Has anyone any views on the effect (if any) of high/low protein on hip scores and general skeletal development.

I am choosing weaning foods for my present litter - normally use JWB and Pedigree Professional .   Was looking at Burns as well, and wonder what the effect of the much lower protein and fat levels of Burns has on development.

I like to get them accustomed to a couple of foods so that the new owner has a choice.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats.

i use pro plan on my last two litter.plus use nutro and euk in the pass,all my dogs hip are good,9 or below,poor teyha are high due to the run in the tree at 4 months 14/3.so no side effect with high protein with my lot.

ann younes is use  burns on her dogs at the moment,

<<Has anyone any views on the effect (if any) of high/low protein on hip scores and general skeletal development>>

Yes, me! I have long held the view that the higher protein "Puppy" foods are bringing the pup's along too fast. I'm convinced OCD has snowballed since these foods have become available. Too faster bone growth leading to bone plate problems and too faster overall growth leading to too much weight being carried by the bones at a too younger age.

This is why I get right away from "Puppy" foods very early and straight onto lower protein adult foods.

Best wishes, John

PS. Don't forget training Sunday is at Hall Barn, not at Windsor!

I wholeheartedly agree with you John.  In 30 years I had never heard of OCD until the last few years, and the only thing I can think has changed is the widespread use of complete puppy foods.  My vet says OCD is now becoming quite common in even some toy breeds!  IMO it can only be the feeding, nothing else has changed.

As soon as my pups are 8 weeks I shall stop puppy and either go to junior (hesitant about even this though) or revert to biscuit meal and tripe/beef for the pups I am running on. 

And me!! It seems to be the "everything now" culture - owners want an instant adult! I feed a raw (more or less) diet, my puppies grow more slowly but they end up the same size & sounder & healthier than those "intensively farmed" ! JM (totally unbiased!) O

Have any of you actually reared a litter on Burns, and have followed the pups through to adulthood?     Like John, I know that we're not forcing sticks of rhubarb or growing weaner pigs, but producing pups who will hopefully have a long and healthy life.

John - not yet sure about Hall Barn, but will make it if poss!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I do agree with John. My youngster has been brought on very slowly and is as sound and agile as anything. I feed a very mixed diet, some dried food, some Butchers, fresh meats, mixer type biscuits, and fresh and tinned fish.
However the down side is..... Sometimes the slower pups like my Arty, always look small compared to dogs his age and younger. They mature later and are less likely to "go over" their best by maturity. I was told recently that Arty is a good typical youngster but will not win in the ring because it has been noticed by a number of people he is much smaller than dogs his age and many who are younger than he is. Even I have thought he looks like a minor puppy put into junior by mistake! It will take him much longer than most to come to his best, but he will be a handsome dog when others are retiring.

*However the down side is..... * Couldn`t agree more Polly :(
My young male will be 4yrs in a couple of mths he didn`t stand a chance next to some of the other males. Had comments of quality dog, needs bulking out/super dog, needs more weight on him! Even my best friends said at the last show they felt sorry for him in the line up, he looked so small, why don`t I feed him up? Glad to say he`s finally coming into his own now, it`s been a long wait but prefer it to forcing him :) Got a young bitch now & she was the smallest in her class....

On the protein question I believe it`s the quality & digestablity of it thats most important rather than low or high & myself use high quality/highly digestable over low amounts.

Christine, Spain.

I don't know about the actual protein levels, but do beleive I read about a study somwhere that weight definately was a factor and that pups fed aproximately 20% less than a control group and kept decidely lean had far better hip scores, but can't think where I saw it, or if it is a figment of my muddled mind :D

anyone fancy doing some searching???

This link sites published data:
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/2788/chance1.htm#Puppy%20Food%20or%20Adult%20Food?

Hi Jo,

If you want to email me I have just reared my second litter on Burns. From the first litter I have two youngsters here and the second litter have just gone to their new homes.I have photos of ALL of them and carfully watch their progress and development.
E mail me if you want my thoughts on Burns feeding and particularly rearing litters.
leiborschy@btinternet.com
Diane

I have a photocopy of Jackie Perkins Viszla notes from over 10 years ago where a study had been done in US Viszla pups & their resulting hip scores.  It was recommended to feed a low protein food to the puppy, 1000mg Vit C daily and keeping exercise to flat ground or swimming.    I am going back to this method if/when i breed another litter.  

Hi Diane

Sorry - computer crashed twice, so have only just caught up on my own thread.    I can't find your email addy - maybe you could PM me - I should love to have the details on your litters reared with Burns.

