I know I have let myself in for a whole load of grief with this one, but I have agreed to try, so here goes.

At training class a lady has a 1 year old black lab dog. Muscles on his neck and legs like you would not believe, because he has been allowed to pull. She cannot hold him, her husband, tall and well built also struggles. For the last three weeks he has been on a halti which is now hurting him so badly, it does not stop him pulling. He has had no training at all, fights against sits, etc. On the halti he salivates so much there are pools of water all around him. He is one big powerful dog.

I have agreed to take him on a one to one basis (I know, I know) as no-one else will. I know what I need to do, but is there anything that could help make it a little easier. Never had one as determined and obstinate at this before.

I know its back to basics, its the powerful thing that bothers me. His nature is great by the way so I have no worries on that score.

Kay

I've only just joined this forum so forgive me if I go over old ground that you might have touched on time and time again.  I walk rescue dogs, having had my old lab die 3 years ago and have not had another dog since.  I also have horses and have used clicker training to great advantage with horses and my old dog.  My lab would do anything for food so clicker training was easy with her.  Would this be of any help to your dog in question.  I know that when I'm walking a great dane x from the centre, she is a great puller unless I rummage in my pocket and then her nose is directed entirely at me and she walks much to heel.  Sorry if all this has been done before.

Hi Sutton, thanks for your reply. I dont have a problem with training as such, I have trained my dogs as gundogs and obedience,(not comp) just to KCGC gold level. I have 6 Labs. With gundogs I do not use food in training and to be honest I am totally hopeless at the clicker training. Food has been tried with him, but he lunges so hard that he has knocked his owner over on several occasions. this dog has had no training Whatsoever, not even the basics. His owners were seriously mis-informed that they shouldnt start training until pup was around a year old. Now he is a year old, large, well muscled, heavy framed dog, probably weighs around 35/36kilo without an ounce of fat on him. He also twists himself round to the front and pulls similar to a horse on reign for first time, if you can picture what I mean. So he is using his full weight and digging his heels in. I had to sit down on the ground to stop myself from moving. Thanks for your input, and if you have any more suggestions I would be grateful to hear them :D
Kay

And ps. welcome to the forum :D

hiya, I know this sounds obvious but we have found it really effective after reading an article in our dogs.  when Tally pulls we just stop. we go nowhere!..she has slowly learnt that in order for her to get somewhere she must come back to heal and wait...we then walk on.  it does take lots of patience and we get nowhere fast..but she did start to twig quite quickly.  we have done lots of training with treats KC bronze and silver but it just led to her staring at us waiting for the treat, so if she decided that she didnt want the treat she would just pull...the article also said that you shouldnt talk to them too much and also let them sniff if they want to...obviously only wihin reason!! lots of luck kellie

I know im knew to the dog world so dont know much but maybe the owners could start working with him in regard to food ie to leave his dinner till told to go ahead and also to take titbits gently then maybe this could be worked into the lead training?

Good luck

Personally, I'd tackle this one using target training to train the dog to walk beside the owner, without a lead to start with, then add the lead.  I'd be looking to break all connection between walking beside the owner and discomfort.

HTH

Whats target training? 

Thanks Digger, hadnt even crossed my mind. I had tunnel vision and was focusing on the lead aspect.

Juliemil, A "target" is anything that the dog must focus on and perform some action towards. Attention is a form of targeting, where the dog is focusing her gaze on your face (or hands). "Come" is a form of targeting in which the dog must find the area right in front of you. In agility, dogs must step within a certain safety area called a contact zone on many obstacles, to prove that they are dismounting correctly and not just flying off the top of a high dog-walk or A-frame.The dog can show her focus on the target in many ways. The most common are a nose-touch or a paw-touch.

There are many specialized uses for targeting. In competition obedience, a dog is trained to move away from the handler on a "go out" in targeting. They're also asked to retrieve certain objects. As mentioned above, agility competitors must touch a contact target.

What about pet dogs? Two of the best uses for targeting is teaching a dog to walk by your side, and to go to her bed on command. It's possible to teach a dog to walk at your side just by rewarding her for doing so (and of course removing the reward for walking anywhere else), but it may be that "at your side" is too vague for many dogs. If they have something to focus on, they can immediately know where they're supposed to be. So, if you teach your dog to follow your hand (or a stick in your hand, for a shorter dog) with her nose, she will be perfectly placed and ready to reap your rewards. As Digger has suggested it is after this stage has been reached that the lead is added

Finding and moving to a special place are forms of targeting. Sometimes you just want to get your dog to move to a particular place - up on the couch next to you, on to the floor, maybe just scooting over a few inches to make room for someone else. Targeting will help.

Targeting is the first step of retrieving, as well. Your dog can't bring something to you if she can't find it first - and it doesn't matter if it's a ball, Frisbee, or stick, or your car keys, TV remote, or missing cordless phone.

The beginning of target training takes advantage of the dog's natural curiosity. Most dogs will sniff or even touch your palm if you hold it out to them - especially if you've just been handling food treats. Simply click and reward your dog for each touch. It helps if you hold it close to their nose, maybe just below their nose level. If you want to eventually transfer the nose-touch to some inanimate object - like a target stick, or margarine lid, simply put some food smell on that, too, and hold it cupped in your hand when you start.

Repeat this a few times Make sure you reward this easy first step quite a few times before making it any harder.

Once you have the initial touching fairly confident, hold the target out a little bit further - a few inches away, or just enough for the dog to really stretch out her neck (or leg) to touch it. Click and reward those touches, repeating a few times.

