Im new here so please forgive me if I come across wrong but the first thing I did when I joined was typed in "Irish staff" to see what came up as obvously that is my main interest and the breed I like best.
Well, I noticed that most of the posts seem to either get locked or end up in huge arguments over nothing.

Why is this?
This type of dog is one of the most loyal and loving dogs you can own. They may not be KC reg but I dont think that should matter. we are all dog lovers theres breeds I dont like but I try not to slate them off or the people who keep them/ breed them etc. If we all liked the same things life would be very dull.

I also wonder at the big fuss about paying extra for a blue staff. Now I paid a good price for mine, but considering ive seen blues sell for £1000+ I think I got a bargain to be honest!!! :-)
What breeders charge for their pups is up to them, live and let live, no one would pay the price if they really didnt want to would they?
there are a few people who breed blues and dont charge that much so if people dont want to pay they will go elsewhere.

harlequin great danes can command twice the price of "normal" colours but I never see any threads commenting on that? Is that because they are pedigree KC reg dogs? or is it because they dont have the "dubious" history that Irish staffies have?

I really think a bit more tolearnce is needed here folks, there are many different paths in life and everyone has to tread his own, I think Irish staffs deserve a bit more than they get, they are brilliant dogs and once you have owned one they hold a special place in your heart forever.
So lets not get into big debates about it, if you dont like them fair enough, but they are getting more and more popular so the least they deserve is a little bit of respect where its due :-)

In an ideal world people would look at thing like this but in some posts people make comments that others may find wrong, silly or reflect in a bad way and things get quickly heated.  Thats just life I suppose, most people are grown up enough to realise that everybody can have a difference of opinion without it meaning you have to dislike the other person. 

My biggest gripe is people using the term "Irish" like these dogs are a seperate breed and many people talk about them like they are a seperate breed when that is not the case as I have said many a time they are just a variation in type.  I have owned this type of dog (the ones people refer to as Irish) for years and always just refered to them as Staffords or Old Time Staffords as that is what they essentialy are.  If you look at documents going back to the 80s the name "Irish" really only became in vogue in the late 1980s and nowadays any tom, dick or harry wants to own or is breeding "irish" staffords.  Anyway that was off topic.  I dont think increasing popularity is a good thing in many cases, look at the media attention they have had in the past, rightly or wrongly they start to label these dogs as a pseudonym for APBT (which we know is all true) and that is where the confusion lies with the name Irish Stafford (ISBT).  I mean for the most part these dogs have been bred in England for decades and before they came to Ireland they came from English stock so really how Irish are they?

Anyway off topic, people will always have differences of opinion and will have their own preferences to what dogs are good and bad.  I do feel that there is a ceratin amount of snobbery from the KC circles towards unregistered dogs in general or unregistered breeds but that I guess is the way it will always be:-)

I agree with you about the "Irish" thing but since thats what most people call them, it makes sense to use that phrase so that people know what your talking about. If you say Irish staff most people know what one is, but if you say old tyme staff some people think you mean a staff crossed with an old tyme bulldog all very confusing isnt it?

I agree, maybe a name change would be in order? but then if you remember they tried to chage the name of the pitbull years ago to try and improve their PI but no one would have it and thats why they are still called pitbulls :-)

Good to find something we can agree on though ileach :-)

Why would people confuse an Olde Tyme Staff with a cross?
Olde Tyme simply suggests a recreation of the breed from back in the days when it was a working dog and this reflects in the difference in type between this and the show type. Function and fancy...

Why would people confuse an Olde Tyme Staff with a cross?
Olde Tyme simply suggests a recreation of the breed from back in the days when it was a working dog and this reflects in the difference in type between this and the show type. Function and fancy... 

...because to recreate the old type dog they cross in other breeds I believe...hence it is a cross breed is it not!
Archer

Thank you for that Archer, but what I simply meant was a cross illustrated in the post as being with an Olde Tyme Bulldogge. I should have made that clearer in my reply.
All dogs are crossed regardless of pedigree, they all started somewhere, it's just some have headed for the worse due to fancy.

Not sure if i agree with the not using the 'irish' name - personally, i would be a lot happier if they dropped the stafford and became irish bull terriers. This would to a certain extent remove the grey area in which a lot of Pits are currently masked. Although they are in many ways of staff type, they were bred for a different purpose and in a different environment which to all intents and purposes does IMO make them a breed in their own right.

Andy

Intersting thread. I have no problems with ISBT's - but I have heard of a blue changing hands for £6K. Which rather puts the dane point into perspective

You ought to see a pic of the one I know Chloe, you wouldn't give a thank you for it on looks alone, never mind its temperament in the flesh, and the owners paid a HUGE amount for it because of its colour.
DAwn.

I must admit that I havent heard of one selling for 6K - that really is far too much, I have to agree.

Sorry you have met ONE bad example of the breed/colour dawn, that does happen sometimes though doesnt it? I have seen some absolutely awful looking border terriers which look nothing like breed standard, and have snappy and aggressive temperaments, there is a gentleman who lives not far from me and he breeds border terriers for show and work, and they are always putting their hackles up and growling and showing agreesion towards any other dog they meet. Cant say they are very good examples of the breed at all, so it just shows you all breeds can have good and bad specimens doesnt it :-)

I wonder if when blue ISBT's are fetching such money folk who breed other dogs together (staff x danes for example) aren't trying to replicate something similar without the cost and then be able to sell them on for £££? Does that make sense?