My little Beech always looked small in her classes, not that I show that much.   She's not filled out at all at 20 months, but neither did her granny, and she matured into such an elegant bitch.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

This whole thread is fascinating.  John mentioned that the puppies of 30 years ago would look completely out of place in todays showring. (At least that was my interpretation).  A word in my ear today from a judge follows on from this.  All my previous dogs were fed on normal everday kibble (Beta chicken)  I had never fed puppy food until the arrival of Bailey and Tia, who grew at an alarming rate, full height at just under 6 months. I have to admit I did start to panic a little. The growth rate stopped at 6 months and are now just slowly begining to broaden.  Ellie on the other hand was weaned straight onto raw, no puppy or junior kibble. Summer started on raw as soon as she came home after being fed on tripe and wholemeal mixer @ 12% protien. No puppy food.  Summers first show, judge said lovely pup but too baby baby.  Today at the Caledonian Summer took reserve, as steward was handing out tickets, judge came over and said quietly that she loved my baby but had to place the others for maturity, none were over 7 months, Summer looked like a 4 month old beside them, and judge was apologetic but maturity won.  Is this what show breeders are striving for? Ellie will also fall into this trap as she is progressing slowly and steadily, not with the huge 3inch growth spurt per month that hit Bailey & Tia. With the exception of Penny all my dogs have excellent hip score and are middle range of breed standard height. none were fed on puppy feeds.  Tia other hand is borderline height wise. x=ray on Wed!!!

Long story short, it will be interesting to compare my dogs, all same lines, different feeding in respect of protiens. 

Interesting for me too :)
I`m on second generation raw fed now & she`s growing slow, does anyone know what the average protein content would be of raw fed, suppose it wouldn`t be easy work out?

Christine, Spain.

Christine,

When you say growing slow, at what age would you expect raw fed pups to reach their adult height? I'm just curious as my dog is almost 9 months old and is still under the minimum height as given in the breed standard. He was fed raw for the first 9 weeks, changed onto naturediet puppy until just over 5 months, put onto adult until 6 1/2 months and then put back onto raw. (His slow growth/small height may have nothing to do with what he has been fed as he wasn't too well, hence having to be put on a complete). In contrast, my bitch was fed on kibble as a pup and reached her adult height at about 7 months old :( (give or take about half an inch).

Many Thanks

Christine, I have tried as best I can to average the protein content in my pups feeds.  Only by reading what is listed for specific feeds, ie whole chicken = xyz% protein, etc, I have tried to work on a weight per item method. As close as I can get is 12 to 32% which averages to 22% over a month, obviously some day they are getting a very high protein, other days low, but I have tried as best I can to balance meals on a 3day cycle.  My problem is that I have been unable to find out certain phospherous and calcium contents.  The 2 pups that I have weaned on raw are very much slower in growing, but there growth is more balance, no sudden spurts, all weight bearing bones seem to be growing at same pace, keeping a good level topline. Apart from looks, surely this has to be good for the hips and elbows, since neither are having to take extra strain, as they would during uneven growth spurts.

Strangely enough I telephoned for a shedule this morning and spent just under an hour talking to the gentleman about this very subject, his breed is Bullmastiff and friends are in Pyries.  They are also questiong the protein contents is feeds and both reverted to raw a few years ago.  He has noticed a distinct difference in his 4 litters all weaned on raw, and although one was made up, it took nearly 2 years longer than his other CH's which were fed on a major brand.  He was also saying that he was retired his wife says that research on this has taken up more time than his full time job.  He is going to send me his info, so will get back to you on this. Might take a while though as he has been researching this for a few years. (Only in Mastiff & Pyries though) but it will be worth reading. One thing he did say though, which was very interesting, he is a breed club judge and he is able to tell a low protein fed pup from high, There is a marked difference in the puppy stages under 14months. A very interesting gentleman, with a very wicked sense of humour too. I am meeting up with him and his wife on 28th March and really looking forward to it.