Now start varying the position of the target relative to the dog, and relative to you, and you relative to the dog. Hold it out slightly to one side, then the other; hold it an inch or two above or below the original level. Hold the target out while you stand, sit, or kneel; while you face the dog or have the dog at your side. Make it clear that it's touching the target that is causing the click and reward, not any of the other factors your dog is seeing.

Stationary Targets vs. Moving Targets
There are two different types of targets: stationary and moving ones. Stationary targets stay where they are, and the dog must move to reach them and then can stay put there. Moving targets move around, and the dog must follow them.  The agility contact zone, and the dog's bed are all stationary targets that the dog must move to in order to touch. Your hand, your front, your eyes, and target sticks are all moving targets. The dog must move to follow your hand or target stick as you walk or lead her around. The dog must come towards you to target your front on a "come" command, and move to your line-of-sight to pay attention to you.

To train a moving target, start moving the target slowly as the dog approaches it so that she has to follow it. Start with having her follow it for a second, then for two, then several, before she gets her click and treat.

For both types of targets, gradually build up the distance or difficulty, occasionally throwing in an easier (shorter) practice, and being sure to "jackpot" especially good successes.

Hi Kay
Just signed in and I certainly agree with Digger, I would train the dog off lead - you run into all sorts of problems with trying to match physical strenght as it gives the dog the wrong impression, and lets him know that he is physically stronger.

Gosh, you've got your work cut out - but he sounds like he is well switched on and will probably respond well to your training.

have you work out a training programme for the owners as well - sounds like he has them well trained.

Good luck

Hi Patricia, I agree, Digger prompted me with the training I used for Bailey, I posted many months ago that Bailey constantly watched my hands for hand signals so much, that when in the showring he sided on to me and crab walked. I was able to correct this with target training, ie: the riding crop that I used was actually just touching the side of his face to keep his focus ahead instead of me. He learned that when I had the riding crop he faced front, when I didnt have the crop he watched for signals. The crop was then replaced with the word ahead.

As for training this Lab. It is the owners who will be doing most of the training, but I need to make sure I get it right so that my instructions for them will not be misleading or wasted. 

Thanks for your explanation. Learning so much!

You are welcome :D but now you see why I very rarely answer questions, why use 10 words when 2 or 3 hundred will do :D

Kayc.  Now I'm confused.  This is exactly what  I do with clicker training and I thought you said that you'd tried this and you didn't get on well with it.  You seem to know all the theory very well though :-))

I like confusing people :D, This was my explanation for Julie on how to do it, I am no good at using the clicker since I am simply far too slow in the response. Personally, instead of the clicker I give load of cuddles and praise, which is more natural to me so my response is faster, While praising I usually have one hand on the dogs back saying gooooood boy/girl and pop treat into mouth, that way they associate, good response/praise/a good rub/treat. Hope this make sense now :D

How are things going with this lab?

Hi Carene, He is doing great.  His owners are working well with him and are being firm and consistant. He is walking very well by their side, (although not to heel) and is tolerating my slip lead round his neck, down his shoulders and left loose, although when held he starts to pull. So we are leaving that for a while yet. He is very responsive to target training. He has come on tremendously in just 2 weeks, I will give him another couple of weeks of this and then he will be introduced to a new lead. So far so good :D.  It is such a shame that his owners were told not to do any training with him until he was at least a year old, by this time he was totally out of control. But he is a great dog and seems to want to please,

Kay

Well done, that's really good news. :) :) :)

He is now walking on a lead and doesnt even know it. :D . His owners have worked on him religiously, firmly and consistantly, all their hard work and effort (I mean that literally) has paid off in just 5 weeks.  He has been walking on a loose lead now since Saturday and hasn't turned an eye.

What wonderful owners to work so effectively with him (and ofcourse they must also have a wonderful trainer ;))  Glad to hear it's going so well, thanks for the feed back, wish we got it from more posters,

Only just noticed this thread! Targets can be so useful with some dogs. When we were training one Of Polly's Flatcoats the stud dog owner suggested as a target, a length of 4X2 between the eyes!

Seriously though, I have recently had a Weim at club where the owner had been using a target stick almost right from day one and the dog was so focused on it! I remember reading an article many years ago, either Mary Roslin-Williams or it could have been Peggy Grayson about using a stick as an aid to heelwork training. I must admit its not something I usually do, possibly because I never allow my dogs to get away with it in the first place.

Regards, John

<<<<<a length of 4X2 between the eyes!>>>>>>>

Was considered at one point John, that or a rubber mallet :D

I wish I could take the credit for him, but his owners are the ones who shed the sweat and tears, lots of it.  But there are a few good things to come out of this as well.  He has stopped lunging for treats, realising that he doesn't get any reward for unwanted behaviour. His whole manner has changed. He is a much happier dog altogether. And needless to say, so are his owners.  

As you well know Kay. A well trained dog is always happier. They know the house rules and find that by obeying them they almost never get told off and walks are a pleasure for both humans and dogs. I always tell people, I never take my dogs for a walk! We go for a walk together.

Best wishes, John

Thought this thread could be worth resurecting ;-)

although perhaps a mod could change the heading to add " target training"

> Thought this thread could be worth resurecting

Definately, what a great read :)

I am so glad you brought this topic to the front. It has given me a way to go with my young munster bitch. She is so focused on birds just now that I am hoping this will help her focus on me instead. I missed the topic first time round, so thank you.

Thank you Kay - I have started to use target training for agility contacts which were beginning to slip due to over enthusiasm. It's made a big difference :-)