:D :D :D

I agree IBS, there are far too many Borders with unsuitable temperaments being bred from, and in an identical way to the blue staff, because they are being bred to supply a market!  I totally agree with you (honest :D)

My point with one of the blues I know, was the fact that the owners paid a HUGE sum of money for a dog with blue hair!  not because it was a thought out mating of excellently conformed dogs with superb temperaments, bred by people who have the breeds welfare at heart.
Dawn.

Yes it does make sense

Well, if someone could breed a cross that looked just like an ISBT (which can't be registered - correct?) who's to say its an ISBT at all?

I have tried to point out many times how easy it is to pass off a tall Staffy cross as an ISBT Chloe but usually get shot down for it and told I dont know what Im on about :rolleyes:

Just like the DDA, who REALLY knew what a Pit Bull was?
Dawn.

"I wonder if when blue ISBT's are fetching such money folk who breed other dogs together (staff x danes for example) aren't trying to replicate something similar without the cost and then be able to sell them on for £££? Does that make sense?"

the dane x staff i have seen wouldnt pass as an ISBT it is a very big dog compared with most staffies.
Why would it be cheaper to breed staff x danes? I would have thought it would work out dearer as danes are big dogs to feed and expensive to buy if you want a blue or harlequin?
I really think you need to see this type of cross before you can pass comment on them. How do you post pictures on here? is it allowed?

the dane x staff i have seen wouldnt pass as an ISBT it is a very big dog compared with most staffies

Maybe, maybe not.

Why would it be cheaper to breed staff x danes? I would have thought it would work out dearer as danes are big dogs to feed and expensive to buy if you want a blue or harlequin?

Not if you already own the stud and your mate owns the bitch.

I really think you need to see this type of cross before you can pass comment on them. How do you post pictures on here? is it allowed?

I don't have to see something to have an opinion on it. The fact is that I used that cross as an example. I am pretty sure it could then be crossed with something else at some point to get something similar but not quite an ISBT. And if they are that popular - I'm sure someone else would buy it.

Out of interest - whats the predominant colour in Danes x Staffs - are they brindle, harlie, fawn, black....or blue?

Ive got a blue ISBT and shes ace!...Shes not good with big dogs but the most gentle thing ever around people...I couldnt recommend them highly enough!

"I don't have to see something to have an opinion on it"

I think that is a very narrow minded view of things to take Chloe - I prefer to judge by what I see for myself not what other people tell me or what I read in books etc :-)

I cant say what the predominant colour is because I have only seen a couple, I would imagine the colour depends on what colour the parents are and what color genes they are carrying but if a harl is used you will get a few harl/merles in each litter that is a certainty.

theres not much point continuing this conversation cos you have allready made up your mind and closed your eyes and ears to the possibility that this cross can have something to offer so I am not going to try and convince you otherwise :-)

A crossbreed can offer you nothing but uncertainty.  there are plenty of dogs of uncertain breeding in the dogs homes to more than fulfill the need for one offs. 

You want to know what your are getting get a purebred from someone who knows and cares what they are breeding with.

'crossbreed can offer you nothing but uncertainty'

...slightly sweeping statement....please....

Past owner of mongrels and pedigrees
LEX

I've owned both too Lex all lovely dogs but the difference was with the pedigrees they pretty much turned out just as anticipated not only in looks but also temperament with the crossbreeds it was a case of wait and see!

I cannot see how my statement is incorrect, with a crossbreed or mongerl you have no idea waht you are getting.  Wtih an adult wyou know what they will look like but still have no idea of likely behavioural and character traits, which are fairly predicatable in most breeds.  These factors are very important for many people when considering if a particular type of dog will fit into their lives and family.

Nope, can't see anything wrong with that. Any crossbreed is a complete gamble as it could take after either parent, or anywhere in between.

(Past owner of much-loved 2nd generation mongrel, so no axe to grind)
:)

Ok,

I guess so with regard to appearance at least, but I feel confident that there are very few peds or cross breeds with whom temprament would be a gamble, if taken on from a pup and well socialised....no prob, assuming some experince in dog training and obedience, its what you make it to a large extent. Surely...?

You can do a lot with training and socialising, yes, but the temperament of the parents and the characterists of the breed play a large part too for instance I rear my dogs pretty much all the same but my Cockers will invariably behave differently to the terrier I had, with my parents Lab/Collie/Terrier/Other bits cross we just had to wait and see what temperament she had which could have been a problem as despite generally looking more like a Lab she was quite a feisty thing more like a terrier in temperament and would not have suited a family with small children who may have bought her hoping for more of a Lab

Sorry, I disagree. I have, not through choice, reared litter brothers. They have had the same upbringing, socialisation and training. Their temperaments are entirely different.

This is purely down to genetics - and that with both parents of the same breed!

Yep - I'm in agreement there JeanGenie - I have owned dogs with identical breeding/rearing/socialising - one went on to be a PAT dog and  was the most laid back BSD I have ever known - the other was a  hyped up looney who was nervous of anything new and live on his nerves all the time - physically they were identical but temperamentally they were like chalk and cheese .

Yvonne

I have to say the dogs that have had the most loving temps, in my experience, are the dogs that have been through rescue. Whether peds or crosses, once you earn their trust you seem to get back so much more. :)

IBS. Really, I don't need to open my eyes and ears to what this cross "has to offer" because I have everything I need in one side of the cross - the dane - and I have no need, nor desire, nor requirement to go looking for something I perceive to be missing. To me, they are already the perfect dogs - so you go on defending the crossing of them all you like :)

OK...

I guess all our experiences are different. I have experienced differences in personality, of course. But within a certain boundary whereby you would still know that the dog was in my pack...time spent with the young pups before accepting them will also allow you to make a better judgement.

Sorry, I don't understand the post? Can you explain for me? Thanks :)