Just a thought...... When we do our weekly shopping we don't question how much protein, nutrients such as calcuim etc is in our food. We tend to buy and consume what we think will taste good, and on the whole most people are not doing too badly on this regime. So why do we worry so much about these levels of nutrients all the time with our dogs? I was given some years ago a paper written by an American vet, which stated that just as some people can't access nutrients in one form but can in another it is the same with dogs, and that individuals differ. In other words your body might be able to take nutrients from say... an apple, mine can't as I am allergic to them. So the nutrients apples have I have to find in other forms from other foods or perhaps vitamin tablets. Another example could be a vegetarian who has to supplement his or her diet with iron tablets.
With this in mind my dogs have for many years been fed on anything and everything going, dried complete, tinned foods tinned fish fresh meat and fresh fish fresh fruit and vegetables, plus a good mixer biscuit. The more variation the better, but they are as slow to develop as dogs fed only raw. I do wonder if we are worrying too much about balancing the dogs meals every time, and therefore limiting what they have access to.

<<<<<<<<<Just a thought...... When we do our weekly shopping we don't question how much protein, nutrients such as calcuim etc is in our food.>>>>>>

Polly, you are correct, most people dont do this.  I on the other hand have always had to do this.  As a Competative gymnast and triathlete, I have spent the last 40years doing this, not only for physical balance but for brain stimulation. My eating habits until 5 or so years ago were regimented by this. (I was at the stage of lifting washing powder of shelf and reading contents) :D Which is why I am finding it quite easy to transfer this over to feeding my dogs.  I never and still very rarely eat processed foods. I have no allerges but there are many foods which I simply do not like so yes, you do have to find another source, but the sources are there in other forms. Therefore the balancing act comes over a period of time.  In training periods my  balance would be taken over a period of 2 weeks or so, coming up to competitions it would intensify, on a daily basis.  This is not what we are looking for in our dogs.  What I am aiming for is a good balance over a reasonble period, for a stable growth rate at maintenance level. Which surely must only be of benefit to the dogs.

Interestingly, Foggy, since she whelped, has completely rejected any form of high protein  complete feed (Bit of a worry with all those mouths).

I've let her call the shots all along - she'll have rice pudding, scrambled egg on toast, sardines on toast (she does like her toast), game stew, which is always on the go, raw carrots , Guinness, and almost anything else.   But certainly turning her nose up at 32% highest quality very expensive complete.    

However, she did eat the Burns!   Interesting.    As if her whole system demanded something 'cooler'.   And she's been milking like a train.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

While out walking the dogs, was thinking about this thread, and remembered something my vet told me last year. Knowing that my lot get almost anything going, he asked me if I fed cooked meats, I said I didn't and asked why he had asked me. He then told me he had been reading up on hips and had seen a recent paper which said that feeding cooked meats, had a tendency to increase the scores of hips and incidence of hip displaysia.

ps still haven't asked Anne about the Burns, but will do.

Hi,
Finally got an answer from Anne yes she is using Burns on her FCR pups.
Polly

Polly - how old are they?

Has she reared a litter and followed them through to scoring?

Jo

Yes she has in the past, Junco's litter she raised on Salters, but has gone back to Burns for this litter. This litter is the same age as yours I think, but I know she has previously used Burns. Might be worth asking her about it.

Hi Jo,
leiborschy@btinternet.com if you want to e mail.
Diane

Just remembered! I think Anne Bishop was saying she raises her flatcoat pups on Burns as she has a litter of pups at the moment I'll ask her and let you know.

A breeder I know had a litter of gsd pups about 7 months ago. They were all weaned on Arden Grange and all thrived on it. She has just been informed by one of her puppy buyers that the pup has ocd. Could this be due to the high percentage of protein in the food?

I also weaned my puppies onto Arden Grange and as far as I know a few of the pups are still on it in their homes....I have never had any problems with it.

Dont mean to sound daft but what other factors could cause ocd?

Any help is appreciated.

OCD was always thought of as being an inherited condition. In recent times, some people, myself included have thought and suggested that there is rather more involved, given that there appears, to me anyway, rather more cases around than years ago. If there is a dietary component coming into play then I doubt it is solely to blame. As I said in an earlier post, my own personal feelings are that, just as I believe that over exercise can make THE EFFECTS of HD worse and limited exercise can help to prevent it being quite so severe, assuming the dog has a predisposition to HD, so the higher protein foods COULD exacerbate OCD, assuming the dog has a predisposition to OCD.

I stress this is just my own feelings. Other people may well agree but I don't know if there has ever been any tests to prove or disprove it.

Regards, John

John, have you considered passing your observations on to someone like the Animal Health Trust if they were aware that in your involvement with testing you are a bit of a conduit :) for information about these things they may give it enough consideration to spend a bit of their funds on a study.

Thanks for your opinion John.....I will let her know what you said.

