept x-rays of dogs over 12 mths?? It really did annoy me and just goes to show that whilst the vet claims to have had his clients best interest at heart he in fact wanted her money ASAP when he should have advised her to wait until April and go through the procedure correctly! 

Right now I have got that off my chest I feel a bit better and can continue with my day:)

The vet would be able to just access the hips if the owner was worried
I beleive the police get their pups x-rayed at 6 months and depending on the state of the x-ray is also a deciding
factor if the pup continues on a lengthy and expensive training course, its no use putting all that training
in if at 12 months the pups hips arent up to the results they were expecting.

£180 is a little on the high side though,I get my rotties done and it costs me £110 including the BVA fee
though now I have a vet that only charges £70 including the BVA :-)

It is easy for new owners not to listen to the vet properly or maybe not explain to you the
same details the vet told them.

<Also if the BVA will not accept the x-rays before 1 year of age then how can a vet assess the hips correctly at 10 months of age??? Surely he can see that there is a reason for why the BVA only accept x-rays of dogs over 12 mths??>

The 12-month age is because of the rules of the BVA scheme. As an extreme example, an x-ray of the hips taken at 11 months, 3 weeks and 5 days will not differ greatly from one taken at 12 months!

Many breeders have a preliminary x-ray at 9 or 10 months, especially in the case of a promising stud-dog with several enquiries for future use. This allows the breeder to have a fair idea of whether the hips are good, mediocre or bad and plan accordingly. The BVA panel are the official scorers, but there are many people with years of experience who can estimate the score to within a few points and a high hip score is very obvious even to the less experienced eye.

Snomaes

(Many breeders have a preliminary x-ray at 9 or 10 months, especially in the case of a promising stud-dog with several enquiries for future use. This allows the breeder to have a fair idea of whether the hips are good, mediocre or bad and plan accordingly. The BVA panel are the official scorers, but there are many people with years of experience who can estimate the score to within a few points and a high hip score is very obvious even to the less experienced eye.)

And presumably if its bad, they don't get a BVA hip score, the breed average stays down, and so gives a false account, and the breeder doesn't get a reputation for breeding dogs with bad hips! Hmm.

<And presumably if its bad, they don't get a BVA hip score, the breed average stays down, and so gives a false account, and the breeder doesn't get a reputation for breeding dogs with bad hips! Hmm.>

Why is this a problem? The reason for hip-scoring dogs is to improve the hip status of the breed. If a dog is hip-scored and is too high to be bred from, the dog is excluded from the gene-pool and the genes from this particular dog do not perpetuate within the breed.

It is only of academic interest to know the true hip score of EVERY dog in the breed, but with most dogs going as pets this is never going to happen. Second best must surely be to know the hip status of every dog in the breeding population?
A secondary effect of submitting every hip-radiograph for scoring could even undo many years of work by breeders who have been endeavoring to reduce the BMS within their choosen breed . The BMS of any particular breed is useful for making a decision whether to breed a dog or not. If every dog was hip-scored, the BMS could only increase and the temptation would be to breed from higher hip-scores than is presently accepted, because it would be nearer to the mean-score. This would not be good for any breed.

I believe the only way to make progress with hip scores is to check dogs intended for use within the breeding population and be more selective with the choice of lower-scoring sires and dams. Obviously there are many more factors to be taken into account when selecting dogs for breeding than just the hip score, it is just one part of the puzzle.

If breeders are concerned about getting a reputation for breeding 'bad' hips, they would be wise to get a hobby that does not rely on the whims of 'mother nature'. No-one should be concerned about 'failing' genetic health testing schemes. It is not anyone's fault, so why should they get a bad reputation? Surely the ones who should get a bad reputation are those who have the hips scored and then breed from a high scoring animal regardless of the result?

Snomaes

Yes but how many GP Vets would be able to give a good idea of whether the hips were bad or not.  I know people who have been told their dog hips looked great and the BVA gave a high score, and another advised not to submit plates for scoring as they looked bad and the dog had a great score in single figures Total!

So for this kind of Vet to then try to assess hips on an unformed youngster????  A Specialist might be able to give an educated answer.

<So for this kind of Vet to then try to assess hips on an unformed youngster????  A Specialist might be able to give an educated answer.>

Or an experienced breeder with a knowledge of what a good plate should look like. We have the radiographs of nearly all our dogs that we have had scored over the past 18 years. Some are high, some are low and most are average. It is easy to tell a bad hip or a good hip, but almost impossible for the layman to make a guess at a likely score.

Snomaes

I used to go to a really bad vet that could not tell that my cat was pregnant and 3 weeks later she had kittens (on a pile of shoes in the cupboard as I was not prepared). I change vets straight away and luckily I found a very good practice which is just as well as my dog had middle ear disease and has had to have several operations. I could not have put him in better hands.