Amy

I'll certainly be chatting to Peter when I see him in a couple of weeks time Isabel. Apart from being head of Ophthalmology at Potters Bar he is also head of Micro Surgery and is sure to know a little about trends in numbers of such things as OCD.

I know what I see but what I see is a small cross section of a small part of the country. Suppose for example, one of the members of my training society had a dog who was a carrier of OCD. Now supposing it was a great retriever and the owner decided to mate it. (Allowing that it is a carrier, not actually showing the defect, so the owner would not know there was a problem.) Now again, suppose the dog this person chose as a stud was also a carrier! (Can you see where I'm going?) Because the abilities of the dog are well known in my society several puppies could well be sold to our people and turn up at training. Some of these dogs would be carriers, some showing the defect. The ones showing we would know about but the carriers could well grow into good workers and the cycle starts again. Now, as a result of just one dog we have a local hot spot for OCD and what we see would be totally unrepresentative of the country as a whole.

I don't really believe this is what I'm seeing, for the reason that the KC and BVA considerer it an important enough to initiate testing. If, as I outlined above, it was just a local thing then there would be no reason to start the testing.

Regards, John

Yes it is very easy to get a warped perception of these things if one has personal experience of cases :) but I really think it would be worth persuading someone with a little money to at least do something like a pilot questionnaire of vets nationally to try to determine if they are seeing an increase to determining if more needs to be done to get to the bottom of the causes which would obviously be a great deal more expensive.

I have used Arden Grange Prestige right from weaning to 18 months to 2 years (and longer on a poor eater) with no joint problems in my medium size breed.  Have never used the Puppy version, though have used the Classic P_uppy.  For me at 32% it seemed to high powered, and I didn't see any point in feedign a food to only 8 weeks and changing to the next up.

Do you, as a breed, have an OCD problem Brainless? Again, as you know, my breed, Labradors, are gannets on four legs, which could well exacerbate the problem because of the tendency to put on weight. Just a thought.

Like you, I think 32% is way too high. I know protein is not the whole of the story but I would prefer something rather lower, myself.

Regards, John

This does really interest me.  I know of one dog in my breed that has a bad score and I know that he was fed a high protein dog food all through puppy hood and junior life.  The other couple in the breed that have a highish score must admit don't know how they were fed but one of the people brought up another one and she has one of the lowest scores in the breed !

It's certainly making me think differently and I know what I'lll be doing with my next litter.

Regarding increases though, do you not also feel that people are becoming more responsible and looking into things more ?

As I said to Brainless (I hate that name, your one of the least brainless people I know Barbara!) Do you have a predisposition for OCD in SWD's Diane?

Like I've said before, I had this argument with Waltham's Dietician at Crufts some years ago. She was literally telling me that I was being cruel and my dogs would grow up stunted and sickly if I did not feed their latest "Wiz Bang" puppy food! Polly on here was there at the time! Bone development is such an important part of puppyhood. Bones are naturally growing fast, but look at the young dogs in the ring these days. Then think back, or look at old photos, of dogs in the ring even 30 years ago. A six month old puppy today would certainly not be out of place in a junior ring 30 years ago but a six month old puppy from then would look a baby by todays standard. Is that good for the puppy? 

I really cannot say, hand on heart, that the theory I'm spouting is correct. Obviously the pet food manufacturers will tell you I'm wrong. But I'm positive the situation is getting worse and I believe I'm right. But in all things, "Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice!"

Regards, John

I find this all very interesting.

What would be considered a high protein content for a puppy food?   If Arden Grange's is 32% I consider this too high but would a 25% content be considered ok/too high etc.   The problem I have with my breed is that they tend to thrive on a high fat diet (15+%) and most higher fat puppy foods tend to be higher in protein too.    Even as adults a higher fat content tends to suit them, drop below 10% and the weight drops off of them quickly.

It would be a nice solution if one could stick withh a favourite food, and 'dilute' it with rice or some such, but presumably if you did the pundits would tell you that you're throwing the micronutrients out of kilter.    

I must say, I should be really interested in anyone rearing a litter on Burns, or the like.   It's a tremendous drop from your 32% protein to 22%.
And likewise, my flatcoats have always looked their best on a high fat diet as well, but can you get high fat combined with modest protein?

If not, why not?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I would also be very interested in hearing from anyone who has reared a puppy on Burns. It is what I feed my adults and am very happy with for them. I will have a new puppy later this year (hopefully) and am considering using it for her - large breed - slow growing. Any first hand experiences out there?

Janet

Hi Jo
This thread has really made me think now.
Let me know what you decide to do.
Last litter I weaned onto Royal Canin (super charged) but at 6weeks thought I would change them to Burns for all the reasons mentioned on this post. The pups were kept on the food in their new homes, and Bonnie for 18months. Bonnie although fairly tall has been very slow to mature and at 2yrs is still not anywhere near as mature as Lucie (Nutro and Raw) at the same age. From the puppies homes, I had several comments that the pups were thin, so many of them changed to other high protein completes.
After the litter I changed Lucie to Burns and she definately lost weight, but coat condition was excellent.

So, before Lucie came into season I put her on Arden Grange Prestige and she looks very well indeed, if not a little fat. Bonnie too has gained weight and body on it but I am sure is just too fizzy on it.
I was going to wean the pups onto it, now I am very unsure........
Michelle

I have switched Mia & Curtis over to AG's Salmon & Rice within the past 6 weeks after they had both been on Pets at Home complete.  I was very happy with how they looked on the PAH food especially Curtis who started to get some much needed weight on him, the AG has just added to the improvement in his allround picture.  It is 25% protein & 17% fat which too me is exactly what I'll be looking for in a puppy food if/when the next litter ever is planned.

Hi Michelle

Did you mate Lucie after all??

I think you've hit another point mentioning fizz.......little Albert was into serious fizz time this morning after he's nicked a fair bit of Foggy's high protein left-overs yesterday.
Is this what we really want just at the stage we're trying to make them see sense with their training?

There's no doubt the high protein is rocket fuel in many cases - how many rockets I can manage I'm not quite sure (12 pups...)

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

It is interesting as when I first came into dogs a mere 16 years ago puppy foods were no higher than 24% protein.  Most maintenance ones were 18 - 20%.

Also we have to remember nutreint density.  You do feed less of these dense foods, so the actual protein fat levels the animal gets should be about the same, what they are getting less of is volume and carbohydrate overall I suppose.  so maybe one of the problems is that it is far easier to OVEFEED these modern completes, and they should not be fed ad lib.

I would probably be right in saying that if you look at the general population(not to mention the human one) that most dogs one sees are overweight and many are obese (even in the ring).  I am pretty strict with watching my own dogs weight,a dn adjust accoringly before there is much fluyctuation.

I always advise my puppy owners to feed between half and 2/3rds what the manufactuireres adcise, and to meadure food.  My expereince shows me that pups in my breeds will be ating about 2/3r5ds the volume of food that an adult eats at 8 weeks and by 12 weeks will be on the same amount as an adult of the breed of a richer food. 

The amount required usually peaks over the next few weeks to no more than 20% more than an adult, and by 9 -12 months they should be down to about the same as the adults in volume )depending on body condition).  If they are tending to be well covered I then put them on adult food, if they are inclined to be rather lean then I allow them to stay on the richer diet another few months.

My pups that I keep also get plenty of excersise, and are usually on the same as adults by 9 months, but again I use common sense when they are babies, but tend to find they naturally won't overdo things.

No we don't have OCD although we've had 2 highish hip scores, luckily 2 that I've had done up to now haven't been bad at all, phew !

As far as I know it is not something that has occured in my breed.  In the USA some breeders ar now submitting for Elbows under OFA (including the breeder of our Import) but all the ones I have seen on the database have been certified normal, and a lot of the dogs in USA are kept far heavier than we would find acceptable in the showring.

A lot of Elkhounds are very foody.  I think it helps that they are not that heavy and being a cobby well knit sort of animal are rather like your preverbial rubber ball.  Bitches are only around 20kg, and males around 23kg.

Our hip status seems to be very similar to other Spitz breeds, with a Median of 12 and mean of 14  (of the nearly 500 scored a range of 0 to 61).  In a detailed analysis of the scores it seems there were literally only a handful of dogs scoring above 40.

Here's a thought for you.
There are specialist products for all manner of things. As an engineer I'll look at that for a start. In the early days of cars people put oil in them to make the moving parts more slippery. It allowed pistons to slide in cylinders and barings rotate without seizing up. There was only one grade of oil so that was what was used. Then it was realised that different parts of the engine involved differing stresses. Gears for example worked under extreme pressure and needed an oil which would not get squeezed out. Cylinders on the other hand worked at very high temperatures and needed oils which maintained their characteristics at great ranges of temperature. With new oils it's easy to see if they are doing the job, you just strip the engine and measure for wear with a micrometer. If a new specialist oil is developed you can measure its effectiveness almost immediately.

Years ago in dogs there was no dog food so people fed what they felt, and also what they had available. Sometimes it was just not good enough and Rickets was not unknown! Then the dog food manufacturers came around and feeding immediately improved! It was not long before these manufacturers started looking at specialist products and the area where these products could be sold profitably was in the field of racing Greyhounds. Big money was involved at the track both in prize money and betting so it was a lucrative area. Results were easy to measure, times improved and dogs using these specialised foods were winning races against previously faster dogs. Of course, as more people used these products the advantages were cancelled out, although kennels were still forced to use them or their dogs would finish miles behind! Manufacturers were laughing all the way to the bank. The fastest dogs were winning again except now the food bills had increased!

Once this specialist food was up and running the manufacturers turned their minds to the next lucrative market, puppies. Obviously puppies do have needs. Growth is fast, resources are used up producing bone and body. All of these things are dietary needs and can be supplied by the pet food manufacturers. But how do you measure it? You can't cut the dog up and look at the bone growth! And how many people mistake bulk for bone! What people CAN see is dogs growing fast, looking mature younger and the thought was, "Wow this works!"

Question:- would you pay more for puppy food if you could not see a difference? Answer, in 99% of cases it would be a resounding no! So the manufacturers had to do something which could provide a measure! Look at the wild. Obviously there are good years and bad. Sometimes, during periods of drought food is scarce and animals born during that time will be sickly, at others it is a time of plenty and animals do well. But at all times the food the young get is the same as the adult. Specialist food is unavailable in the wild, so is it needed for the domestic dog? Is the faster maturing dog food supplied because it's good for the dog, or is it just something put into the food to justify a higher price?

Regards, John

I think this is another theme that comes under the banner of (progress).  As for the mechanical and computerised components of a car, these are the product of human desires manufactured to the requirements of our needs.  Sounds familiar!!! So yes we can tamper, improve, modify etc. We can even trash the concept and start again. 

The dog on the other hand, is not a product that we have devised, designed and built, there is no blueprint. We can genetically modify specific breeds for looks, colour, and even design. But, we cannot relegate the blueprint to wastepaper bin and start again. If we get it wrong, the breed suffers.

As you have implied, the manufacturers rubbed their hands in glee all the way to the bank, but at what cost to us and the dogs.  <<<<<Question:- would you pay more for puppy food if you could not see a difference? Answer, in 99% of cases it would be a resounding no! >>>>>  If you had asked me this question 6 months ago, I may have said yes, strange as it may seem.  I have never fed puppy food to any of my 2 except as mentioned, Tia & Bailey, why?  after registering on CD a year ago, many, many threads were puppy food related and I in my foolish wisdom thought OMG I should be feeding this stuff.  I have learned my lesson. I have seen the difference in my dogs and I do not like it one iota. Dont get me wrong, my dogs are doing very well and look good, but they are still puppies and look like mature adult dogs. In hindsight I should have carried on with the type of feeding I have been doing for the past 40 odd years. 

<<<<<Years ago in dogs there was no dog food so people fed what they felt, and also what they had available. Sometimes it was just not good enough and Rickets was not unknown!>>>>> Yes, but owners often suffered from Rickets as well.  This has now been all but eradicated with healthy eating, even if it has to be supplemented with vitamins and minerals etc. We have been educated. And with the onset of commercially produced foods we have the highest rate of obesity and osteoporosis for nearly 50 years. Surely there is a happy medium.

So...Surely with this education and wealth of knowledge we should be able to feed our dogs with, a food that is balanced, healthy and nutritious, without resorting to the overpriced, modified feed that MAY promote an imbalanced growth of our dogs.

<<<<<Specialist food is unavailable in the wild, so is it needed for the domestic dog? Is the faster maturing dog food supplied because it's good for the dog, or is it just something put into the food to justify a higher price?>>>>>>   Good question John, I wonder who has the answer!!!!!!

Just scrubbed out my reply cos it didn`t make sense even to me!!!!!!
Sorry, I`m tired & not able to put my thoughts together, bit like the body is willing but the brains dead... get back to it tomorrow I hope :)

Christine, Spain.

A lot of mine never make sense C as you will have noticed! :d

Had our AGM today so am just going to partake of the liquid pressie I received!!

Best wishes, John

Can`t say I have J....least not like my senseless rabble, was so embarresed had to remove it

I`m partaking of a little thing called called tia right now, had a brill day & didn`t think of dogs for whole afternnon, withdrawl symptoms setting in now tho ;( :D :D

Christine, Spain.